fcajump

Arbitrary, maybe but it is becoming more common (to my experience). My personal $.02... (as a rigger) Are there GREAT rigs over 20 years... yes Are there CRAP rigs under 2 years... yes However, with the changes in gear and the multiple (conflicting) responses I have gotten from gear manufacturers and fabric manufacturer on ACTUAL known aging of materials the answer for how old is too old is... "we don't know." Even worse (for me) is that while PIA and PD have published a (controversial) standard for testing fabric strength, there is little I can do in the field to prove that a harness (including the 5/6-cord thread) will take another 4month/6months/1year of your hard openings. So I look at a few things in considering what I will service... What condition is it in (that I can be sure of and test)? What is the history of this rig and its design? Due to its age (and age of the design) are the issues that the owner, user, packer, rigger (me), and/or those performing the pin-checks are not going to have a clue how to operate/verify? What does the Mfg say about it? (Butler and National don't service their own gear past 20 years, and GQ has disavowed continued use of their old designs for example) Finally, since many other riggers and several mfgs won't service old gear, and several fabric manufacturers have stated that their fabric aging is not precisely known, what would I say to justify putting something old back into service if it fails? (Even if we say the failure might not actually be age related, but that could be raised as a point of negligence since so many experts seem to have that position.) So, for me, I have drawn a few bottom lines: 1. Generally I do not work on rigs/components over 20 years. 2. For a closet queen, if the mfg will test and recertify the gear, I will discuss extending that to 25 years (rare). 3. When advising someone on buying used gear or planning for depreciation, I tell them to price based on a 20 year limit. (more applicable to PEP's than skydiving gear where wear/tear are more of an issue for limits) My single biggest item of concern: harness. It tends to have the most sun exposure, MUST not fail, and I can test it the least (to actual use levels)... especially on PEP's where I can't say that it was taken to terminal just last week and looks just like it did... Thats my thoughts, Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

(I know, this thread is a little old, but I'm looking at the same issue...) My company offers two health plans, one with a company I DON'T like, the other reads as follows: "Exclusions: 20. Charges for services, supplies or teatment due to an illness or injury that results from engagin in hazardous hobby. A hobby is hazardous if it is an activity which is chacterized by a threat of danger or risk of bosily harm. Examples of hazarous hobbies include, but are not limited to: skydiving, auto racing or any kind of organized vehicular speed or endurance contest on land, water or air, hang gliding, jet ski operating, bungee jumping, stunt driving, aerobatis demonstration or contest or scuba diving." Seems like this is a catch-all for not falling into line with the structured society of drones. If anyone knows of any supplimental health insurance available in the US, lemme know. Thanks, JW PS - last time I read the USPA supplimental AD&D policy, it excluded piloting planes, and AOPA's ADD&D policy excluded skydiving... Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Funny, that how a old girlfriend used to drive... then would curse about her car not braking like it should. Didn't ride with her much after the first time, but her friends liked it when I drove Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

This is why you'd want to call the FAA ASAP and ask them what you want done with the gear. If they then tell you to hold it pending an investigation, then it wouldn't be theft. Until the rig is jumped, what crime has been committed? I can have any rig I want at the DZ, with or w/o TSO or properly documented maintenance. I'm not sure the FAA has any authority over the rig until I jump with it. I would disagree... something about misrepresenting information on government required documentation on TSO'ed gear. Got to be something they would charge somebody with... Just my $.02 J It's not gov't required until the rig is jumped, is it? Actually it is required if it is on the plane (same as with PEP's)... It might also fall into the charge of tampering with TSO'ed aircraft equipment, but now we are stretching my knowledge base... Besides, most Fed's can make something very uncomfortable when there is obvious attempts to deceive when it comes to aviation safety issues... J Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I agree with the statement that my work is held to the same standard on main and reserve. I do not usually pack the main, but if it is present I will do a line check and overall look to make sure nothing is out of the ordinary. I would offer the following recommendations to rig owners: KNOW your rigger Use the chance to perform your EP's, BUT do so at the rigger's location so that the rigger can take control of the gear... I've had some come in where the owner left the seal up at the housing, pilot 'chutes snagged in the gear bag zipper, etc... Request / ensure that the cut-a-way system be inspected and cleaned (see B.Booth for best practice here) LEARN how to inspect your own harness, main and everthing else that is visible when the reserve is closed. Just my $.02 Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

This is why you'd want to call the FAA ASAP and ask them what you want done with the gear. If they then tell you to hold it pending an investigation, then it wouldn't be theft. Until the rig is jumped, what crime has been committed? I can have any rig I want at the DZ, with or w/o TSO or properly documented maintenance. I'm not sure the FAA has any authority over the rig until I jump with it. I would disagree... something about misrepresenting information on government required documentation on TSO'ed gear. Got to be something they would charge somebody with... Just my $.02 J Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

No experience with that brand, and Riggerrob has hit most of the good questions. Only thing to add is that Manley Butler (Bulter Parachutes) has always impressed me with his knowledge of gliders/sailplanes and the individual variations in the seat-pan configurations. You might give him a call (e-mail) to discuss your requirements. Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I have heard that the UK and/or EU put a life limit of 15 years on gear. That coencided with a lot of 15-20 y.o. gear showing up on EBay... Some good, some not so. I would be cautious about buying gear that someone else knew they would not be using themselves after x number of years. Additionally, I know of at least one aerobatics team that has their gear condemed every year or so because they simply leave it in their open-cockpit planes exposed to the sun during the season. So age alone is not a good measure. Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Addressing both sides of this: Getting stable, (especially a newbie) don't waste the altitude. GET IT OUT! Also, sub-terminal will be less likely to do nasty things to your reserve (last chance). Wing loading/line twists... Are heavily loaded more suseptable... not sure... remember reserves are typically F-111 and basic design. However it also seems that the more heavily loaded canopies are less survivable when things do not go well. Heavily loaded line twists tighten up quicker, lines and fabric are more heavily stressed, and in the extreme when it all goes to sh!t and its only a wad of matterial up there, I would want the biggest wad of matterial up there that I can get... just thoughts. Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Thanks for the reminder, glad it came out OK. Reminds me of the first time I was looking at a plane that had gone crunch... The skin was only slightly wrinkled, but a tear-down showed major damage... With this type of gear, the small changes on the outside that don't make sense may mean more important concerns on the inside. Blue skies, Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Certainly that is not as shown in the manual, and I have not seen any manufacturer (or aftermarket discussion) that does it that way. I could however see that as an easy way to mis-interpret the instructions. As to how structurally sound that would be, I would defer to PD or someone else who might have test experience with them, but it seems like trouble to these amateur eyes... Let us know what comes of it (though I don't feel the rigger involved need be named either way). Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Check with Ned at Skydive Orange. Hope so, but don't know his plans. Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

For what its worth, when I was a student and there was a last minute switch of planes from the Cessna to a twin beech I was seriously considering backing out... (then it was called on account of weather)... You will have to jump new planes and different gear at times. But you NEVER have to go up before you are comfortable with the change. Make sure you get the time and information about how this change will affect your jump. In retrospect, I LOVED that twin but without having ever been in it or ANY plane but the prior 5 Cessna jumps, I was not comfortable that I would not do something stupid. (And 2 years later an experienced jumper showed that you could have problems with exiting that plane... but that's a story for another thread) Jim Wine Still missing my home DZ... Hartwood, VA!! Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Actually it could be argued that in the US the DZO does not, but the local police and/or FAA could as this could be construed as violation of federal law (FAR's) and willful endangerment on the part of the packer who passed it off as conforming to the repack requirements. Just my $.02 Ok... 3...2...1... blast shields UP! Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Would be interested in seeing pics of the links as you found them and as you think they should be... I have only ever used Precision and PD's versions and want to see/hear anything others are seeing with soft links. Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

First, THANKS for sharing. You're not the first, you won't be the last, but you might have kept someone here from doing so this year. Reminder to us all: Don't forget the pilot. (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2199198;#2199198) Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Another discussion that came up about a jumper with a loose chest strap, reminded me that I wanted to relate this experience... I was visiting a dropzone several years ago. While waiting for the load to gear up I was standing outside the hanger with an individual who I quickly guessed to be the pilot. While talking with him I saw that there was a problem with his chest strap... he had looped it around the friction adapter (not properly threaded through it) and slapped it down on the velcro retainer (used on this rig rather than an elastic keeper.) Being a visitor, I did not want to come off with an attitude, so I just "teased" him that if he ever had to bailout that the 'chute he was wearing was not going to do him any good. Fortunately this "joke" got his full attention, and we had an impromptu lesson on the proper use of the friction adapter and I gave him a pin check (full system check). My lesson learned was that even a visitor can catch things. Also, he told me that he had been droping jumpers for YEARS and never been taught how to put on his emergency system, nor been given a pin check. STOP taking your pilot for granted. They often know as much about their emergency parachute and how to wear/deploy/fly/land it as the typical jumper knows about the plane. DZO's / S&TAs / Riggers / Instructors, take the time to properly brief this wuffo (pilot) on how to jump. Yes its different than teaching a skydiving student, but they deserve to benefit from our knowledge too. Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Actually, I've been thinking of adding a belly band for the comfort factor, but this would be a good reason too... (I like feeling GLUED IN!!) Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

While it was my intent to use them, I had a full example of that "yes" having your hands on your handles during opening can cause problems... I usually bring my hands up to my deploying risers, but on this dive I had PC-in-tow... Hands to the handles (I learned one-hand on each), but just as I went to pull the cut-a-way, my main SLAMMED!! me. "Ok, so lets not cut it away... what's that sound of nylon behind me..." The main had slammed me hard enough to drive my left hand down and deploy the reserve. A routine practice of placing your hands on the handles may cause you to inadvertently use them if/when you get slammed. Not a sermon, just a thought, Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Don't remember if this has been mentioned... PLEASE get any used rig inspected by YOUR rigger as a requirement of the sale. (normally the buyer will pay this, but up to you and the seller) Can't tell you how many "deals of the year" have been brought to me, where the rig looked good on paper but looked like sh!t during an inspection. (some of them looked bad on paper too, but you're already avoiding that by having this discussion.) Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Bet? Tail taken off by a reserve deploying in the door. Pilot got out at under 1000ft. Great summary, sorry to hear of the jumper, but glad the pilot got out (and had the option)! Never give up, but that doesn't mean not to fall back on plan B. Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Some of us still have them in the loft... their called "artifacts" Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Are you aware that you can't carry C02 cartridges on commercial flights? Checked or carry on. http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=177 True but knowing this, it would not be hard to purchase a CO2 cartridge when you get there (depending on where "there" is...) Also a caution about some CO2 floats... the one the author described is great (fanny pack, belt pack etc...) but STRONGLY recommend against wearing any CO2 armed system that is in worn place... If you wear it over your rig, well lots of easily imagined problems. If worn under the rig and inflated via CO2 before you are out of the rig (inavertantly or in prep for a dunking) you can crush your rig cage. Have fun, but get someone experienced in spotting over water! Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Reusch - I have an unrelated offline question for you... drop me a line if you would. Thanks, Jim jim.dz@parachuteservices.com Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

My biggest problem with this whole question is that I have NEVER seen it stated up front for students or experienced renters. BTW - Sailplane lessons were lacking the same information, but with rental (powered) aircraft they tell you up front what the insurance covers, what it doesn't, and where to get supplimental renter's insurance. Jim - paid for part of my reserve ride, despite the problem being caused by the packer - didn't pay for a control-link failure in a sailplane. Both times I was unlicensed... and neither time was it spelled out before hand what I was responsible for... Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...