deltron80

you sound a lot like middle century bishops and cardinals did have a good weekend - partly cloudy here I may sound like them, but what I'm saying is based in reality and I don't molest kids. You have a good weekend too.

clearly this statement shows you aren't then reading my posts and are just trolling along - I'm agnostic, if that, I don't really care about the existence or non-existence of deities, though I lean to non, because the rationalization of the pro side is a bit silly to me for all the religions - though a giant bowl of spaghetti sounds awesome the ONLY belief I'm espousing is respecting and tolerating others the irony of your post in terms of tolerance is amazing here Nope I read your posts. You sound like a mealy mouthed half believer christian apologist. Shit or get off the pot bro.

If you are only worried about violent cults, then I'm on your side. But this is just a general religion discussion - when the topic comes up I normally think of the everyday guy that has a belief and quietly lives a decent life. Apparently your default mode is guys that fly airplanes into buildings. I suspect my default is more representative than yours, but maybe not where you live. Unless you're just super sensitive and get offended if someone says "bless you" when you sneeze... "BLESS YOU? BLESS YOU?!!! Look you asshole, I don't need you pushing your myth down my throat and you creating freakin' laws to make people say 'bless you' after a sneeze. I'm just fine with 'guesundheit' THANK YOU VERY MUCH - Just keep your damn fantasies to yourself or I'll hit you in the shin with a small bat" though I would like to have a law to change the spelling to "ga zune hite" - that would nice you crack me up, Del. I don't know a single "born again" that's as religious as you are. Jakee and I are actually having a good discussion here, at least. Common ground with different reaction, but the common is easy enough to work from. Christianity and Islam are both extremely violent intolerant cults. Read the Bible or the Koran if you don't believe me. I don't get angry at people for saying 'bless you' or 'oh my god.' Those are just figures of speech. I use them all the time myself. I'm not 'religious' or anything of the sort. I'm just rejecting beliefs you and others are espousing. That's not a belief in anything other than objective reality. There could be a supernatural dimension. I have no idea. I don't claim to know unlike you all.

I don't know or care if Jesus actually existed. I'm just responding to your claims that he does.

What do you call an extremist? Muslim terrorists and abortion clinic bombers? Just any organized church with buildings and corrupt leadership? Missionaries that knock on your door? Your neighbor that goes to church every Sunday and prays at every meal? Your neighbor that churches every Sunday but that's about it, doesn't even talk about it really outside of church? The one friend that prays a little bit only when she's scared a bit? just want to know where you draw the line I'm not a fan of fanatics, but I'd only go with your anger with the first group (but you find them in non-religious organizations too). The 2nd is pretty much like any political group, corrupt company, the global warming leadership, etc etc etc (power attracts the corrupt - religion is only one face of that coin). The 3rd are annoying, but not people I mind too much (there are pretty much the counterpart to how you are really). The rest (even the 3rd though I'd prefer they become 'quietly religious') are the ones I consider don't deserve the vitriol or intolerance. I guess I'm 'apologizing' for them? Even if I don't share their beliefs, I don't think they have anything to apologize for (except for disturbing my dinner/movie), so that's a confusing accusation. Would you be pissed off at your wife if a placebo cured her of a life threatening illness? Yes, in the hierarchy of extremists I would obviously put Muslim & Christian terrorists first, followed closely by those who judge others and try to get laws changed to infringe others' rights (people who hate gays, atheists, etc), then people who try to spread the religion and steal 10% or more of their followers' income, then those supporting it all bringing up the rear. Just a few examples for you. The placebo effect is a scientific response that happens in real life. Not sure how it's relevant to our discussion of violent cults.

Religion is not a 'tool' it is an intellectual cage. If anyone is using it as a tool it is those in power using it to control you. You consistently defend religious beliefs that harm society. They do not help anyone. If someone thinks it helped them they are delusional. People that sit on the fence between the two sides and make apologies for religious extremists might as well be extremists themselves. By supporting this tripe in any way you are just validating and lending moral support to a morally and philosophically bankrupt system of thought control and I refuse to agree with any of that. The truth will always win in the end.

Oh those poor, persecuted, innocent believers! Give me a break. Religion is extremely harmful to human society and advancement as well as to the individual mind. It's basically child abuse to tell kids they are going to Hell unless they believe in an invisible sky daddy. People that finally want to stand up to the religious are not "bullies." It's usually the religious bullying the non-religious, not the other way around. Let's not get confused. I'm done tip toeing around the arrogantly delusional cultists all around me. Times are a-changin' folks. Get on the trolley or get left behind.

Trotting out the few questionable peripheral references to an up and coming cult of the first century doesn't help. Those texts are even less reliable than the gospels. The earliest gospel (Mark) was written like 50 years after Jesus died. These all came even later and are revisions of the original author's writing anyway...just like the Bible. Josephus is a popular one. His 2 references to Jesus in that book are generally agreed to be forgeries added later... Where are the contemporary accounts of Jesus?

Actually it was not "chronicled" by any of his contemporaries at all. But hey, "throughout time" is good enough.

Thank you billvon. Excellent post. The vast majority of those in successful addiction recovery are maintaining sobriety with a belief in God as they understand Him. So in a couple hundred years when no one believes this horse shit any more we'll all be alcoholic crack heads? Makes total sense.

I think you might be confusing the bible with "evidence." There is no evidence of these events whatsoever outside of the bible. There is no record at all of the Jews even being enslaved in Egypt let alone parting the Red Sea or wandering the desert for 40 years. The Egyptians kept pretty good records for those days and we have no record of this. They certainly didn't build the pyramids. The movie 'The Ten Commandments' is not considered scientific evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. If the sun went out or "stopped" when Jesus was crucified, why is there no record of it anywhere but the gospels? Certainly the other advanced civilizations around the world would have noticed the sun "stopping for an hour." Edited to add: The flood story is so patently absurd it doesn't qualify for a response.

As a connoisseur of mediocre sci-fi films, I give Prometheus an A+ although I could've done without the gratuitous religious overtones.

Well being that God doesn't exist I guess you actually did all that on your own huh? Nice job! But seriously, it's great you were able to harness something fundamentally bad to serve as a positive force in your life. That doesn't change the fact that it's most likely not true. It's also turned you against non-believers, made you reject most of science (evolution, etc), made you think gays are evil, and has you under the false belief that you will live for eternity. I would prefer to know and accept the truth in my life than to "succeed" under a lie. An ugly truth is always better than a pleasant fiction, don't you agree? Bottom line is that as humanity progresses and advances, we will ultimately leave all religions behind. People of the future (if we don't destroy ourselves first) will look back and snicker at your beliefs just as we do today about Odin or Zeus.

You see, that is the adolescent mind in argument. You ask a question and I answer from personal experience. You deny my personal experience and ask for other evidence. I provide evidence of like minded thought from other well known scholars. You accuse me of not being able to think for myself. I provide you with evidence from a first person point of view. You say first person point of view is not valid. Bottom line, you are seeking validation for a decision that you made which caused heartache with your parents. Ergo adolescent rebellion. IMHO That is OK with me. I do not walk in your shoes. I do not have to live with your choices. I know that a strong defense exists for a reason. You are certainly entitled to yours. And remember, I do not have to sell. I choose to share. You may choose not to accept. I travel a narrow path that not many seek. I like it that way. I'm way past adolescence, but you probably associate my views with young people because your views are dying out with your generation. I'm sorry you've spent your whole life devoted to a lie, and you're obviously too far gone to change your opinions now, but thankfully I was able to pull myself out of it. I'm not seeking validation here, I'm just trying to help others realize that they don't need to remain in your violent, intolerant cult which claims the majority of humanity will be tortured for eternity. Your religion is a lie and you've damaged our society by perpetuating it. I'm willing to overlook that in your case due to the incredible contribution you've made to human flight. If anyone reading this is doubting their faith, send me a PM and I'll help you the rest of the way out. Having been on both sides, I assure you it's much better to be free.

So you can't answer a simple question, nor can you use your own words to get an idea across. Try thinking for yourself sometime. I know the church forbids it, but you might be pleasantly surprised.

"“Whatever you ask in My name, that I will do . . . .” The disciple who abides in Jesus is the will of God, and what appears to be his free choices are actually God’s foreordained decrees. Is this mysterious? Does it appear to contradict sound logic or seem totally absurd? Yes, but what a glorious truth it is to a saint of God." (Emphasis mine) ~Oswald Chambers The reality exists in the illogical. That is the way God works. If what appears to be our "free choices" are actually just God's "foreordained decrees," why pray to try to get him to change his mind? If we have no free will and everything is predestined to happen, why would he say "whatever you ask in My name, that I will do"? That's completely contradictory. I agree, it does seem absurd.

Proof of evolution relevant to skydivers: http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-rt-us-gonorrhoea-whobre8550g9-20120606,0,3744701.story Not only is gonorrhea becoming resistant to antibiotics, it no longer feels like passing razor blades!

He probably doesn't even know what he means himself. When you're brainwashed for your entire life you don't even know what your slogans and mottos mean anymore. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia, after all. Everyone knows that. He probably just meant that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity. It's cool for them to threaten us with eternal torture, but you can't question them. That's just rude.

Funny how all the theists wander off when the conversation begins making any kind of logical sense. Religious platitudes only get you so far in an argument. I'm declaring this thread a victory for free thinkers everywhere.

The opposite may also occur. People my do/act however they want in any given moment, and ultimately treat others like shit for the same reason. Just a thought. And purely for the sake of argument, I would think devout Buddhists would tend to treat others decently while also believing this isn't the only life we have. Zach Religious morality is derived from human morality. It's not the other way around, but thanks for playing. Sorry man, I didn't know it was a contest. I thought it was a discussion. That said, there are plenty of non-religious people who I would wager you would consider immoral. Zach Edited to remove unnecessary snarkyness. I don't want to be a part of that club. Sorry about my tone, but morality has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. There are immoral people on both sides, but I bet there are more in the religious column.

The opposite may also occur. People my do/act however they want in any given moment, and ultimately treat others like shit for the same reason. Just a thought. And purely for the sake of argument, I would think devout Buddhists would tend to treat others decently while also believing this isn't the only life we have. Zach Religious morality is derived from human morality. It's not the other way around, but thanks for playing.

Ok fair enough...

I don't think they are an attack at all. But you are doing some major generalizing and assuming about a subject that is extremely personal for those who do have some form of belief. Have you ever considered there might be more than one correct answer to your questions? I admit I'm generalizing a lot to try to get my points across, but you answered that you believe in it "because it makes you feel good" and that you "could care less if it's true." If you only believe something because it makes you feel good, that's not an actual reason to believe it...it's more of an admission that you have no reason to believe it. If you have a real reason I'm willing to hear you out. Furthermore, if you don't even care whether it's true or not, how do you expect to be taken seriously? Surely someone that has based their belief system on a religion should at least care whether it's true? I do care whether it's true or not, and I sort of wish it was true because it would make me feel good to know I can have eternal life. On the other hand, once you shed these ideas the concept of eternal life loses some of the appeal. It's miracle enough that we're all here right now having this conversation. I don't need a promise of an afterlife to enjoy this one or to be a decent person. I'll admit that I have a soft spot for the concept of karma like most people, but I fear it's just another fairy tale as well. :(

Well thanks, but I do actually know a little something about it... I'm the first in several generations on my father's side not to become an ordained minister and I attended church twice a week for my entire childhood until I was 19. I even went on mission trips. Much to my parents' chagrin, my "faith" has been in free fall ever since. It's taken me over 10 years since leaving the church to reach this point. People not born into indoctrination have no idea how lucky they are to be free to make their own decisions. I think a lot of Christians are good people, but they are misled. The religion can bring out bad things in otherwise good people such as intolerance and close mindedness. I think most have lost their way from Jesus' true teachings.

Faith doesn't provide any real knowledge other than how to blindly submit to authority. Faith and religious belief may have some seemingly positive effects on your life, but none that you couldn't have achieved on your own. In fact, the "knowledge" that all your sins will be forgiven only encourages sin in my opinion. The real problem is, having that faith is mentally stifling and probably holding you back in other ways you may not realize. If you already think you have the answers to the universe, why continue to search out and seek the real answers? Faith stifles human experience rather than enhancing it in my opinion.