deltron80

It's odd how people scrutinize how I word my rejections of their claims when they can't even enunciate why they believe a claim they are making.

I'm agnostic - I reject any claim there absolutely is one I reject any claim there absolutely isn't one I don't reject a person's claim that they choose to 'believe' one way or another I applaud those that just don't care or, at least believe one way but let others live and let live - but I'm biased to that opinion. I don't see a contradiction from Del on this particular rejection. They are accusing me of being a gnostic atheist, asserting god definitely doesn't exist. I'm actually an agnostic atheist. I don't know if god exists, and therefore I do not accept that god exists. Atheist - no belief in god Theist - belief in god Agnostic - thinks we can't know whether god exists Gnostic - thinks we can know whether god exists Me - Agnostic Atheist Coreece - Gnostic Theist

I don't know the answer. You and others are claiming to know the answer. I am not claiming to know the answer. Until I hear otherwise I will assume god doesn't exist.

Again, this is your experience, not mine...stop projecting. Oh really? So you believe in evolution and being gay is not an abomination? ok cool Wow...got double standards? Deltron: See what I mean, it's like talking to a Jabberwacky...lol Sorry, but I re-read your answers and you never actually answered the questions why do you believe in god and why do you believe the bible is true? They're very specific questions. The answer, "it makes me feel good" states how the belief makes you feel, but the question I asked is why do you believe in the first place. That's a big "IF" It seems as though you've already made up your mind and have given up. If not, I wish you well in your journey...Godspeed. I haven't given up at all. It seems you've given up trying to convince me since you have nothing substantive to say about why you even believe it.

The only thing I'm angry about is that I was brainwashed and not allowed to make my own decisions as a child. If you need to indoctrinate children into a religion from birth to get them to actually believe it, what does that say about your religion? I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to my views, nor have I "fabricated" a reality. Reality just is. No one can change what is actually true. God either exists or he doesn't. I'm just trying to let others know that religion is a shitty source for truth and knowledge. It's interesting in an academic sense, but has no practical value. I'm not trying to spread anger and hate, just truth. Sometimes the truth isn't pretty. For example, there is probably no afterlife. If it weren't for people's urge to seek the truth we'd still be in the Dark Ages. Would you prefer that? I honestly don't know if there is a god or not so I've reset to the default position that there is no god, and I reject your claim that there is one. So far no one can even give a reason why they believe in one, so that's hardly convincing. If you have a good reason to believe there is a god, please share it with us. Ok, then what do you believe in exactly? Why even follow a religion that has been so bastardized and corrupted over the years? How do you know which bits are good and which were added later?

What I meant when I said religion has negative effects on us all is that it dramatically restricts your outlook and your worldview. You stop thinking for yourself and asking questions when you think you already know all the answers. In your case, maybe it has had a net positive effect since you claim you would be evil without it. Oh so your parents weren't Christian? Did you not encounter any Christians growing up? Did you first hear about the religion at 27? Why aren't you Muslim or Hindu instead? I didn't catch the reasons why you believe. Maybe you could go over them again. I never said it was a bad thing that your faith makes you feel good. Earlier in the thread I asked if you care whether your religion is true or not. You obviously don't if the only criterion you measure by is whether it makes you feel good. I actually do care whether the religion is true, so I need to question it further than just how it makes me feel. You can obviously believe whatever you want, but when your religion starts to have negative effects on the broader society it becomes a problem. This might help you understand my position a little better: http://i.imgur.com/BCEDb.jpg

Projecting one's negative experience of religion onto everyone else is far from intelligent...it's just typical everyday bigoted ignorance. I would argue religion has had a net negative effect on you, me, and all of society. Why defend it?

Nope...but I do think he should read the whole thread before he asks me about things I've already covered.

Do you believe in god?

http://godisimaginary.com/

Apparently not... This is the second time you've replied "apparently not" when I said I used to be a christian like you. Are you suggesting it's not possible for a "true christian" to leave their religion? You're f'ing kiddin' me right? ...another joe schmoe know-it-all diagnosing people over the internet with their Judgmentalism... The fact that you smugly dismiss every non-believer without offering any counter argument other than a bible verse makes you a know-it-all as well. At least I provide reasons for my assertions. You've also condemned me to hell several times so I think that makes you the more judgmental one.

Ya...we know what that's about. I wish they could feel it. Well we've been there...they haven't been here. Right on man...they should rejoice, right? If they only knew... "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist..." Coreece, maybe you should search in your bible for a verse about humility. You're not so special, my friend. I was once a full fledged believer and I had my own "spiritual" experiences as you call them so I know exactly what you're talking about. If anyone has a broader spectrum of insight, I've been on both sides of the fence and you have not. You don't know what it's like to see the religion for what it really is. You seem a bit full of yourself claiming to have unique knowledge of spiritual phenomena as well as personal supernatural powers and a transcendent intellectual state. If this is true, maybe you should consider joining the clergy. You will probably dismiss this and deny that I've shared similar experiences to you, but that just proves my point. You claim special insight into some deep understanding, but you're not backing it up with anything other than vague insinuation. If you're only following the christian religion so you can feel superior to others and keep your evil desires in check I think you might want to evaluate your motivations. If god exists he will be very angry about your claims.

I got hurt during AFF on my 10th jump.. just force your way through the terror. Don't let it stop you.

Thank you for the offer Ron, but I don't need any help at the moment.

You start with a belief statement (I doubt) and then continue on stating "facts". Do you have any scientific evidence to back up these "facts" or are they just part of your beliefs? Believing all people are basically good and sound and labelling those who do not conform to such behaviour as mentally ill is a concept really very similar to that preached by organized religion. Hmmm...I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's probably not as evil as he claims he is. The church indoctrinates people to think they are evil, vile, worthless, debased creatures, capable of nothing but through god. Some people are actually very bad, this is true. I love that everyone is telling me I sound "religious" though.

I doubt that without your religious belief you would have no moral compass. All people have natural empathy and a desire to help others. It doesn't come naturally to harm others unless you're mentally ill or defending your family from attack, etc. The bible constantly tells us we are inherently evil and worthless so I can see how you might think that. On the other hand, if you are some kind of violent sociopath tenuously clinging to morality only via your fear of divine judgement, then that is a little scary.

I am not willing to play head games with you any longer. A thought produced when I was attempting to make a joke of your response, in the same as vein as Coreece. I sense what you are dealing with and I must back off. One-upsmanship, or IGYYSOB, is not always a safe parlor game. I believe ethically I should only communicate with you 1:1 in private messages. Contact me if you choose to do so. If not that's OK. Your god killed millions of people in the bible. He condones genocide, rape, and the killing of children. By any measure I am vastly morally and ethically superior to your archaic pre-modern Genghis Khan-like warlord god. I don't think I have much to gain in seeking guidance from people who worship such a god. If you're right and your religion is true, I would be more inclined to assume the devil wrote the bible to deceive you into being evil. If there is a final judgment, I don't want to be counted as someone who worshiped such a horrible force for evil in this world. Good luck with that.

Nothing in the world could do that. Which is why faith is a very dangerous thing. Ya...it can be. I've recently learned how to control people and life situations with my mind. It scares the shit out of me...It's hard for me to trust myself with that level of power. It's probably a good thing for you that I fear God. That brought tears to my eyes. So...the only reason you guys don't smite us with your supernatural powers is because you're afraid of the wrath of your vengeful god? Wow...you guys sound like really great and moral people! So does your god. Keep up the witnessing. You're just raking in the conversions.

Again I ask, what do you fear? How is what I fear relevant? I certainly don't fear threats from brainwashed people's imaginary gods...I guess I fear the normal things everyone does...canopy collisions, herpes, brain eating amoebas, etc... real things.

Haha...oh boy thanks for the warning! We're not afraid of your imaginary totalitarian dictator god who commands either eternal worship or eternal torture...that is completely absurd and even if it were true, a horrible god like that would not be worthy of our worship. You sound like one of those starving North Korean peasants praising their dear leader for his merciful bounty. Pathetic.

I was using the term eclectic as a counseling term. I don't know what you are talking about. To clarify, I am a Christian who was employed as a counselor. Prior to that I had a private Christian counseling practice. Two different job descriptions and functions. Ok, but still 90%...not so narrow.

So Ron, if non-believers are so eclectic, and over 90% of Americans believe in God, I guess your path isn't all that narrow is it? http://www.claybennett.com/pages2/theaters.html

We need the cheap labor. Simple as that. Who is going to clean hotel rooms and pick lettuce? How is this so confusing? edited to add: The immigrants on the other end of the economic spectrum, the ones that come here to use our education system, are also useful. They become doctors, engineers, etc. We should stop revoking their visa's upon graduation and actually utilize their skills to build our country.

So Dan, tell us about how your ancestors didn't come here to work hard for low pay in exchange for a better life for their kids. This country would be in deep trouble without a steady flow of cheap immigrant labor.

It's not as much fun when the heathen bite back is it? lol Here's some atheist propaganda for all y'all to enjoy. http://i.imgur.com/ffVYJ.jpg