davelepka

OK, I'll reply to my own post as a general response. There were a few good points made in the replies, and if you had a chance to read the personal attack I wrote (before deletion, mdoerators just doing their job), it was 100% just for fun. So, some of the replies were geared toward specific areas or ideas, but the post itself was ambiguous for a reason. What I'm addressing is the general attitude of some of the jumpers who read this stuff. There seems to be an alot of protest to building in additional training or regs for things such as canopy control or camera flying. There are too many 'but I know a guy who' or 'some people are ready before others', when those responses really don't help to keep people safe. Getting folks to slow it down a notch, and realize that any type of skydive is quite an event. You don't need to push your WL, or increase your workload with a camera to keep it interesting or exciting. Those things will come in time, and while you're waiting, there are a million other things you can do with your jumps. With the modern skydiving enviornment, it's easy for a determined jumper to make 300 or 400 jumps a year. At that rate, their experience within 1 1/2 years would be such that nobody would question if they wanted to jump a camera or an eliptical canopy. The trouble is that less determined jumpers seem to lookat the time frame (1 1/2 or 2 years) as opposed to their experience when looking to undertake more advanced skydiving persuits. With the top end of skydiving performance being what it is, people are making the mistake of wanting too much too soon. Years ago a guy with a 120 at 1.8 was a hotshot. In those days, a newbie looked at the range of possibilities,and could see that 1.2 was good place to be with a couple hundrd jumps. Today, most DZ's have a handful of guys at 2.4 on canopies under 90 sq ft. The new jumper looks at that figures that 1.4 must not be a big deal. The student canopies haven't changed, and 200 jumps is still only 200 canopy flights, but it seems that people have nudged up what is 'safe' just as the top end has increased. The trouble is that most of those guys on the top end were jumping a 120 at 1.8 years ago, and have the experience to be moving up. The newbie is still a newbie. Those a a couple of examples, but I'm not looking to get into those specific subjects. They have thier own forums, and should be handled there. Here my point is that if people would realize what's happening, and modify thier attitude to reflect it, the culture of skydiving could change, which would be far more effective than any regulations. Nobody would support a newbie who makes a habit of pulling low. In turn, most newbies have a healthy respect for pull altitudes. If there were even a few jumpers who supported them, a newbie interested in pulling low would have enough encouragement to do so. Since there is no support for it, and it's considered uncool, you don't see it too often. If we had the same situation apply to other areas where newbies are pushing the limits, we could improve the skydiving enviornment in general. All things will come in due time, and the newbies can wait. I know that skydiving will never be 'safe'. But there's no reason that we can't manage the factors we can control to limit the incidents we have to unavoidable freak occurences.

Why do I read threads? All they do is make me think of things to put in my own threads. Well, here's a few thoughts. SAFETY Awhile back a guy came to the DZ to make a jump. He was an older guy, with his own gear. He wasn't current, nor was his gear. Most everyone joked about his gear, and that even in-date, it didn't look safe. We've all seen this guy, and his gear, and we all thank god for whatever newer gear we have. Here's the point, and I'm sure it's been said before: There are guys out there who are kept up at night trying to figure out ways to make us safer via better gear. Our equipment today is so good, and works so well, even without the simple maintenence it requires. The stuff just keeps working. It's like a miracle. The trouble is that as soon as someone comes up with a way to make us 10% safer, someone else figures how to make us 10% more dangerous. Be it cutting corners in training, or pushing some limit or another, it happens. The net result is that despite the hard work of smart people, we get nowhere. AND TRAINING It seems that if someone suggests that this area or that needs some more attention in the training area, a whole host of people have a protest that requiring additional training is infringing on thier freedom, and people can take care of themselves. Or that the training is too restrictive, and not everyone needs additional training. AND THE POINT IS, If you are interested in ANY of the following: - 1000's of soft openings, easy landings, long swoops. - 1000's of jumps on a container with no flaps coming open in freefall unitl you want them to. - Cameras so small and light that you can jump them inside of a four-way with no problem. - Wingsuits that allow fall rates in the 50's, freefall times over two minutes and glide ratios that let you cover miles, all without killing you. - Jumpers with under 100 jumps pulling 10 points or more in a four way. - Jumpers with under 500 jumps doing anything on a 100 way. - Head down formations of over 40 people. - Airplanes so fast you can make an easy 10 jumps a day. Then you need to realize that all of these things were pipe dreams 15 years ago. Jumpers would sit at work and daydream of the day it would happen. Well, all of it happened, and were all living the dream today. The problem is that not everything has kept pace. The training we have in place for students hasn't chnaged much at all. Sure the methods have been shuffled a bit, but the content is still about the same as 15 years ago. The regulations in place are all about the same. Again, some adjustments have been made, but to nowhere near the degree that the sport they regulate has changed. I'm not a fan of restricitons. I like to be able to do whatever I want (and usually do). I have reached a point where I can regulate myself. Most people will reach that point, and will be fine. The trouble is that there are alot of jumpers out there, and even if 98% of them do succeed in jumping happily their enitre lives, that leaves 2% that won't, and thats a big pile of dead jumpers. The fact is that modern day skydiving is an awesome sport with some incredible limits. If we could bring the training and regs. up to speed, we could open up those limits to even more jumpers. It wouldn't make it any less fun, it would enhance the learning process, and most likely accelerate it, allowing these jumpers to do more,and do it sooner. It would give those who already can do more that many more people to do it with. It's good for everyone. To those that are against the changes, take a look at all the other changes (gear, types of jumps, etc),and ask yourself if it really makes sense for one thing to change without the other. Completely unnecessary PA oriented text deleted by slotperfect to keep the thread productive instead of destructive.

Ain't that the truth. "Qualified' in this case is anyone who is has as much control as the beginner flyer lacks. Just so long as they can prevent collisions, thats all I'm talking about. Coming up with a progression is best left to someone who spends all thier time coaching freeflyers. The main problem I see is that it would take a long time to develop a 'standard' progression, and likewise it would take the new flyer a long time to read and understand. My goal here is just to keep everyone safe in their own airspace. If a person wants to learn in some ass-backwards way, thats up to them, so long as they don't hurt anyone in the process. I do agree that some additional guidance would help people along in a big way. As freeflying matures, and the level of flying goes up, the newbie has that much furhter to go before he can play with the 'cool kids'. For this reason alone the student needs to be smarter and more informed. LIke I said, I'm not the guy for that job. I just don't want to read about people running into each other for no reason other than the lack of some simple and basic information.

What would you prefer? Drink an espresso, smoke a bowl, and then freefly? Is that cool?

My mistake, you only had one jump to asses his skills. Wasn't there video on that jump? If there was I'm sure I have acsess to it, and it will show that the current, AFF-I with 5000 jumps you're talking about wasn't out of his slot. Care to illustrate other times I have been wrong?

Thats quite an assesment to make with two jumps, both with him flying out of your sight as a JM. I've filmed him on 100's of AFF jumps, and haven't seen an error on his part yet. In your mind yes. As per the USPA regs, no. Considering the DZ is a USPA Group memeber in good standing, and that one of the owners is a USPA regional director, I can see why they went with the USPA's definition. Again, anyone who knows me will attest that I have no interest in anyone patting me on the back, and that I have publicly and openly disagreed with Tim on many issues. You are, however, entitled to your opinion.

Yeah, unless you're current (or willing to do a re-currency jump), have modern and in-date gear, and are willing to pay for your jumps, don't even bother talking to that guy.

Wow, really, what's so bad about Aerohio?

I'm not interested (as far as this discussion is concerned) in recovery positions, learning progressions or freefly technique. The purpose of this is to inform people of the realities of freeflying, and offer some guidelines to allow them to learn safely. I feel that if you follow my suggestions, you'll have a clean and uncrowded airspace with which to work. What anyone does inside that space is up to them. Sure, there are faster, better, and smarter ways to learn, but as long as you are relativley safe, and those in the sky with you are as well, if you want to flail around for 100 jumps, whip out your checkbook and go for it. If you have ideas for a 'standard' progression, put your thoughts together, and fire up a thread. Additional information for new freeflyers wil only serve to improve the level of freeflyer we have to jump with.

This true if you are talking about the canopy recovering on it's own. Chuck's point was that a pilots ability to step in and recover the canopy themselves is improved with turn that has less pendulum effect. Your airspeed once in a dive will have an effect on your ability to recover. Less airspeed equals less effective control surfaces. Your ability to pull out of a dive at the very top, before you have accelerated, is less than your ability to pull out towards the bottom, where your airspeed has increased. A portion of this is related to the pliots having moved back under (or closer to under) the canopy, but the effect is the same. Again, your point is correct given that the pilot does not apply any input. A dive is a dive. But people need to understand that the pilots ability to arrest the dive is effected by their airspeed.

People already think this. This is why I'm behind a WL restriction through 1000 jumps. No matter how many times you tell someone that slow and easy is the fastest way to learn, the fact is that the guys with the Velo at 2.2 are laying down the hottest swoops, and every 500 jump wonder knows that a Stiletto at 1.5 will never do what the Velo does, but if HE had the Velo, HE could handle it. I havn't read the article in question, but from what I gathered it sounds like good info. It may not be complete info, but the concept is sound. A 270 on anything at 1.3 or 1.4 will not net you much of anything except for an increased risk factor.

This will happen. People don't always listen, and when they do, they sometimes have poor judgement in regards to thier abilities. My thought with this was that if this is in writing, and people see that it's generally accepted, it might hold more water than a suggestion from 'some jumper' (no offense). I do mention the concept of being realistic and cautious when assesing your own skills. While those coutries may be on to something, getting that sort of thing in place in the US will take YEARS. It's like the whole canopy coaching thing. We need more, and it needs to be mandatory, but that is taking forever to get in place. I've backed a WL resrtiction related to jump numbers as a quick and easy to implement partial fix to the canopy incidents we are having. This list is similar in that if the info is out there, and people seem to support it, it will become 'the way' that things are done. Maybe it will be a requirement at some point, but if a list like this was posted at every DZ, it would be a step in the right direction. (Thats a clue to everyone that when this list can be finalized, hit 'print' and put up a couple at your DZ). I would question several things with this story. Was the injured jumper moving forward as well? Was their a vertical component to the movement? How much separation was thier before the impact? Extreme forward movement in a sit is a difficult flight mode. Doing it without floating on your partner is even harder, and I would doubt that a 'qualified' flyer would allow this girl to get into a position where she could do that sort of damage. If her partner was not 'qualified', this is where my list comes into play, as she would have been doing a solo, or coached jump. As far as the coach who won; thelp her unitl she has 100 belly jumps, thats stupid. If she has a problem now, help her now. Letting her continue on her own is asking for future trouble.

The comments regarding learning a body position are all limited to solos. It clearly states that two ways are only for body positions you have a modicum of control over. With that in mind, what is a first time sit flyer going to recover to when 'trying'? Even a 20 jump wonder has the arch built into their mind as the 'natural' freefall position, and this is what they will revert to. Any type of 'recovery' position you could teach to an aspiring sit flyer, could apply to a beginner HD flyer. Yes, the transitions will be tougher, and it may not be the best way to go (I do say that syarting with a sit is recommended), but it is feasable. If a jumper has a coach or mentor (even just on the ground) to teach a recovery position of some sort (which needs to be taught in both sit or HD scenarios), they will most likely try to steer them in the right direction. In the end, the suggestions you are questioning are all refering to solos, where a cork is not an issue. Keep in mind, that people will do what they want. If they want ot go straight to HD, they will. At least they understand the dangers they pose to others, and have an avenuse with which to minimize this.

My general thinking is that most people start off with a turn of some sort. If they can stop it, they have 'control' over that axis, leaving them able to turn and face their partner at all times.

Thats a thought. As opposed to suggesting a progression though, I'd like to stick to the basic safety principal of keeping a flyer in their own arispace, and out of others. I'll reword it to include backflying in with the HD. A backflyer with too much legs out will have the same sort of 'excessive' drive as a fist time HD guy. I like the sit to start because of it's lower likelyhood to produce significant dirve.

Sure, best way to learn is with a coach. Given that most people are not going to have a coach handy, they will ahve to learn on thier own. I'm not sure how sit skills will really help to learn head down. There may be some advantages, such as being used to working at higher speeds, and flying somewhat un-stable (compared to belly down) positions, but it's almost comparing apples to oranges. You can't stop people from doing what they will do, and people will fly HD first, it's 'cooler'. What you can do is illustrate the dangers of what their doing, and offer suggestions for minimizing that danger. I explained the importance of holding a heading 90 degrees off of jump run twice (actaully three times is you count the idea of HD for 5 sec., then back to the sit to re-establish a heading), in hopes making an impression. Additionally, I mentioned at the bottom the importance of being realistic in assesing your ability with regards to what you may or may not be ready for. Given that, the best plan (I think) for a new flyer is to make the 90-dgree-off-of-jumprun heading a priority. This way, any forward or backward movement results in an "adjusted" spot for the flyer, not a danger to others on the load. There is no way, nor am I suggesting, that this list should be enforced. This is more of a quick 'how-to' in regards to start freeflying safely. As long as you can stay in your onw airspace, the rest is up to you. Lets face it, as far as freefall goes, the biggest danger is collisions. Avoid that, and you're in good shape.

At least the SCUBA guys have a buddy.

Thats the idea, Less drag. The formed nose thingy is something too. If you could get a canopy into a wind tunnel, with a closed nose, inflated with a pump through the tail (or side or wherever), you could monitor the air pressure in different areas of the canopy. If you could find a high enough pressure to inflate and maintain a canopy somewhere else but the nose, you'd be on to something. The air inlets have to create alot of drag, so if you could get rid of them, you're going faster. How a canpoy like that would open, who knows. Different bracing that allows a reduction of lines would be good. Loose the stabs (like the JVX). Increase the aspect ratio (again the opening/ staying open situaiotn). Taper the nose as well as the tail (a true elipse)? Keep in mind that all of the above are for better fatser longer swoops, not safe canopy decents. If you want safe, jump a Spectre 170.

After looking over the thread regarding the incident in Z-Hills, it's not the event itself that bothers me (although it does), it's the difference of opinions that I'm seeing regarding what should have happened. How is it that a group of new freeflyers are expected to know what or how to do things, if a group of experienced freeflyers can't seem to agree on how things should be done? In the interest of forming a consensus on some basic safety procedures, I'll throw out a few suggestions, and hopefully we can add to or modify them as needed, and end up with a solid reference for the new guys. This would be something we could post elsewhere in DZ.com or get stickied to the top of this forum, or even printed in one the many fine skydiving magazines out there. Here's the thing, this is a list of safety concerns or procedures, not style or technique issuses. Please keep that in mind when submitting suggestions. Also, this is all just rolling off the top of my head, so I type anything too stupid, at least I have a reason. Assuming you are aware of the gear requirements, as well as the shorter freefall times you can expect then: SOLO JUMPS 1. Freeflyers should begin with solo jumps. Ground coaching from a reputable source is recommended, and in air coaching should be limited to those qualified to adminster it ('qualified' being accepted by all on the DZ as a good and safe freeflyer). 2. Begining with a sit is a good idea. Head down is acceptable provided that you can establish and maintain a heading 90 degrees to jump run. The high horizontal speeds often found in begining HD attempts makes this critical for not introuding into the airspace of the previous/prior groups in the AC. 3. If you begin with the sit, once you can hold the position reliably, and can control your heading, you can attempt to fly HD. Establish a heading 90 degrees off of jumprun, attempt a transition, hold the position for 5 sec., then return to your sit to re-establish your heading. Repeat. Do this unitll you find your HD awareness such that you can maintain your heading while HD. Please understand that a HD flyer who is driving forward or back can quickly cover the distance between groups from the AC. Your heading control/maintenence is critical unitl you can establish that you are falling straight down, which can only be done with a qualified second jumper. 2 WAYS 1. Before juping with another jumper who is not qualified to teach, make sure that both jumpers can hold a heading throughout the entire jump. This is crucial for maintaining visual contact. The most dagerous situation is when you don't know where the other flyer is. If the two flyers can at least face each other the whole time, this problem is eliminated. 2. Be sure that you limit your body positions to those in which you can hold a heading. If your sit heading is good, but your HD is only OK, do not attempt to fly HD with an un-qualified jumper. 3. Plan your dive, then dive your plan. If the plan calls for a two way unitl 5000ft, stick with that. In the event of vertical or horizontal separation, continue to try and fly together unitl 5000 ft, then turn 180 and track a safe distance from your partner. Your ability to control your heading will ensure visual contact, and ensure that you know where to track. 4. If you are going to go through clouds, do not proceed with the 2 way unless both flyers can control flight on all axis, and have proven that they can stay within 10 to 15 ft of other jumpers at all times. If coulds are present, discuss this on the ground. If in checking the spot, you see you will go through clouds, plan B is 2 one ways. This can be decieded in the door at the last second. Make sure that the first jumper does not delay his exit relative to the group in front of him, and that the second jumper leaves adequate separation for the upper winds that day. 3 WAYS AND BIGGER 1. Every flyer on the jump must have control of heading, fallrate and proximity in their chosen body positions before attempting a 3 way or bigger. Without this control, loss of visual contact will occur quiclky between some or all of the flyers. The increase in danger and complexity between a 2 way and a 3 way is huge. However, if you can safely perform 3 ways, the move up to 4, 5, or 6 ways is relatively simple. 2. SEE RULE 3 FROM THE SECTION ON 2-WAYS 3. SEE RULE 4 FROM THE SECTION ON 3-WAYS. The difference is that changing the plan on a 3 or 4 way at the last minute is harder. Have a plan B in place, including the smaller groups you will split into, and simple exits for those groups. Make sure that the smaller groups will be safe in of themselves. Pair the stronger flyer with the new guy and the intermediate can do the solo (or something similar). Keep in mind this is only needed if you can see that clouds may be a factor, and you still choose to board the AC with a larger group planned. The increased speeds and increased range of fall rates found in freeflying make following the above suggestions crucial. In making judgements regarding your or anothers ability in regards to what type of jumps might be safe, err on the side of caution. Separation of 1000's of vertcal feet, and differences in fall rates of 50+ mph are not unheard of in freeflying. Understand that this is dramaticaly different than what you will see with flat flying, and that regardless of your skills and experience in flat flying, these situaitons can and do occur. By following the above suggestions, you can do your best to minimize these situations, and the incidents that can occur as a result of them.

Yeah. The better idea is to buy big and wear lead. Maybe an 84 with a vest, or a 90 with a big vest.

Did what? Created a revenue stream that has funneled millions of dollars into skydiving? Created a way to draw countless new jumpers into skydiving, many of whom continue on to be regular fun jumpers? Created a way to promote skydiving via celebrity-types making jumps? Ask the GK's the value of thier tandems they make in regards to promotion. There may be drawbacks to the tandem system (I think), but given it's widepsread acceptance, along with the 20+ year history, I'm not sure why you see it as such a plague to skydiving. Yes, skydiving is different because of tandems, but I only see improvements in the sport over 20 years ago.

Thats a probelm with the training they recieved after their tandems. Every jumper eventually must prove the same abilities to earn a license, regardless of thier first jump. If they are not prepared at that time, their entire training progression was flawed, not just the first jump. The holes in the training progression are another lengthy thread in itself.

1. How so? DO the tandem students at your home DZ tease you and hurt your feelings? If the DZ has a lift capacity problem, and fun jumpers are always getting bumped, you could A) stop doing tandems, and raise the cost of slot on the small aircraft, or B) aggresivly market for more tandems, and buy a larger AC. Which do you think fun jumpers would prefer? 2. What do you have against money making? Who is 'the man' in this case? The DZO? I'd rather have him have the money than some wuffo, even if he pockets all of it. The reality is that a good bit of it goes to improve the DZ for me. 3.Yes they should. If they don't the fun jumpers should leave the DZ and never come back. So should the staff. They should put him out of business, and jump somewhere else. No joke. 4. By investing in your own training and equipment, you haven't earned anything from the DZ. Skydiving costs money. You want free, stay home and watch broadcast TV. Of course, DZ imporvements for fun jumpers, weekday specials, discount weekends, etc are all forms of customer appreciation. 5.A DZO is operating a for-profit business. Many of them earn little in the way of profit, with AC equity representing thier 'retirement plan'. The ones who do make big money are also the ones who spend the most on facilities, and give the most back to the sport. I don't know of anyone who is willing to open a DZ and not provide for their family and their future. 6. I addressed this in the answer to #1. But again, I can't see how funneling more money into skydiving is bad. Lets say a DZO makes $10k off of tandems after all is said and done. Even if he only puts $100 back into the sport for free pizza one night, hey, free pizza, and a skydiver managed to get $9900 from wuffos. Good for him. My question to you is what brought this thread to life? What personally is your problem with this? Do you just dislike large rigs?

I agree with that, but I also would hesitate to call a one-time tandem passenger a skydiver. The fact remains that tandem has opened up a HUGE portion of the public to make a skydive. Skydiving is not for everyone, but doing a tandem is suitable for more people than a static line jump. Why not take their wuffo dollars, and use them to build nice DZ's with big fast airplanes? Why shouldn't we benefit from being smarter than they are? If you can't handle making a jump on your own, we can hold your hand the whole way down, and keep you safe. Would you like to use MC or Visa? I'm not even sure what this thread is about. Maybe the original poster had a bad experience with a DZ. I agree that it sucks for a DZO to bump people for tandems. I also agree that if that DZO makes an effort to accomadate fun jumpers (covered packing, free pizza, whatever) than it's not unreasonabel for him to ask a fun jumper to bump once in awhile. Talk about love for the sport, how about love for the DZO? If he needs a slot to get a tandem group all together on one load, than the fun jumper should pitch in, and give up thier slot. Again, the DZO needs to make every effort to avoid this, but shit happens, and we can pitch in. What about all the higher level student jumps? Sure level one is expensive. You may never see that guiy again, and if you can get an extra $20 or $40 while he's there, take it. But it seems that the higher level jumps are priced reasonably when you factor in the slots, rental rig, and instructor payment, the margins aren't very high. For a student who makes it to those levels, he's getting some of his level 1 dollars back. For a guy so concerned about the community, the original poster is very short sighted. Suck it up, and help to get the tandems out when it's busy. Take as much money from the wuffos as possible, and put it into skydiving. Thats love for the sport. Feed it and let it grow. Would the sport have progressed to it's current level without tandem dollars? Would the equipment be as safe? Would there be as many turbines? Would anyone here have as many jumps as they do? If that guy wants to do military surplus SL jumps out of a 182, than his DZ plan might work. If he wants to wake up a see what millenuim it is, his plan will quickly fail.

It's all good. Really.