UDSkyJunkie

I agree with the people who say you should get through the student program, ect before worrying too much about gear. Also, there will be riggers, instructors, and veterans at your DZ who will be happy to help with this decision. That said, I'll give you my opinions... first what I consider the "best" novice equipment, and 2nd what I consider a good balance of cost, performance, and reliability. "Ideal" first rig: Container: Vector III with Skyhook Main: Spectre or similar canopy, loaded at 1.1:1 or below Reserve: PD Reserve, same size or one size bigger than main AAD: Cypress II You could get this stuff used for $3500 or less, probably more like $5500 if you bought it new. Recommend used, as you would likley upgrade some or all within 500 jumps or less. "Budget" first rig: Container: As long as it's modern, they're all safe... Wings, Javelin or Racer Elite/2K3 are easier to find for a good price. Main: Sabre1. These are great canopies... take the hype that they open "brutally" hard with a grain of salt. I loved mine, and they can be found in excellent condition for a very good price. Reserve: PD reserve or a Raven, with no more than 1 or 2 rides. AAD: Cypress with at least 5 years left on it. You could put together the "budget" rig for $2000 - $2500 if you are patient. Just make sure you have a rigger advising you with all purchases, and listen to him. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Airtwardo, I've seen a lot of your posts, and you usually have good points, but I have to disagree with your comments on this thread. You've been around long enough to know that if even one person was killed skydiving in a year, it would be big news... a reduction in fatalities is always a good thing, but it will have little effect on the interest in the sport. Perception of danger overpowers reality. Movies like Dropzone, Cutaway, and Point Break do probably bring people in, and that's good... but they also proliferate the myth that skydivers are all crazy drug-dealers with a death wish, and personally I could do without that. I also know more people that do not swoop than do. But I could say the same about freefliers, skyboarders, mega big-way jumpers, CReW dogs, wingsuit fliers, BASE jumpers, Demo jumpers, and more. All of those genres are more dangerous in some way or another than normal belly-flying, yet each brings unique aspects to the sport, and keeps people of differing interest all jumping. This is a good thing, and should always be supported... in a safe and logical manner, of course. Freeflying went through growing pains, and required significant updates to our equipment, and all have benefitted. Other genre's have helped the sport in ways I know less about. Swooping is no different Brian has proposed a logical beginning to a solution, and I for one am happy to finally see a swooper take the initiative. The idea of simply banning swooping is every bit as arrogant, short-sighted, and selfish as the all-too-common swooper response of "fuck off, I'll do what I want" after they almost take out a student in the landing area. For the record, I am a beginning swooper, but it is not my passion... were it banned, I would continue jumping because my thing is 4-way. However, that is not a good solution. Eloy has made their decision, as is their right, and I respect that, but I hope other large DZ's will find a more balanced approach. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I would slightly alter this: "after a main malfunction AND CUTAWAY (unless it's a total), any reserve that does not pass a control check". The difference in my mind is that a double-malfunction implies that the gear malfunctioned twice. If the main and reserve are entangled, then one or the other or both were deployed in a manner outside their design parameters. If your main has a horseshoe, or you fail to cutaway, or your cypres fires, or something else happens to entangle them it is the result of either a bad decision or bad luck, not a reserve malfunction. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Repeat after me: "Plan the dive, dive the plan!" The freeflier IMO made a poor decision here, especially with rookies on the dive. I think you made a reasonable decision, although had it been me, I'd have altered my direction more like 60-90 degrees, and kept an eye open for the rookie. Sometimes the right thing to do is dump high... I have a very flat track, and will occasionally end up above or parallel to someone who would not be able to see me. On a 3-way, I would alter course like you, but on a 12-way that wouldn't work... I'd just end up above someone else. Instead, it would be better to dump at 3500 or so, and allow the other person to provide the separation. I'll probably get yelled at for that comment because if the other person also opens high it could backfire... but in my opinion that is less risky than waiting, possibly having someone dump in your face, and then having to go low to avoid opening near them. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

A little blunt, but I agree with everything, stratostar. So far in my skydiving career I've been either 1) the low-timer getting a lot of help from the local experts, or 2) on a team, and unable to help the newbies out much due to time and money constraints. However... This year I find myself not on a team, and minus the fastrax guys (who are obviously 10 times the skydiver I am, but are also incredibly busy), I'm now one of the best local RW guys. We've got a bunch of OSU kids out here with 50-200 jumps that are kicking ass for their experience level, and it's been a blast to help them out when I can.

Don't know if "interesting" is the right word, but most memorable: the first person I taught to pack... VERY attractive, 18-year-old girl from west virginia, who always walked around in daisy dukes and a bikini top and had a cute southern accent. Meanwhile, I was an awkward 13 year old boy who was always shy around girls, and for obvious reasons had enough trouble just keeping my jaw off the floor, let alone trying to teach her to pack. Talk about trial by fire! But I did it. Teaching people older than my dad when I was 14 or 15 was always interesting too. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I would reluctantly agree with you IF all jav's were sold with an RSL installed. Since they are also sold without them installed, clearly that configuration is also approved. This can quickly get into a big argument about the definition of a "modification", and rigger privalages and a bunch of other BS. I have to agree that the statment "highly recommended" is a poor choice of words. They should say "the RSL shall not be removed" or "removal of the RSL is considered a modification and can only be preformed by the manufacturer or a certificated master rigger" or "removal of the RSL is not recommended, but the system is certified for use without it". "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

As a rigger who's seen people do all sorts of weird shit to their gear that is potentially dangerous... no, it shouldn't. it would only encourage the lazy and stupid to not really learn, but assume they can do things because others can. I agree with you that people should learn their gear, but it is unfortunately a truth that many don't want to. I'd rather those people at least left the work to someone who knows what they're doing. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

paracommander Mark III? j/k, actually, that canopy was just fine. It'd be a tough call between a manta 288 with 3000+ jump on it (which couldn't flare for shit even with my whopping 125 lbs beneath it), and a raider 220 also with 3000+ jumps on it (which I had resolved to take in on 7 cells until the last two on the right hand side popped out at 500 ft... it was flying strait and level and controllable, so I figured what the hell?!?) I prefer my Sabre2

I did a *few* jumps on a 120 vengance a while back... flew like a dream, opened like shit. Tended to open in a solid turn (not quite a spin) and stay there until the toggles were popped. More than one vengeance owner that I talked to about this said that their canopy did the same thing. I have heard rumors that PD fixed the lineset and it doesn't do that anymore, but they aren't confirmed. On the flying side, I'd say similar to a Sabre2 (that's what I fly now), but I didn't do enough vengance jumps to give a more detailed answer. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

that'd be a neat trick, wouldn't it? I would think the patent would prevent such legislation for 20 years or so even if they tried. But seriously... AAD's aren't, and RSL's aren't, why would skyhook be? I wouldn't be surprised, however, if UPT made skyhook mandatory on new student rigs sometime in the future. Go skyhook! I should get my rig back with a brand new shiny skyhook in a couple weeks.

Darrell and Darrell. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I don't fit your category of 500+ on a crossbrace, but I do have about 350 jumps on 120's and 500+ on 135's, and I am somewhat addicted to the speed and responsiveness that comes with them. The answer is yes... I love the canopy flight, and I love to swoop, but my first love is 4-way. If I had to go to a spectre loaded 1:1 in order to keep jumping, but could still keep ratcheting up my 4-way average, I'd do it in a heartbeat. On a similar note though, say I REALLY hurt myself and it meant I couldn't ever hope to do good 4-way again (say, at least a 10 average)... not sure I could deal with that so well. although stories like that of Dan BC make me think that if you want it bad enough it won't matter how bad you get hurt. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Yes, but it can being varying degrees... my genre (4-way) I don't feel to be all that extreme, although shit does happen, and people do die doing it. My 2nd genre, which I'm much less accomplished at (swooping) is absolutely extreme, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with that. for those who say skydiving is not extreme, what the hell is? harley ice-racing? fuck that! "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I've already posted my opinions on my current preference, however, I actually think that interview demonstrates that the people making the Vigil are doing everything they can to make a good product. their "it worked the way it was designed" statement was not an excuse, it was a statement of fact. they then went on to say that the design must change. this is no different from the statements that have been made by Airtec when Cypresses have misfired or not fired. I prefer the Cypres today because more things have already gone wrong... they've already misfired from static, had people use them in situations they didn't forsee, use them blatantly outside their design parameters... I have more knowledge of what can go wrong, why, and how to prevent it. If the Vigil manufacturer keeps their current attitude, they will have an excellent product a few years from now, although I will never support their decision to not require regular checkups througout the life of the unit. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

They do indeed... unfortunately, as the Argus is not popular in the US, I know little about that aspect of the company. Conversely, I live literally 30 minutes from SSK and one of our pilots worked there for many years. Yes, it is. I call the Argus "unknown", not "unsafe". I would agree if the AAD had a way to warn the user it had shut off (audible signal, maybe?) If the jumper screws up, and the AAD does not fire because it has shut itself off (or the design parameters were exceeded), it has failed to save the jumper. Different from killing them yes, but they are dead regardless. Many now-standard developments in skydiving were once higher risk... piggyback containers, throw-out pilot chutes, tandems, ram-air parachutes... each was once in fact less safe than the alternatives, and many pioneers and "test jumpers" in the public died figuring out how to fix them. All jumpers today ought to thank them. Other higher risk ideas didn't work so well... double-dactyl anyone? ropes and rings? the "opening shock inhibitor" on the Delta II? soft cutaway housings? We owe the people who died jumping that stuff too. I prefer to be in the more conservative crowd that adopts new technologies as they are proven. I in fact just sent my rig in for the skyhook mod, which I think has seen enough field data for my peice of mind. But I'll wait several years before considering a low-bulk reserve, even though I support PD at least as much as I do Airtec. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Not an insult. You misunderstand my definition of "risk". In aviation, one benchmark of reliability is the number of failures per million hours of flight. If a part is designed a new way that has not seen 1 million flight hours, it is identified as "higher risk" than the previous design. That does not mean it's an inferior design, or that the person who accepts it is stupid, just that the real reliability is not yet known. The new design is subjected to greater scrutiny, data is tracked, ect. Typically, after a few years in the field, that design is found to be just as good or better than the previous, and is no longer considered "higher risk". It is the same with the Cypres vs. vigil and argus debate... are they better products? Maybe... actually, I hope they are. If they are, it will force Airtec to improve further, and the general saftey of AAD's will increase. Are they "higher risk" until proven otherwise, absolutely yes. Why do you think the Argus is safer? Test data? Material analysis showing a more robust design? Field data? (I'm honestly asking the question, not trying to insult). If you don't have substantial evidence, then your belief that you are safer with your Argus is opinion and nothing more. For the record, there are certain deisgn aspects of the Cypres that I think are inferior to other AAD's. One example is that the Vigil uses a hard lead between the wires to the cutter and the box, whereas the Cypres does not. The Vigil design is superior in this one small way... in most other ways, it is unknown. Cypres is lower risk TODAY becuase it's quality is KNOWN. In time, the Argus and Vigil will become better known, and Cypres may no longer be lower risk. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Dude, seriously... Correct. However, the Cypres 2 had the benefit of 10+ years of detailed, scientific research of field problems, customer feedback, and tens of thousands of returned units to spot problems before they occured. They also had designers with lots of experience and a steady stream of income to fund the improvements. Vigil and Argus are ahead of the original cypres, but they simply do not have the experience that Airtec does. Yes, and my post said so. Cypreses, Vigils, and Argus have all had failures, and all will continue to have failures. No product will ever be perfect. However, Airtec already went through a lot of the growing pains that the Vigil and Argus are going through today... I am confident that for the next several years we will see fewer issues with Cypres. 10 years from now, (I hope) I won't be able to make that claim with confidence. Today, I can. good for Argus, I'm happy to hear that! And I'm sure the factory would work with me on an issue with a Vigil. Problem is, that issue could range from "crap, it won't start" to a failure resulting in death. Required maintenance can identify a problem that has occured before someone dies, or more likley repair damage before it's a problem. The roughly $400 bill that comes with that over 12 years (that's less than 2 jump tickets a year) is worth the peice of mind to me. And the vast majority of jumpers don't keep jumping to the end of their cypresses life anyway (or even to the 8-year check for that matter). Fact: Airtec has more than a decade of experience above anyone else making cutter-style AAD's. Fact: Without routine field returns, vigils will be at a handicap to Airtec and Argus in identifying problems they don't know about yet. Fact: the cypres, although it has had some issues, has an extraordinary saftey record over it's entire existance. Fact: All AAD's will have failures, and all AAD's work most of the time. That said, they are NOT equal... FXC's and Sentinals also worked most of the time, but noone recommends buying them. both are cheaper and last longer than a cypres. Vigil and Argus are probably both good products. In 10 years, they will both probably be better than they are today. In fact, either has the potential to surpass the Cypres in quality. In 2 years, my cypres will expire, and I won't be comfortable enough with the time span to change brands. In 14 years, my future cypres 2 will expire, and I will re-evaluate my decision. In the meantime, I will let others do my test-jumping. I thank all current Vigil and Argus owners for doing that... you are taking on a higher risk today to ensure that tomorrow's AAD's will be superior. All us conservative Airtec die-hards like myself owe you. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I'm a die-hard cypres fan because: 1) they've been out forever 2) they've been proven to work 3) the factory maintains them As a mechanical engineer working in an electrical component division of a major aviation company, I call bullshit on anyone who says they have a product that lasts 20 years 100% of the time with zero field data. I furthermore call bullshit on anyone who says "oh, well if it breaks it just won't turn on". I guarantee there was something they didn't think of. Cypres wasn't sucessful, and the vigil has already had several issues... the difference is that Cypresses are returned regularly, so they get lots of field data and quietly fix problems we don't even know about, before they kill someone. The vigil does not have this benefit. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I've done worse, when I had 58 jumps I got under a stiletto 120 (W/L about 1.2)... I don't recommend repeating my decision, although I did not get hurt. If you're careful, and nothing goes horribly wrong, you will in all likleyhood be fine, but consider asking yourself the following question: "do I think I could get away with this 1000 times in a row, without getting hurt?" In 1000 jumps, chances are you'll have to land it downwind between the electric fence and the pitbull farm, and the odds are the same that it would happen on the 1st shot as the 1000th. It sounds like you're doing the right things to get yourself educated and experienced... my recommendation would be to stick with the larger canopy for awhile yet... how long is really your decision. More importantly, I recommend sticking with a specific canopy, or at least model and size, for awhile... it's almost impossible to learn basic canopy skills like flat-turns, braked flight, risers, even the flare, if you're switching back and forth every few jumps. The pilot and triathalon are both good canopies, but they are also very different, and each jump nets you only a few minutes at most to learn. Imagine trying to learn to drive a 5-speed, but only being allowed to drive it up and down the block once and then being given a different car. It'd be pretty tough to find that magic point where you don't stall, and it would be that much worse when you stall out turning left in a busy intersection. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I am a rigger. Easier to learn mains... irrelevent to riggers, who ought to be able to find the center Good idea to be solid color and a standard solid color at that (white, yellow, blue). Reason is that people will notice the reserve and go looking for your main and freebag. not really... however, an idea I got from another rigger was to buy a reserve with thread a different color from the fabric... easier to inspect!

The numbers say yes, my personal choice is no. However, if you change the poll to include skyhook, then I say yes. I'm getting my vector retrofitted. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

No, I stepped onto an existing team that needed a new fourth. No... they had been eyeing me as a possible teammate, but didn't think I would be available. When I approached them, they were happy to have me. 130ish. 450 by the time I got on my current team (3rd team) Current team has been together for 2 years, looking to do a 3rd, although the lineup has changed. yes, but for the best. Actually, my team really started in 2002, and only one member is still there. In '02, they never really got much in. In 03 they got a solid lineup and improved a lot (8-point A team by the end). In 04 they struggled to get a committed 4th, and didn't improve. In 05 I joined, and we became a 9-10 point AA team. In 06, we got more serious, and replaced a weaker member with a very strong, experienced jumper, and took 6th at nationals in intermediate (11.6 avg). For 07, one member is moving, and we believe we have an excellent replacement. Building a solid team is very challenging, especially if you're not at perris/eloy/deland. It takes a lot of time, money, patience, and energy, but it's worth all of it when it goes well! "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Obviously you are quite correct. I am reminded of a pilot mantra that all those who think they're better than everyone else ought to remember, but inevitably won't: "A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid situations which require his superior skill" "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I have seen rules enforced twice: once at rantoul, they had an arrow that pointed in the landing direction. The other was at Eloy... they have one landing area for north-south, and another for east-west, and you have to land parallel, not corner to corner. I've seen the S&TA get on people for it, and I was once pulled aside by an airspeed member and politely reminded of the policy. They also said to use a left-hand pattern if the landing area is to your left, and a right-hand if it's to the right, so you never cross over the centerline. Eloy's was the best system I've seen. Outside of that, I've never seen anything but a free-for-all. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."