BruceSmith

Thanks, Three-Seven-Seven. Kinda missed the place, know what I mean? I do miss some voices here, like Meyer and Galen that are on the other site, but the visceral attacks here are like potato chips - hard to eat just one.

Yup.

I'm back.

Bobby, I gave 100,000 words and 400 pages. Direct interviews or correspondence with 14 FBI agents involved in the case and 2 PIOs. 11 other SAs were contacted and researched. Who you got? Geestman and his sister? C'mon, Bobby. For the record, here's who I discussed Norjak with: 1. Larry Carr 2. Curtis Eng 3. Ralph Himmselbach 4. Dorwin Scheuder 5. Mike McPheters 6. George Grotz 7. John Detlor 8. Lee Dormuth 9. Mary Jane Fryar 10. Nick O'Hara 11. Gary Tallis 12. Bob Sale 13. Sid Rubin 14. Russ Calame Plus Ayn Dietrich and Robbie Burroughs. Still trying: 1. Charlie Farrell ( family) 2. Ron Nichols 3. Ralph Hope 4. Eric Muelller 5. J Earl Milnes ( family) 6. Nicole Devereaux 7. Ron Glasser 8. Tom Manning ( family) 9. Dan Steele 10. Julius Mattson ( family) 12. Red Campbell ( family) 13. Bernie Rhodes (federal sentencing officer for McCoy)

Well, since it's your football I guess we have to let you be quarterback. But remember, I have the pen and I get the last word. Those are the rules of the bigger game. I didn't make them, but that's the way it is. To whit: You're still dodging my questions and that gets my full attention. Do you call such behavior "moderating" or is it something else? Such as aiding and abetting a cover-up? Bottom Line: Do you wish to have only a safe and sanitized discussion here or do you desire something more meaningful, which is what I'm offering. Is that clear?

Bottom line, Bobby. Do you think a SOG trooper could make it to the ground wearing loafers and a business suit? If you say yes, then why wouldn't such an operative wear the best disguise possible to get himself on a 727 undected in PDX at Thanksgiving.

No. It appears you did not read what I wrote. Here, let me post it one more time. There is no loophole here. There is no "permission" for you to attempt to find one. If you'd ALL like to be banned that's okay by me because every single one of you have committed more than one offense. It's serially ridiculous for any of you to whine or moan about anyone else, so just stop. Well, let me pose a DB Cooper-based theory to you Quade, on the behavior of the posters here, their role in Norjak, and the broader question of the impact this forum has in the Norjak investgation. How do you suggest that we investigate Jo? She claims that her husband confessed to being DB Cooper, yet she has no conclusive proof. Utilize the scientific method. I really don't understand what your problem is. http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml If her conclusions don't match yours, the solution isn't in who is yelling the loudest. The solution is who HAS the best proof. Stop trying to yell the loudest. Try to find the best proof and you can safely ignore everything else. You don't "win" by being the biggest loudmouth. Your actions are pretty loud, too, Paul. So is your silence. You dodged my questions. To whit: 1. Why do you treat Jo differently than others? 2. Why did you kick off Snowmman and Galen, for what are arguably minor infractions of proper conduct in public. All Galen did, really, was ask Ckret if he was posting on company time. They are major investigators in Norjak, and you have crippled us - for what? 3. How do you recommend exploring Jo's 17-year contribution to the Norjak investigation? Just write her off as a crazy lady and move on? Don't you wonder how she got Tina's address and phone number before anyone else? Is she that good an investigator? Or did she have help, which is what she claims. That then begs the question of why anyone would help a "crazy old lady," and expose someone who had been hiding for 30 years. That opens up a whole other line of inquiry and Jo steadfastly stonewalls that. And you seem to support her, which makes your actions suspect, too. You may not like to hear that, but that's the way this game is played. You may wish the DZ was a debating society, but we ain't. This is a real game. We're not jumping out of airplanes to get a thrill. We're investigating a serious felony crime, where many people have been seriously impacted. In fact one principal may be dead because of what he said and didn't say. Worse, the federal investigation has been severely compromised - lost evidence, disappeared agents, lies and deceptions, and possible mind control activities. What do you think. How should we proceed here? What does your scientific method say to these aspects of Norjak? I say push, dig and stir the pot.

No, Robert, it is not obvious. As far as we know, no one has died doing a Cooper jump. Certainly no copy cat. In fact, Richard LaPoint made it to the ground wearing less than Danny Boy. Plus, LaPoint jumped in January in Colorado, north of Denver. He was wearing cowboy boots, a shirt and slacks. I'm curious, how much of my book did you read? I've written extensively on these issues. Yes, I'm a little miffed - I gave you five years of free research. The least you can do, in my view, is read what I've written.

I strongly disagree, Robert. You are approaching this discussion with what Sluggo called "cultural goggles." Namely, you tend to think of the world as filled with people like you. Not so. Lots of folks are islands unto themsleves. Loners, drifters, psychiatric patients, recluses up in the widlerness areas, ex-pats wandering the globe, escaped convicts, guys on the run. Then we have islands of community that are separate from the mainstream world - Indian reservations, military bases, homeless guys under the bridges of America, gypsy encampments. If anyone went missing in these communities they could be missed but the cops would never know about it because these folks have little interaction with the police and not much interest in doing so. Consider the SOG guys. Do you really think those guys would talk about a brother who pulled off the Cooper heist? How about the elite elements of SOG - the Super-SOG guys, whose lives depend on silence every day and routinely don't speak to anyone about their work. Sure Billy Waugh and John Plaster told me about the rumors of Ted Braden, but now that I'm digging into it they are much less chatty, and Billy has effectively clammed-up on me.

How about pulling on the stairs and letting the canopy squid out into the slip stream, thus getting pulled off the stairs and avoiding the tumble through the slipstream? 377 has given a very comprehensive analysis of this method of exiting a 727, replete with videos of training missions in Cambodia during the Vietnam War where troopers exhibited this style of jumping from a 727. Different style of jumping in those videos...( unless it's a set I haven't seen)That plane was going super slow and was rigged for dropping. But as stated above, who knows anything is possible. I just wanted to talk about the skydiving aspect of this mystery. Eh, propster, it sounds like you are equivocating.... If Cooper knew more about the 727 than the pilots or Northwest Orient, don't you think he knew how to exit safely with twenty pounds of twenties? C'mon, put your thinking cap on! Give it your best shot! How would you do it, for instance?

No. It appears you did not read what I wrote. Here, let me post it one more time. There is no loophole here. There is no "permission" for you to attempt to find one. If you'd ALL like to be banned that's okay by me because every single one of you have committed more than one offense. It's serially ridiculous for any of you to whine or moan about anyone else, so just stop. Well, let me pose a DB Cooper-based theory to you Quade, on the behavior of the posters here, their role in Norjak, and the broader question of the impact this forum has in the Norjak investgation. How do you suggest that we investigate Jo? She claims that her husband confessed to being DB Cooper, yet she has no conclusive proof. Further, she has extensive relatlonships with principals in the case, which arguably can be considered to be evidence that she is much more than a befuddled widow and is an insider. Jo may be someone's eyes and ears to keep track of guys like me. Further, your highly prejudicial treatment of Jo also makes you suspect in my eyes. You are heavy-handed with some posters but Jo Weber can seem to do no wrong in your eyes. What's up with that, Paul?. Why do you protect Jo so vigorously? I think that is a fair question and a suitable submission for discussion on these pages. Plus, there is one Big Question unanswered about your conduct here. Why did you kick out two of the most knowledgeable posters on Norjak - Snowmman and Galen Cook? Yes, Snow was obnoxious In Extremis, but I learned to tolerate him and push back when he went too far. As for Galen, who knows more on Coper than him? Geoffrey? Sluggo? Maybe, but the DZ lost a valueable contributor when you butted him out. You have to take responsibility for those travesties. If this post gets me me booted from the DZ, then shame on you, Quade, I do not tolerate bullies, either in the form of crazy old 73-year old women, or high-handed moderators who have a very skewed view of fair play and effective investigation.

How about pulling on the stairs and letting the canopy squid out into the slip stream, thus getting pulled off the stairs and avoiding the tumble through the slipstream? 377 has given a very comprehensive analysis of this method of exiting a 727, replete with videos of training missions in Cambodia during the Vietnam War where troopers exhibited this style of jumping from a 727.

Greetings Propblast- At the risk of exceeding my knowledge of skydiving skills and experiences, here is what I have learned about jumping from a 727. First, it's surprisingly quiet in terms of wind around the exit area. One report has a cup of coffee perched at the top of the aft stairs and not being disturbed by the wind. It is not quiet in terms of engine noise. The smell of jet exhaust is also apparent. Folks report that the immediate jump is smooth, and then one hits a lot of turbulence. Robb Heady, who I've interviewed for my book on Cooper and have written about here, says that he left his 727 when it was going over 300 mph and he tumbled severely for about fifteen seconds. Robb says that he "held his arch" and eventually stabilized, soon landing near his target area of Lake Washoe, in Reno. The absence of any details from Barb Dayton on the experience of her jump is one of the items that make her confession suspect. As for Duane, all we know is that he had nightmares about leaving fingerprints on the aft stair railings. KC, not a clue on his jump. Same with Uncle LD. Details on McCoy's jump are surprisingly non-existent. I don't know the speed, althitude or any other aspects of his jump, nor the conditions he faced. I'd be surprised if McNally remembers his jump since he barely was able to put on his chute properly and lost this money and machine gun on the way down. But he made it to the ground in one piece. If you like to know more about these personages, I'd be happy to send more info. Email me at brucesmith AT rainierconnect DOT com.

In the meantime... https://www.youtube.com/embed/A6XUVjK9W4o

Hell Bruce - that describes 1/2 the skydivers I know! EXACTLY! That's what I've been trying to tell Amazon! See, I knew I was really one of you guys!!!

Carnival ride is a bit harsh Amazon. I welcome those carnival riders into the fold. They have experienced the thrill and risk of freefall albeit with stability assistance and a hired canopy pilot. Wind tunnels are carnival rides. Tandem jumping is several notches above in my opinion. Tandems can be scary if you are the kind of person who wants to be in control. Johnny Horton aka "Johnny Love" was a USAF PJ and skydiver. When he was getting his tandem JM rating I was offered a free tandem ride. I declined. First because I need to be in control if I am falling and second because I just knew Johnny would try his best to make me puke during the canopy ride. Sadly, Johnny was killed a few years ago in a military training accident at Ft Leggett. So Bruce, skip a few cheeseburgers and save up for a tandem. Or maybe you can just levitate to 14.5 and save a couple of bills. 377 When I finally develop the consciousness to levitate, Three-Seven-Seven, then I'll "skydive" with you. Just think, how many levitators do so at terminal velocity, eh?

Well, Amazon, let's not make skydiving up to be anything more than what it really is, which is one teeny-weeny step out of a metal tube with wings. After that gravity takes over, and according to what I read here, the sitting under a canopy for the five minutes or so it takes to land is boring. Okay, so there's the life and death thing, but technically, I risk death everytime I eat a cheesburger. Besides, it takes a lot of courage to look in the mirror after one is called a stinky murderer who lusts after a former nun. What, you don't think my cajones are as big as, um, yours, so to speak???? See right there you proved it... you do not know ... what you are clueless about. Try again. Maybe I could tandem with you, Amazon? Only a suggestion....

Borderline. Let's call it 'overaggressive reporting that skirts the edges of actual stalking' I don't know if you can call me overly agressive since I was willing to bring chocolates and vino when I stopped by Tina's place. I even asked Jo what she thought of the idea, which she nixxed. Oh, hell yeah. (*laughs*) Three stews. There is probably a favorite. Not true, Roberto, although it's true that I would welcome cuddling with the FA in central Oregon. No, my lust has been focused only on Jo.

Well, Amazon, let's not make skydiving up to be anything more than what it really is, which is one teeny-weeny step out of a metal tube with wings. After that gravity takes over, and according to what I read here, the sitting under a canopy for the five minutes or so it takes to land is boring. Okay, so there's the life and death thing, but technically, I risk death everytime I eat a cheesburger. Besides, it takes a lot of courage to look in the mirror after one is called a stinky murderer who lusts after a former nun. What, you don't think my cajones are as big as, um, yours, so to speak????

Himms is not infallible, nor is he even close to accurate at times. The number of actual errors he makes in interviews and in his book are plentiful. He consistently mis-places Bill Mitchell and DB Cooper in their seating arrangement, 18 B, and 18 D-E, respectively. He claims that McCoy was in Los Angeles when in fact McCoy was in Vegas. He says there were close to 20 copycats but doesn't list them and I can only find 14. He says Paul Cini was actually a guy he calls "Gaylord." His police work is also suspect. His documentation on the money find is non-existent as far as I can determine. Shards? How many? Where are they? Where were they found? How extensive was the follow-up? How many fishermen did Ralph's boys talk to, afterwards? What did Ralph do when folks in Vancouver started talking about the "fiery object?" Yeah, I know you don't like the "Janet" story, but you have no evidence to dispute the findings that multiple witnesses that night reported something burning in the sky. How about Dona Elliott? She was standing right next to us when she told us that 305 was flying much lower than 10K. How come Ralph never spoke to his number one eye witness even though she was just down the road from his office? Even sick, too, in 1979 and at the LHH in Gresham. That's the problem with Norjak, and perhaps all of LE. Ya gotta take everything with a grain of salt and corroborate all the details, even when a G-man is telling you "The Truth."

There's one more thing I'd like to clarify this evening, since we're on the subject of full disclosures, and that's my sex life. I'd like everyone to know that I have never lusted after Tina Mucklow. I have never fantasized about her, either. However, I have often imagined being her friend, and I even considered sending her a box of chocolates and a botle of wine to get the, um, converation going, Y'know, break the ice, so to speak. That said, I have lusted after Jo Weber. Only once, though, and it was a few years ago. Such is life. Ahhh, now I can breathe.... ...where's that Tequila....

Now, now, Bobby, "simmer down." After all, this is the DZ and even though we're all friends, anyone can call each other a liar if they want to. Quade says so, remember.

Yes. The same poster who called you the above has called me the following (continuing with your numbered listing): 8. A troll living under a bridge. 9. A phony. 10. An ass. 11. A plant from the FBI to make sure the Cooper case is never solved. 12. Other things along the same line. Robert99 I feel your pain, Robert. Y'know, I think we're now tough enough to be skydivers, you know what I'm saying?

I have Georger. It's in my book. The bigger question is: Who reads my book? Nevertheless, we'll always have the DZ...