snowmman

Some early 1992 Triggerman footage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbTlg1j1tVU&feature=related see 2:36 for good example. My reaction was mostly "What happened to 'one shot, one kill' ?

I've found, that when people's thought processes get weak, they fall back on the strategy of calling their perceived opponent a troll. Was that your intent, or other?

"A path (hypotheses) taken early-on in the investigation was not supported by the data." Can this be reworded to say that a hypothesis has been proven wrong? If so, why not publish that? Why keep good info about a failed hypothesis secret?

"The most I am expecting from the Nat-Geo piece is the best depiction of the jump yet shown." I suppose a non-jumper would have a good idea of what "the best depiction of the jump" might be like! How will we know it's the best depiction?

Ok, thanks for the explanation, georger. My reading of your post is that there's a process to be followed, and if you follow the process, you get access. Otherwise you don't. Actually, you're correct, I haven't got out much. (edit) And the process, surprisingly, doesn't involve sex, drugs or money. I guess that's what caused doubts in me. The process doesn't make sense. Are you sure there's no money involved?

Georger: Way back when, when Ckret was trying to be a good liar, he said he couldn't release any FBI investigative product. Yet you've released stuff that was obviously the result of FBI interviews with the Ingrams. And now you're releasing new info from the FBI that we've always asked for, i.e. stuff about whether other debris was found on the beach. And Tom the Trigger Man evidently got access to FBI investigative product, that others didn't. How do I resolve all this? The only resolution that makes sense to me is to say Larry is a liar. Is there an alternative explanation?

I want a picture of Jo shooting a .50 cal. Attire is at her discretion. She owes us.

I have finished reading "Hunting The Jackal" by Billy Waugh. During the read, I also read an online account by Don Valentine, that mentioned training with Billy Waugh. http://www.don-valentine.com/1st%20Group%20and%20White%20Star.htm Not sure what is strictly humor there, but you can read the rest of Don's stuff, to get an impression of Don. I had many thoughts during the read of the book. I can say I never had the reaction that I've read in other reviews. I also didn't have the liberal reaction that Billy might say he'd expect from someone like me. I guess my reaction was more that truth was not in that book. Sure it's accurate, but accuracy is not truth. Can't even be sure it's the truth as Billy perceives it. Maybe it is. If truth is about shooting and getting shot, maybe it is in the book. In any case, I was surprised to see Billy answered my musings on Heroism, earlier in this thread, in his Afterword. Billy provides his definition of heroism directly: "To me, the essence of heroism is defined in Paragraph II of the U.S. Army Field Operations Order: "TO COMPLETE THE MISSION, [Ed. his caps] regardless of the enemy counteraction, and keep his men alive." After listing his personal heroes, and their actions, Billy says: "Heroes are made of men who stay focused in battle. Heroes are men who have a plan, and who understand the plan is everchanging and dependent on enemy action. Heroes are those who can adjust to a new plan and then execute that plan even when the enemy interferes with his intentions". Billy was raised by his mother Lillian. No mention of any heroism on her part in the book. She could whip him good. His father wasn't there, died when he was 10. No mention of brothers or sisters. And not related, but related, from another sewer hole on the 'net: The strange interaction between Mrs. Billye Alexander and all the SF guys in the '60s. For some reason, they created this mythology of her as Guardian Angel. She was the clerk who handled the SF orders, deep in the bowels of the Pentagon. They invited her down to Fort Bragg, and showed her around everything and took pictures. Pretty interesting. On Youtube nowadays, you can see vids of bikini clad hot women shooting machine guns. Some find it quite erotic. In that vein, I attach a pic of Mrs. Billye Alexander, in '60s hot mama role, firing a .50 cal machine gun at Fort Bragg. I would note that in all the pics, the men around her are smiling. Dinner picture also attached. In case that didn't get your gun off, I also included Billye with a M-79, and a .30 cal. Of course, we all realize a M-79 is a single-shot, shoulder-fired, break-action grenade launcher which fires a 40x46mm grenade. (edit) Experts needed: the 2 pics seem to show something smaller than a modern M-79 ??? Even back then, an M-79 looked like this? http://www.americans-working-together.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jack_1.jpg I guess Billye A. died around '79 or so. Not sure of when exactly. Oh, and apparently Billy W. didn't go work for the Post Office immediately after retiring. Not until '75. So 3 years doing who knows what after '72 retire. His retirement ceremony involved a parachute jump into a US base (him) and beer (for everyone). Oh: and were people aware of the history of 1st SFG (1st Special Forces Group, Airborne) at Fort Lewis? They have a nice memorial wall there. I don't think Billy W. had any involvement with that unit though. Not sure though. Currently there is 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th SFG and also 19th and 20th National Guard, Special Forces Groups. (respectively at: Ft. Lewis, WA, Ft. Bragg, NC, Ft. Campbell, KY, Ft. Bragg, NC, Ft. Carson Colorado) I'll leave a link here for georger, since I know he won't whack off to the pics of Billye A., but maybe he will reading this paper from back then: http://www.sfalx.com/bourne/ The Billye A. porn pics were from here http://sfac82.org/billyea.htm (edit) added another 2 pics of Billye with the M-79, that more clearly shows the whole weapon. So I think that issue is resolved. She fired a M-79.

I think you and Snow & Jo are on your own for a while - the rest of us somewhere doing something, anywhere but here. Good luck to you and Michael Jackson and Jo Jackson. I'm going somewhere too. Always kind of felt like I was on my own, so nothing new. Good luck to everyone.

Green Berets on Trial Aug 22, 1969 TIME http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,898517,00.html In the shadowy world of the intelligence agent, the phrase "to terminate with prejudice" means to blackball an agent administratively so that he cannot work again as an informer. When the phrase "to terminate with extreme prejudice" is used, it often becomes the cloak-and-dagger code for extermination. In June, just such an execution order reached a U.S. Special Forces outfit in a port city of South Viet Nam. Seven Green Beret officers and one enlisted man helped to carry it out. The upshot was their arrest and detention pending investigation. Last week, as the Army maintained total silence and a host of rumors swirled through offices and bars in Saigon, Washington and Green Beret headquarters at Fort Bragg, N.C., a bizarre tale of counterespionage began to unfold. The alleged crime centers around Special Forces Unit B57 (code name: "Black Beard") located on Nha Trang airbase 190 miles northeast of Saigon. Like two other outfits (B52 and B-55) operating in Viet Nam, B57 is a Special Forces intelligence unit, commanded by Major David Crew of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, one of the eight under arrest. It was engaged in counterespionage along the borders of Laos and Cambodia, employing a network of 300 secret agents to spot enemy infiltrators, supply dumps and rest camps. One of its top agents was a Vietnamese national with the cover name of Thai Khac Chuyen. Early in June, B57 received intelligence photos snapped in Cambodia by another of its spies showing Agent Chuyen in conversation with a man known to be a high official in the North Vietnamese intelligence system, the CNC (Cue Nghien Cuu—Central Office for Research and Studies). Chuyen was picked up in Tay Ninh near the Cambodian border and brought to Nha Trang for "hard" interrogation. Later he was taken to Saigon, shot full of sodium pentothal and given a lie-detector test. The interrogations convinced the Green Berets that Chuyen was a double agent serving Hanoi as well as the U.S. Because the CIA has overall responsibility for secret agents in Viet Nam, it was notified at once. The CIA sent the fatal reply: "Terminate with extreme prejudice." A few days later, the CIA countermanded its "extreme" order —but by then it was too late. Chuyen had already been given a massive dose of morphine, bundled into a boat and shot to death with a .22-cal. pistol. His body, weighted with chains, was dumped into either the deep, mud-bottomed Giang River or the South China Sea. Despite weeks of full-time dredging by three ships, Chuyen's body has not been recovered. South Viet Nam literally swarms with spies and agents of all sorts. On the allied side alone, there are said to be at least 15 separate intelligence organizations, often antagonistic to one another. A roundup of suspected enemy spies and agents last month netted 69 prisoners, including Huynh Van Trong, a longtime friend of President Thieu's and his Special Assistant for Political Affairs. Rumors in Saigon at once linked the Green Beret case to the recent roundup.

I mentioned Project Gamma before, in terms of how it fit organizationally. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Special_Forces_Group_(United_States) In June 1969 an incident developed which led to the arrest in July of seven officers and one non-commissioned officer of the 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) including the new commander, Colonel Robert B. Rheault. The incident, which may have had Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) involvement, was the murder of a suspected double agent, Thai Khac Chuyen working on Project GAMMA and an attempt to cover it up. Mr. Chuyen would undergo some ten days of rigorous interrogation and solitary confinement. Ultimately, he would be shot and dumped into the sea. National newspapers and television picked up the story, most likely due to the involvement of the Special Forces, and the “Green Beret Affair” became another lightning rod for anti-war feeling. Finally in September 1969 Secretary of the Army Stanley Resor announced that all charges would be dropped since the CIA, in the interests of national security, had refused to make its personnel available as witnesses. On March 5, 1971, 5th SFG returned to Fort Bragg. During their time in Vietnam, members of the unit earned 19 Medals of Honor, making it the most prominently decorated unit for its size in that conflict. (edit) added TIME article: Who Killed Thai Khac Chuyen? Not I, Said the CIA TIME Sept 05, 1969 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901339,00.html Silence and secrecy are articles of faith and a way of life in the high-security halls of the Central Intelligence Agency. It took a murky internecine dispute with the U.S. Army to force the CIA to step forward last week to tell its side of the strange story of Thai Khac Chuyen, a supposed Vietnamese double agent killed late in June. Eight members of the U.S. Special Forces, including the Green Beret commander in Viet Nam, Colonel Robert Rheault, are under arrest in Long Binh. A civilian lawyer for one of the Green Berets has hinted that Chuyen worked for the CIA and that it ordered his execution by the Green Berets when he was discovered to be a North Vietnamese agent as well. Not so, says the CIA. About a year ago, the agency decided to limit its work in Viet Nam to intelligence monitoring, and handed over active spying operations to the Green Berets. In mid-June, however, as the CIA tells it, the Green Berets came to the CIA for advice on what to do with a Vietnamese —whom they did not then identify—suspected of being a double agent. The CIA claims that it said that it could do nothing to help, but strongly urged the Green Berets not to kill the man. The agency repeated the advice after learning the agent's name from the Green Berets a few days later. The CIA says that it had not heard of Chuyen before that moment. Nonetheless, Chuyen was killed shortly thereafter. A Green Beret sergeant, Alvin Smith Jr., now one of the eight under detention, came to the CIA office in Nha Trang, explained that Chuyen had been executed, and asked for protection from "a bunch of wild men" in his outfit. The CIA agent alerted the Army's Criminal Investigation Division, which moved Smith to Saigon. General Creighton Abrams, the U.S. commander in Viet Nam, ordered a full-scale probe that led to the arrests. The Green Berets, according to the CIA, at first insisted that Chuyen had been sent on a mission and had simply not returned; later, some changed their tune. The CIA version does not explain the exact role of Colonel Rheault. One theory is that he demanded to be arrested with his subordinates, taking a commander's responsibility for what they did. Why has the CIA broken its customary silence since the arrests? Apparently out of pique at the Army. CIA men in Saigon reportedly asked General Abrams to explain publicly that the agency was not involved in the killing of Chuyen; Abrams refused. Then, in Washington, the agency turned to Army Secretary Stanley Resor, pleading at length to be let off the hook of complicity in Chuyen's death. Once more it got no satisfaction, so now it is leaking its case to the public.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901231,00.html Mystery of the Green Berets Friday Aug. 15, 1969 Although they are the most glamorous and publicized soldiers of the Viet Nam war, the U.S. Army's elite Special Forces have always been enveloped in the sinister. Highly trained in guerrilla and psychological warfare, they operate covertly on the fringes of battle. They often ignore the nominal rules of war in their day-to-day battle for survival in isolated rural areas. Last week the aura of intrigue was deepened and tinged with scandal when the Army's Saigon command announced that eight Green Berets, including the Special Forces commander for all of Viet Nam, had been detained while the Army investigated charges of premeditated murder against them in the shooting of a South Vietnamese. The commander is Colonel Robert B. Rheault, 43, a much-decorated West Pointer. Also arrested were two majors, three captains, a chief warrant officer and a sergeant first class. Ripples of Disbelief. The Army did nothing to lessen the mystery. The killing was said to have occurred June 20 near the Special Forces headquarters at Nha Trang, 200 miles northeast of Saigon. Rheault was relieved of his command on July 21. Who the victim was, what his connections with the war might have been, who brought the charges — all these facts remained secret. Regular military investigating units professed to have no knowledge of the incident, leading to conjecture that the case involved a secret agency, possibly the CIA. This speculation was supported by the fact that at least three of the Green Berets were intelligence specialists. According to one story, the victim was a Vietnamese spy for the Americans, who had disappeared when he was discovered to be a double agent. No body has been found, and rumor has it that the victim was disposed of at sea. Such a killing would not be unique in Viet Nam, not difficult to disguise. Why the Army chose to publicize the case is another mystery. Rarely has an officer of Rheault's high rank faced a murder charge. Thus the case sent ripples of disbelief and disillusionment through Army camps and mess halls. Rheault had been respected and well liked by his men. Said one Green Beret captain: "My first reaction was shock. The second was that Colonel Rheault was getting shafted." Several soldiers had first thought that Rheault was relieved of duty in order to be promoted to brigadier general. Rheault's replacement, Colonel Alexander Lemberes, said he was just as puzzled as everyone else. He had only 15 minutes to pack after being notified that he was replacing Rheault, and subsequently broke his right ankle in a hasty attempt to qualify as a parachutist —something all Green Berets must do. Relatives of the eight men were also left without explanations. Mrs. Rheault said she had sensed that something was wrong from her husband's most recent letters, but relatives of the others said that they had not been aware of any difficulties until news reports of the arrests appeared. By week's end, four of the accused had hired civilian lawyers. Two of the attorneys received security clearances, reinforcing the belief that the case involves some supersecret operation. The Army is now investigating the charges to see if there are grounds for a court-martial. Conviction on a charge of premeditated murder carries a maximum penalty of death.

It's very interesting to now go back to the mid '60s newspaper articles, where all sorts of CIA activity was being alleged, and realize that a lot of it was probably true. But people in the mid '60s didn't have the info that we have now. It's interesting to put yourself back then, just not knowing what we know now. Here Green Berets were on trial for murder, but the case got dropped because CIA wouldn't cooperate. I've been reading another set of articles, where an NCO who was most decorated in Korea, quit in an incident at Fort Bragg, where he was complaining about murders that were done in front of him. Don't know the details of this case. http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50A1FFB345E1B7493C2AA1782D85F4D8685F9 ARMY DROPS BERETS' CASE AS C.I.A. BARS ITS AGENTS FROM TESTIFYING AT TRIAL; RESOR TAKES STEP He Says the Agency's Stand Has Ruled Out Fair Courts-Martial Army Drops Beret Case as C.I.A. Bars Testimony By ROBERT B. SEMPLE Jr. September 30, 1969, Tuesday WASHINGTON, Sept. 29 -- The Army, conceding that it was helpless to enlist the cooperation of the Central Intelligence Agency, today abruptly dropped its case against six Special Forces soldiers who were arrested in July in connection with the alleged murder of a Vietnamese agent. 3 Berets Reportedly Take 5th Amendment Aug 22, 1969 Creighton W. Abrams, commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam, that the South ... The officials have acknowledged that the CIA knew some details of the case, ... Murder Charges Against Eight Green Berets Dropped by Army Sep 30, 1969 Robert B. Rheault, 44, the West Pointer who commanded all Special Forces, (Green Berets) in Vietnam. The CIA had no ARMY DROPS BERETS' CASE AS CIA BARS ITS AGENTS... CIA Ordered 100 Killings, Beret's Attorney Charges SAIGON. Viet Nam. Aug. 16, 1969 UPD-More than 100 agents in South Viet Nam have been ordered killed by the ...

I don't know what the full article says, but he mentions HALO later on. Be interesting to know if things really were secret till '95. I do know that for a while they said there was only one combat parachute jump in Vietnam. We know now that was untrue. "More Dirty Work By Stuart H. Loory August 27, 1973, Monday Page 29, 880 words COLUMBUS, Ohio-The revelation in recent days of clandestine crossborder operations by American ground troops in Cambodia, Laos and North Vietnam during the war reminds me once again that, somewhere in the United States, at least one Vietnam veteran has some important stories to tell." http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60915F6385C1A7A93C5AB1783D85F478785F9 (edit) this is a funny news article from Jan 30, 1966 where they say US Army was doing HALO training..they called it "Horizontal Parachuting" http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=V8UNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=V3QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7146,5230161&dq=horizontal+parachuting

This seems like a good book. Guy covers the history of some of the parchute testing they did stateside, even before the '60s. As well as other stuff. T-10's, E-1, Blank gore. Get this: very early: 1958ish? They tested the Pioneer Parachute Company's "Sky Diver" model (28' canopy). On page 187 they tested jumping up to 150 knots. So the idea that military wouldn't be familar with sport parachutes, isn't exactly right. page 188 http://books.google.com/books?id=hzGE2X2kEIMC&pg=PA188 "Fortune Favors the Brave" By Bruce F. Meyer Publisher: St. Martin's Press Pub. Date: August 2004 ISBN-13: 9780312996802 I found one interesting thing that might be worth investigating. It's possible that the Vietnam HALOs weren't acknowledged until 1995? or is there evidence of earlier acknowledgment? He says on page 241 http://books.google.com/books?id=hzGE2X2kEIMC&pg=PA241 "A number of subsequent HALO insertions were made into Laos and into the border areas of South Vietnam. ....It was not until twenty-five years later, however, that the U.S. Army acknowledged the fact that its Special Forces jumpers (while serving with SOG) had made these combat jumps at all. In 1995, S.Sgt. Cliff Newman and the other HALO parachutists were given special HALO wings with a gold star, indicative of a combat jump." from a review "This is the untold, inside story of a super elite reconnaissance force-U.S. Special Operations Forces who practiced clandestine insertion and extraction by submarine, jet aircraft and helicopter, using tools and techniques that had never been tried before. Strapping you in the harness of a HALO parachute, launching from the torpedo room of a submerged submarine or climbing the extraction rig of a hovering marine chopper, Fortune Favors the Brave is a firsthand account of what it was like to build a new strike force from the ground up... to make sure that the next time America fought a war, Force Recon would be there. At the end of World War II, when daring marine reconnaissance units made a life-and-death difference in island warfare in the Pacific, a secret unit was formed inside the military. With courageous men risking their lives, Test Unit 1 experimented with new ways of inserting marines behind enemy lines-by sea and by land-and then getting them out again. As America barreled towards a confrontation in Indochina and a new era of warfare, First Force Recon was born..."

It does make a lot of sense that I would throw out Billy Waugh, then Billy Waugh would throw out a name, then I would throw out a lot of posts mentioning a lot of stuff, including the 170th, and then there'd be a picture there of the guy Billy was talking about. Life does work that way. I hope the Nat Geo is as good. (edit) Hey, just realized. For anyone who thinks I was glib about throwing Waugh's name in the hat, I didn't see Waugh hesitating much before throwing someone into the same hat. So I be cool.

I was involved in the Nat Geo production. I can give a preview. It opens with Kid Rock Bawitdaba http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6nvrYopHV8 Everyone dances, now! Kid knows Cooper.

Okay 377, I'll stand down. Worst case, I'm just wrong, and owe apologies.

Well yes of course. I love my words. Why would I need you to define me? Sluggo, I'm sure you're a great guy. But there's no point in obsessing about trying to point out that you're not me, and I'm not you. I'm me. I'm happy with it. (contrary to what Georger wants to think)

"the ones who know are the kind of people who can" Ah, the "kind of people" argument. It's good to hang with "your kind" Don't want to touch the "other kind"...that shit might rub off on you. Yup...the "kind of people"..the "good folk"

Sluggo, if you have some goal in my mind, you're just as pitiful as Larry Carr in trying to achieve it. Surely, if you're just trying to be an asshole, you can do better?

Bimbo? On what basis? Is she posing as a trained scientist? Yes. Watch the fbi video closely, she stumbles in trying to act like she's more than she is. She's an illustrator, doing some web searches. If you think I'm wrong, get her on here, and I'll interrogate. Any real scientist could hold up.

"Now for the first time in FBI history a team of citizen sleuths, using modern forensic science, is helping unravel the mystery of D.B. Cooper." Does anyone know anything about the team? I know Tom Kaye. His girlfriend is on the FBI vid, but she seems totally unqualified for anything. I won't say bimbo, but bimbo. What forensic science? Does Kaye have any forensic science training? Who the hell is on this team? Georger has made it sound like there's a secret squad. I wonder if Nat Geo will show the team with their faces and voices blacked out/modified. (edit) I just had a really FUNNY thought. Remember all the bullshit Tom gave about publishing in a scientific journal? The scientific journal is TV!

reading some articles this morning on suicide and homicide rates among returning troops, for various wars. salon has an investigative series here http://dir.salon.com/topics/coming_home/ sure they have a liberal bias, but heck, they're biased in support of soldiers here. It's a good thing for us to think about the guys returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. Being old, it's easy to forget that reality happens now, and the shit we talk about is way way back. Hopefully at least our talking about it gives us perspective. I had a thought about guys like georger, a little older than me. When I grew up, I was a bit younger than the guys returning from Vietnam. But at least I hung around them, like little flies they would laugh at. I get the feeling georger is more mentally connected to the vet experience from before Vietnam. I don't know. I remember getting a green fatigue shirt from my friend John, that was from his uncle in the Air Force. We both had them with the sleeves ripped off, and wore them around town all the time. They were like our little gang colors. Blue name tag, white embroidered letters. I can't remember the guy's name. But he made it home. I remember hitchhiking. You get rides from all sorts. Once a vet on his way to a VA checkup. He had gotten shot up, not in any glory way, but after they took a boat for a joyride into town or something, and got attacked on the way back. Usually they'd pick you up because they wanted someone to roll joints while they were driving. I never was any good at rolling, though.

In my weird twisted mind, I can imagine someone like Waugh seeing it as all upside: 1) if he dies, that's okay..no more war for him, what's a warrior to do? 2) if he lives, he's got the money, pretty confident of evasion skills 3) If caught, he's done so much shit in Vietnam (which isn't over yet), that knowing all the lies and bureaucracy going on, he's pretty sure it will get covered up, since exposing Waugh is worse then just saying "we can't find the hijacker" Basically, no downside for Waugh, at all. There's only downside if you're unskilled. Like Dizzy Dean said: "It ain't braggin' if you can do it" (edit) I can't believe how Jo would misinterpret that line I reprinted. dumb.