SPAWNmaster

Not sure what you mean by this! ... Otherwise, I agree with your other points. There is a stigma now (especially in north america) about the discipline...and it doesn't help that there are people claiming that the lift principle plays a significant role when in fact it could very well be an entirely other phenomenon. Either way I have not seen hard data that could give a definitive statement about the discipline whether you are a fanatic or skeptic. I have a pretty decent frontmonauti going (~20 jumps) and have managed to take 2 people out with me separately, being as safe as possible considering my skill level. In both of those situations the other person was impressed with how cool it looks and how I smoked 'em in both distance and freefall time. I digress... It is what it is. I have fun doing it, I personally consider it a separate discipline within the scope of freeflying (within the context of vertical positions vs. belly flight vs. angled flight) and believe there is a lot of potential to get people into flying at an angle. I do agree there is a lot of pseudoscience being thrown around by atmo advocates but I also do not see anyone throwing out other explanations as to why it works the way it does! Like I mentioned before, I think it's great that someone is willing to go out of their way to develop a progression outline in a budding discipline. I think in SA and Italy where atmo is more popular these days, it will be helpful to promote safety with a pre-established syllabus such as the one outlined by Marco in the original post for this thread.

hah! i know the feeling. glad you're ok though (i assume you are since you didn't specify any injuries). I had come in on a crosswind landing (after following traffic rather than using my own brain to set up) and of course the one landing of the day that I botch, end up with mud all over my back-side and dragged to a halt, stand up and wouldn't you know it I'm in front of the next load waiting for their ride. *embarrassing*. of course I'd rather be embarrassed than injured.

awesome. fyi, by the time this winter comes around if you jump as often as you plan to, by 100 jumps you should be able to set up without a wind sock.

I cannot comment on Midwest but I recommend checking the reviews or doing a search. Not sure how far they're willing to travel for a great experience but I can personally vouch for some of the staff at Atmosphair Skydiving. I gurantee an awesome experience if doing a tandem with Bo.

if you inadvertently perform a water jump, for example by accident, does that count as sufficient water training?

I understand that but I mean I can still tap their knowledge/experience for demo related questions when I talk to them

sweet. I will be trying to get in on Fastrax's canopy control camp at Skyfest in a few weeks so will take advantage of their knowledge and training on demos. thanks.

You know I was actually pretty worried about body position before I even started AFF. I spent about a month just practicing body position (and accidently drilling bad leg position in). What helped was that when I finally did start AFF I had a very strong natural arch at the pelvis from constantly practicing at home and stretching. My honest advice: 1 week doing Bikram (hot) Yoga and you'll be a rubber band.

By the way I will be driving down from upstate New York. If anyone needs a ride hit me up and we might be able to work something out.

There are FAR's covering the use of private aircraft for skydivers...there's a whole discussion on these in the incident report forums. It's not that simple and you would be most likely breaking the rules doing a bandit jump. Rules are there for a reason, but I mean it's not unheard of for people to break rules...don't be a sheep afterall. At the same time if your trying to break rules at least be safe about it. OR you could do it the right way and wait till you have the experience and reqs. That backyard leaving any time soon? you could also look into getting waivers (which would surely be difficult considering you're on student status). my 2cts

thanks for the advice. unfortunately i live in upstate new york so won't be around any of those areas anytime soon. but im in no hurry. any names at the Ranch I could talk to?

wow those pics are awesome! I cannot wait to get my PRO rating! any recommendations on a good place to start other than with lots of accuracy coaching and getting the jump numbers in?

couple of questions... 1) Is the Bob Holler Memorial load the A-license exclusive one? 2) Will team Dirty Sanchez be making a presence at skyfest?

Lyra congrats on the new vision! It looks sweet (especially the stripes!). Can't wait to have my wings by next week

1) Getting my brand new rig in a few days 2) Paying off loans to my dad 3) Skyfest!

Even though I don't want to perpetuate the argument that this thread has become, I have to dispute what you're saying here. I see absolutely no evidence of these guys claiming atmo to be "essentially a different or parallel sport to skydiving." To my understanding, Marco and others are saying that angled flight is a different way of flying, which after giving it a chance I agree with. You mention that in your opinion it is a specialized method of freeflying. I completely agree with that statement as well! Some have come to adopt the term freeflying as a way of describing body flight in general, flying in all directions on all axes in 3d in different ways (including on your belly). To the best of my understanding that also includes atmonauti, which is why I agree with you on that. However based on the merits of it's originality such as things I have already mentioned (extremely slow free fall times, distance, 3D moves at an angle) I also believe that it has characteristics worthy of being a distinct discipline. In fact the SSA has ammended the PASA constitution to include atmonauti as an official discipline. I don't think you can dispute atmo's originality at all, in fact. I mean look at what Gi is doing flying feet first at an angle...if that's not original I don't know what is.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure nobody on here has anything against atmonauti. However, when it's supporters attempt to excite people about the physical impossibilities like nearly defying gravity and making skydiving safer solely through adjusting your angle of attack to some special "custom tube", they're destroying the credibility of anyone and everything involved with atmonauti. Which is really what the problem comes down to... The roots of this are obviously a few guys trying to make a profit and possibly some fame in the process. I assume they either think people are stupider than they are, or they themselves are a few tickets short of a threeway. Maybe they didn't consider that on average, skydivers are quite a bit more educated (and probably intelligent) than the average person. Even if they had come up with something truly new and unique (which this is definitely NEITHER), a better approach to developing some sort of coaching program would be to ask other expert's opinions as opposed to essentially telling them how things are gonna go down. But I guess that would've completely defeated their purpose. I agree with your first point about some of the claims I have heard about significant amounts of lift being generated. I have about 20 atmonauti (don't claim to be an expert by any means) jumps. It is an absolute blast and there's a lot to be learnt from it especially for people just getting into the sport such as myself. What really sold it to me was my alti-track consistently giving 81mph average freefall speeds and that I was getting some serious distance (sorry no gps data) during jumps. I think this is something that really vouches for the legitimacy of extremely slow freefall times as claimed by atmonauti regardless of whether it is caused by any amount of lift being generated or whatever other phenomena it might be. What's interesting to me as well, is how I cannot achieve these thresholds in regular flat track. Not saying the whole human airfoil is what the deal is but it speaks to the authenticity of atmo as an entirely seperate discipline. What does someone with 56 jumps know about the sport or tracking jumps? Not much, it's just my opinion. I have low jump numbers and little experience in most disciplines (atmo and freefly being what I do all the time these days) so take my opinions with a grain of salt!!! but like I said, I do agree how it makes the discipline look bad when some people make outrageous statements. now... I would like to think that Tiezzi and Ciocca and some of the other big names of the discipline are not trying just to make a profit out of this or get some fame. I do not know any of them in person so would like to give them the benefit of the doubt wouldn't you? It's a bit cynical to think otherwise, unless you have examples of why this might be true. also.... As far as the proposed coaching program, I think you are mistaken in thinking they are not qualified in taking the initiative and putting something forth. That I know of, Marco Ciocca has over 2000 jumps and is a Pro-rated wingsuit instructor and IAD jumpmaster. Tiezzi has significant qualifications as well and there are plenty other advocates of the discipline (i'm sure) who are well qualified to develop concepts like this too. No where did Marco or anyone else say "this is the way it goes down." I'm sure if you sent him an email or PM with critiques of the program especially if you are an instructor and have experience developing coaching programs, they would probably adopt some of your ideas to develop a stronger program. my 2cts

Thank you for the reminder Dawn. Even though I'm still jumping pro-shop gear (should have my brand new rig by next week) it's always good to be reminded to do *complete* gear reviews every so often as parts do wear down and need rigging. edit: i guess i was thinking outloud with this post...doesn't really pertain to the topic.

Gotcha! thanks for that...confirms i actually know something about the way my gear works

why is this? does it have something to do with how you first pull the center over to the side before "pizza-folding"?

Here we go again. Next, someone is going to tell him skydiving is safer than driving to the DZ. considering what i have to put up with getting there, i feel safer on any given skydive than on the way to the dropzone. YMMV! amen bro. my 3 hour drive to the dz is almost as dangerous as the drive back. everything else in between is pretty manageable.

Interesting! Personally, I got the cordura boc on my wings because I heard that spandex needs to be replaced more often and cordura is pretty durable. As a lowtime jumper I wasn't aware of this being a fashion or trend sort of thing.

second jump on my brand new shiny deepseed suit (yesterday) i slid in on a landing and got mud all over the back!

turtlespeed: where are you located? i'm a great wingman and can probably give you a good learning experience on cold approaches for 3 sets (and up)..

It is my understanding that the articulated harness rings are supposed to be right on your hip-bones for a proper fit, actually.