Zenister

no i'm saying that the real goal could have easily been political change.. that cannot be false and very evidently MANY people are willing to undergo a great deal of suffering and hardships for exactly that.. the myths surrounding simply support the political agenda, if they admitted they 'made the story up' to attract followers, they would be undermining their real cause... you have no real idea that anyone actually saw what the gospels claim or that they really believed it, you are making an assumption because YOU believe it... quite easily a core group could spread a story and have it take hold of the imagination of the people who heard it, who then spread it with the fervor of a 'true believer'. Particularly a good story, and there is no doubting that the 'passion' is a good story... in a primitive culture the best story ALWAYS grows faster than the truth... the examples i used are EXACTLY the same... anyone fanatical to a cause will do a number of 'unbelievable' things to further that cause... including dying.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

this one ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

your savior got off rather easy as far as crucifixion goes.. so i guess everyone who didnt get stabbed in the side has a more worthy cause? simply because they suffered more? its a ridiculous argument... if your going that route i believe the monks in tibet have you beat.. there really arent many stronger more significant statements you can make supporting your cause than to willingly set yourself ablaze to make a point.... you may doubt because its something you wouldnt do yourself, but quite clearly fanatics of all stripes will do whatever they can to further their ends... you are accepting on faith that their ends were spiritual.. they could have easily been political instead, and they would die just as well... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

lots of people die just a fervently for political causes... that says nothing about the worthiness of the cause, it only shows the extremes to which the believer is willing to go to further it... as i pointed out earlier... the heretics died just as well as the 'believers', and has been pointed out many times before... so do the islamic suicide bombers nearly everyday lately.. are they just as right in your mind? why not? because you have a belief different from theirs? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

99.. ran into this guy there... he's an interesting character and strangely enough made me think alot about the direction i was going... it has changed alot... Halcyon does some great overveiws of every year...if your thinking of going i recommend checking out his site... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

to grow. to enjoy every moment, (you only get each one once, why would you waste any of them? firsts ARE important skydivers realize this...) to amuse myself, and those who chose to be around during the moments... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

the testimony of believers isnt worth a whole lot when your really attempting to analyze the facts... If you ask people who WANT to believe in Aliens "what happened at Roswell" you'll get answers that support their belief..... ever hear the term ' unreliable witness? what possible reason could they have for embellishment, or outright fiction? couldnt be that they were trying to create a church and change the political and religious forces currently controlling their land could it??.... having a good recruiting story only furthers that goal... self referencing ‘sources’ are worthless when it comes to objective truth.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

So are you saying IF there was a God who spoke EVERYTHING into creation, we should be able to fully understand him?? Sounds pretty prentencious (sp?)to me. of course if said God created humanity in his own image, (and its fairly well accepted that the mental, spiritual image is implied here, not the physical one) then yes, it is perfectly feasable that those creations would come to understand everything that God did as well... there is a school of thought that believes that the entire point in Creation was divinity attempting to recreate itself... even the core christian belief is that humanity's 'goal' is to become closer, more 'God like' through the practice and participation in the divine mystery, the blood sacrifice of God 'himself' being the doorway by which we reach him.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Before bringing him down after having been crucified, he was speared in the side and bled out with the intent of finishing him off in case he wasn't already dead. He was then closely guarded by the highly disciplined Roman soldiers. It would have been a very bad political move on their part to either have left him with a chance of survival or to have his body stolen. The determination of death in this instance wouldn't have been a problem even for 1st Century medicine. Not a very obscure case here Bill. I might could see your case if he became ill with something most people die from and he was carried away to die or something and really didn't. Kind of like in the movie "The Princess Bride." [British accent] He's not dead...... He's only "mostly dead." [/British accent] well the disciples claimed such, of course outside their testimony there isnt much to back any of those assertions... and that story sells soooo much better than "he slipped in the tub" ... i'm sure there are one or two branch davidians wandering around who will tell you all about their messiah as well... it is amazing what the human mind will create to justify its actions and beliefs... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Yeah, people voluntary die all the time for beliefs that they KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT to be a lie. Yeah, sure, all the time. Notice, I didn't say think or believe, I said what the KNOW .. Ie Jesus' apostles. the early church had serious problems with the fact that the heretics were dying just as well as the 'true believers' (look it up if you doubt) .... and the lions didnt care what you believed, it was all meat to them... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

still talking about the same things... how you do anything reveals details about your personality...be it walking, dancing or even skydiving... experience is simply what shapes that.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

heh CarRW was on the activity list my first night out playing with the Kapowsin crowd... I love that game.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Ok...I've got to ask...where are you wearing the sock? seen the chili peppers photo shoot? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

anyone else find it amusing that the "check spelling" function knows how to spell "stripper" but not "skydiver"? ok... maybe the cold medicine is making me delirious and i should go back to bed... nevermind... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

the manner in which you do anything says a lot about who you are... i would say however, that skydiving made me examine everything in a manner different from that which i had prior... if you maintain an open mind every new, powerful experience should have that effect.. many people try to fit whatever they experience into their lives as they currently are, afraid of what change represents perhaps... i prefer to allow experience to shape who am i rather than hold stubbornly to a preconceived pattern.... two qoutes come to mind... "if you know the Way broadly you will see it in all things" & "you can never step into the same river twice" -Musashi ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I'm sure your well read enough to be aware that Livy was not present at that battle some 300 years before he was born and in addition was well known to take artistic license and endow his historical figures with the traits he believed essential to the roman character... there is as much fiction and propaganda in Livy as there is history.. the events may have occurred more or less as he records them however the actual words and motivations he ascribes to them are historically suspect... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

your absolutely right.. we've broken the eggs now we have to make the omelet no matter what the original reasons.. it would however be nice if the civilian idiots in the administration would publicly admit that they were very wrong when they told the military commanders to " shut up and color" and that it would not take anywhere near as many troops as they stated it would..... of course our current leadership cannot admit they EVER make/made any mistakes... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

lol... why not? not matter what you do your still 'behaving'.. behaving badly perhaps but... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

lol... but even i know you have her other shoe... you havent been in my dryer have you? oh well i can always do my red hot chili pepper impression ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

but i'm still only wearing one sock.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

far to much... its one of the reasons i still look for better answers instead of settling for religious platitudes... dont get me wrong i understand the social support structure offered by 'the church' (of your choice) and why many people cling to it in times of trouble, but that is a social phenomenon.. you can find the exact same kind of support without all the "its God's will" or "she's in a better place" cliches, in any tightly knit group.... just look at a dropzone.. or even the support offered here when one of our members suffers a loss or tragedy... that is human nature, not divine guidance... the desire to believe and the emotional eagerness to accept any form of consolation during those times doesnt make any of the dogma the church exposes any more believable... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

very nice.. whos the hottie behind you? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

yup that is exactly what i was thinking when i heard they were walking off... if you got some good footage you might even be able to sell the video/pictures back ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i've read everything C.S Lewis has ever published, and have most of them on the shelves behind me..... despite his abilities as a writer, he doesnt have any better answers for the fundamental contradictions inherent to the christian mythos, than you have repeated here. i'm sorry but "God only knows" is not an answer, it is a cop out, a non answer designed for children i.e. "because I said so..." the next question you should ask for your poll is: of those who believe in a supreme evil, where do you believe it came from if not from God? and if it does not originate with God, how can you claim he still is O3? i'd say i've been where you are.. till the light of reason revealed the darkness and inherent uncertainty christianity was trying to get me to accept on faith...cant explain it? just claim its God's will... as if that answers anything... might as well claim the trees are sneezing to create the wind... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I agree, 12 hour work days are Evil.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.