KellyF

Thanks Joel! If you need anything, feel free to ask

Sundevil777's loop cutaway does have a swedge in it, just like a standard cutaway handle.

Maybe we should redefine "line dump" to mean the locking stows falling out? That would result in "canopy dump" or "bag strip". The locking stows are not going to fall out unless the rubber bands break. When the PC starts lifting the bag out of the container, the canopy wants to stay in the container (Newton's First Law of physics). This will result in the locking stows being loaded and holding the bites of line tighter.

Here's an article I found in My Documents. It's from a few years back. I thought it might help some people looking for a new container. Hope it helps, and by no means is this a complete guide to selecting a rig, just some thing to look for. TIPS FOR PURCHASING YOUR NEXT CONTAINER SYSTEM When someone starts shopping around for their first container system, they rely heavily on recommendations and advice from other jumpers, gear stores, and what they read (and see) in magazines. Unfortunately, all of these sources can be misleading. Lots of jumpers may simply jump what their instructors jumped, and are satisfied with their decision. They feel that what they wear, and how they wear it, is comfortable and they are happy with the rest of the features (riser covers, bridle protection, etc.). This person is trying to be helpful and is offering additional insight, after all, you asked for their opinion! When you go to a gear store, you will generally find a variety of container systems to choose from. Keep in mind, these are not the only options available to you. If the store has four container systems to choose from, you could pick the best one of the four and be happy with it. However, there are at least a dozen systems on the market available to you. Possibly the best way to select a container system is to check out all the different types you see at the D.Z. Ask the owner of a rig if it is O.K. for you to look over their rig. One of the first things you will notice is if the shape of the rig and the configuration of the flaps is appealing to you. Some people will buy a container on aesthetics alone. When it comes to inspecting for quality, there are two main things to look for- pattern quality and build quality or workmanship. Pattern quality can be determined by how well everything fits together. Do the side flaps of the main container close completely over the main bag? (This can also be caused by the quality of the pack job) Are the stripes on the center flap symmetrical? Are the pin cover flaps the right size? Do they look too long, or do they have a hard time reaching far enough to tuck in securely? Over all, does the rig have a smooth appearance, or does it have lots of wrinkles, or is it very lumpy? Build quality can be determined fairly easily by just following the binding tape (or trim tape) around the rig. The stitching should be smooth and continuous with no stitching on top of other stitching (unless there is something sewn to the back side such as velcro or another piece). The corners should look the same on top as they do on the bottom. The tape should be uniform in thickness. The outside edge should be the same thickness as the inside edge. If the outside edge is thinner, the person doing the taping was simply running the material through the machine, and not paying too much attention to what was coming out the other side! Likewise, the inspector didn’t reject it! Rigs that are taped this way are simply not as strong because they don’t have as big of a bite of material in the tape and may only have one row of stitching holding it instead of two. Inspect around the backpad, especially in the yoke (behind the neck) area. When it comes to the harness and comfort issue, pretty much any rig can be comfortable for anyone. It all depends on what a person likes. Do you like your harness loose or tight? How tight the parachutes are packed can greatly affect how comfortable the rig is while you are wearing it on the ground. Do you like your leg pads wide or narrow, and how much padding do you like? As you can see, “comfort” is very subjective- how much is the manufacturer willing to work with you to give you what you want? The bottom line is, get your hands on as many different brands of harness/ container systems as you can, and really check them out. You will soon know if you are paying for quality, or just a name. VSE on Facebook

That is correct. That is the basic "trick" behind making a system like the Skyhook work. A "direct bag" RSL wouldn't be very safe if it didn't somehow release from the main risers (directly or indirectly).

Mike, I don't know about the specifics, but (I'm sure you know) both companies build solid machines. As far as ease of use, one pedal lifts, the other makes it go, and it they stop when the pattern is done, what could be easier? You will seriously wonder how you have lived without one!

we were thinking about that yesterday. We could build a small rig and install R/C equipment in the reserve container

Excellent, I'll bet the rig looks much cleaner now too

What I'm trying to say here is that I don't think it is likely that the Skyhook will become detached, but I think the jumper is safer if it stays attached than if it doesn't, so it is a good idea to be able to ensure that it is slways connected. I never mentioned the word ban, or anything of the sort. I agree 100%, but I think it could go a touch further. I think that I have asked a question that didn't cross your mind (not likely), or maybe you didn't find a solution that was simple enough for your liking. That's fine, but "I think it is fine where it is" and "if it comes unhooked, the reserve will work normally anyway", aren't really the best answers (not that I have them all either). What about the Collins Lanyard? Why is it so important for this system to have it, but not for a "standard" RSL? (assuming regular sport gear)

CLASSIC! FWIW, having the pin point straight up is probably the best way. That being said, mine points straight down No real reason, it's just the way I've been doing it for about 16 years, and to the best of my knowledge, I haven't had one come out accidentally.

So would the system not work if the hook was moved a little bit towards the top of the container and a bit off center, so a corner could be slightly exposed? I think one of the things that I don't agree with is the "if it isn't hooked up, the reserve will work normally anyway". The system is designed to extract the reserve bag quickly, so that even in the event the jumper ends up tumbling, the worst that will happen is he will get his feet cought in the lines (still bad), where as with a standard RSL, it is possible for the jumper to wind up in a horseshoe with his reserve, or wrapped up enough that the canopy can't get out of the bag. So if this could possibly be eliminated by making the system checkable, why not do it? So what you're saying here is that every Vector III is equipped to accept a Collins Lanyard? And if so, why don't they come equipped with one when they are sold with an RSL? I think that the Skyhook would stand a better chance of getting a reserve out cleanly in the event of a riser break/RSL fire (without the Collins Lanyard) than a standard RSL since it would probably get the canopy out of the bag before the cutaway side of the main made a full revolution, thus reducing the chance of the reserve and bag getting wrapped up.

Like I said in an earlier post, if you are designing a system from the start with specific objectives, why not include the ability to check the system? A Cypres cutter is placed inside the reserve container as part of the design objectives to keep it invisible. In order for the cutter to be visable, it would need to be placed directly below the pin which would create flap closure problems with existing rigs, among other things.

Hookitt: depending on how the canopy is packed, and how the bag is positioned in the container, the tension on the pin could increase substantially the next time he packs it. Example: if the left side of the bag is not quite filled out enough, or is it is shifted to the right in the container, there will be less pressure on the left side flap when he simply recloses the rig with a longer loop. While this was a problem with some pins made in the mid-late '80's it really isn't much of a concern with the pins that all (to the best of my knowledge) manufactuers use today. The suspect pins were made from wire, and the eye was made by bending the wire in the opposite direction of the curve. If the closing loop got too close to the eye, a vertical pull of the from the bridle would rotate the pin so that the curve went down, thus making pin extraction improbable.

One of my questions is that I thought you had this system pretty much worked out around 1992 (minus the Collins Lanyard). I remember Mark doing test jumps with a red and silver V-II, and later on finding out about a hook (shaped similar to the one you are currently using) that made the system work. I don't know the exact layout of the (older) system, but it seems like pretty much the same concept. So is there a difference other than the Collins Lanyard? I think (just brainstorming) that you could maybe locate the hook at the base of the inner top flap (underneath it, maybe on top of the side flaps) with just enough of it exposed so that you could see that the hook was going through the lanyard. You could even use a Cypres cutter elastic to hold the hook in place- it may not be the best for a bag first deployment, but it would keep the lanyard from sliding off the hook, and could (depending on how the elastic is attached) be easily ripped off in a nasty bag first deployment. I've got more, but this is enough for now

It shouldn't be soft then. I guess that is a relative term

Hey Chris, do you guys have another one you could send out? We want to do some CRW

Not before Andy and I do a Mr. Bill

Bill, I'm not trying to "pooh-pooh" your system, I think it is a great system- it's simple, and that's the way things should be. I think I have brought up some good points about the history behind these types of systems, and some design objectives but you haven't responded to them yet. This is a good opportunity for you to show how much thought you have put into this system. This is what these forums are designed for- to have educational, informative discussions- not advertising. Let's have a discussion

Tecnically, that is the way it should be, but if you have a smaller canopy than the container was built for, by all means shorten the loop to increase teh tension on the pin. Hookitt is spot on.

A cutaway from a horseshoe will not always release both riser's. Have you ever seen the Breakway video? Billy Webber had to manually release both riser's, one at a time. That was what I was referring to. So how will the Collins Lanyard be any different? All it does is pull the cutaway cable for the other side. If you have a horseshoe, you should be pulling your reserve pretty quickly anyway, so the Skyhook probably won't be much of an advantage.

That's pretty much it!

You must know something no one else know's. There's a good chance I do. If Bill started to work on the system way back when, there is a good chance that he intended to use it one a skydiving rig with a spring loaded pilot chute. Marks system was designed from the beginning for a BASE rig with a hand deployed PC. So if Bill has been working for the last ten years on how to make it work with a spring loaded PC, he apparently got inspiration from Mark's system. What point are you trying to make here? I know fully what a collins lanyard is, and what it does, you were asking how neccessary it is in a sport rig, and I was just stating it is a backup for sport rigs equiped with a skyhook. In a previous post you stated: I just pointed out what it was designed for. I don't think it is likely that you will break a riser during a horseshoe, thus making the Collins Lanyard a non-issue. In a horseshoe, you will pull your cutaway handle and release BOTH risers (unless you are an underachiever and don't pull the handle that last inch).

The reason I think you should be able to pin check the system is since this is a "new technology", and you can pretty much engineer it to meet specific goals (hell, that's half the fun- figuring out all the pieces to the puzzle), why NOT make it so the system can be checked from the beginning? Some things have to be packed inside the container, and we have to trust that our riggers do their jobs correctly (how do we know that they didn't roll the nose on the reserve?), and we can talk until we're blue in the face about things we can't check, but why not make it so we can check as much of the system as possible? I think that you are copping out when you talk about all the things you can't check, but don't answer the questions that have been asked, and I think that makes the questions all the more valid. I think this is a good discussion, and we can all learn a bunch from it. And the Skyhook isn't like an AAD- it's an RSL, still a device that you should not rely on to save your life

The first three grommets should be stacked on top of each other, and the fourth should be off to the left. The edges of the side flaps should just kiss each other (no overlap). This is all primarily for cosmetics. If you stack all the grommets, you will get some nasty wrinkles on the side flaps where they meet with the pin cover flap. Also, to preserve the longevity of your main tuck tab, route the bridle between the center flap and the side flap- not under the center flap.

He had it figured out. The Collins lanyard was invented to ensure a clean breakaway in the event of a premature release of an RSL equipped riser on tandem systems, preventing the reseve from becoming entangled with the main canopy that is still attached by the other riser. Yes, you can check that the RSL is attached to the riser, that it has the pin on the end of it going through the R/C. But you CANNOT verify that the Skyhook is attached, since it is packed inside the container. VSE on Facebook