UDSkyJunkie

I think that's a bit strong, if by "get hurt" you mean something requiring a hospital visit and requiring crutches/cast/screws/brace/ect. In 1000 jumps and 8 years, the worst I've experienced is scrapes and bruises from hitting the door on exit, and some pain from a bad landing resulting from a 1/2 collapsed canopy at 30 feet (excellent PLF skills prevented a much worse outcome). Have I had some close calls? Yes. Could I get hurt this weekend? Yes. Is it guaranteed? No... like anything else, my likleyhood of getting hurt increases with my jump frequency, and is managed by remaining current, choosing appropriate canopies, and generally avoiding actions that tend to get people hurt. But to answer the original question: I've never seen a season go by without a few broken bones, and I probably never will. And yes, student jumps are among the more risky, since skill levels and experience are low. But it's not really any different from any other sport... a new skiier, skateboarder, BMX racer, motorcylist, rock climber, or skydiver must accept that injuries happen. Would I say it's "common" for students to be hurt? No. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Only you can decide if the risk/reward profile is worth it. As for odds, all I can say is things tend to come in groups, and by mostly random chance. I've got over 1000 jumps and one reserve ride, and that one was due to faulty gear (still my fault for jumping it). On the other hand, I dated a girl who had a reserve ride on jump 17, tension knots that she should have cut away on jump 25, and another reserve ride somewhere around 300 jumps. I was on a team with a guy who hadn't had a sport canopy malfunction in 20 years, and then he had 3 in one season. I remember we had a guy who had a reserve ride on his 1st tandem, and still came back. He had another one on his 3rd tandem, and quit the sport... too bad, because he just plain got shitty luck. it'll balance in the end... but if you're handling this stuff at 20 jumps, I'm guessing you'll be fine. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I'm a rigger, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if someone were to go to another rigger. Then again, rigging isn't my primary income. But really... rigging is a service and a buisiness like anything else. Would you feel disloyal if you went to a different auto mechanic, hair dresser, or grocery store than your usual? I see no difference. If the rigger is hurt or angry, my opinion of them would be reduced. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I'm with those who say you shouldn't have to pay nearly that much. I've been jumping 8 years and have owned 3 mains, 2 containers, 2 reserves, and an AAD, and STILL haven't racked up a $5,500 tab! First rig was a Vector III (zero jumps) PD 9-Cell 170, Micro-raven 150 (1 jump), and Cypres with 9 years left at a cost of $2,650. My sister put her first rig together for about $1,500! Javelin and Spectre 150 with ~400 jumps, bought my old Micro-raven, plus someone gave her a cypres with 4 years left. buying gear is like buying computers... you can get the latest thing, decked out with options for $5,000+, or you can get last year's model for less than half that. Get the fancy custom stuff later, when you really know what you want and need, and get it one peice at a time... your wallet will thank you. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

That would indeed be very cool. In order for that to work, the DZO's would have to start talking early in the season to coordinate, and profits would have to be shared in some manner. Aircraft-wise, if SGC brought their otter, Start brought their caravan, ect, and maybe a casa or skyvan was brought in, you could create a pretty awesome mega-boogie without having to lease a ton of aircraft for the weekend (or, perhaps week... something that large would be better done as a week-long boogie I think). If it was coordinated with the OSU skydiving class (we had almost *200* tandems and AFF students over 2 weekends in mayish this year), it'd be even better and help bring in new blood. Bring in Fastrax guys to do some organizing, and some gear dealers to have demos and such, and you really could have a boogie to rival the WFFC, or at least summerfest. Perhaps it should be suggested to Jamie, and her, Jim, Kip, and whatever other DZO's could start thinking about logistics over winter. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

both guys above nailed it... vertical is slower (for some us... for the less skilled it's often FASTER), but horizontal speed makes total speed faster. Plus instead of rotating 90 degrees, you rotate almost 180. Trust me, dumping in a track hurts with the wrong canopy. Although I did that several times on my old PD-170 9-cell and it never mattered, hence the learning experience on the Sabre. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Dude... you're thinking waaay to hard. I'm an aerospace engineer and I didn't follow all that. you are correct that the front riser connects to A and B lines on 4 1/2 cells aspect ratio is for glide. higher aspect ratio wings have less drag and more lift. But parachutes don't really have wildly different aspect ratio's anyway. Typical 9-cell square main (Sabre or PD 9-cell) has an AR of 2.5. The katana's and velocities of the world are more like 2.7. 7-cells are lower, like 2.1. AR by itself probably doesn't have much effect on riser pressure. sport canopies respond faster because they are smaller, more heavily loaded, and lower drag. Same reason an F-16 responds more quickly than a 747. when you let up on the brakes, your glide flattens and speed slows. Result is less air pressure in your canopy. Less pressure = easier to deform (think of a nearly flat vs. very tight air mattress. Centrifugal forces and such come into play, but not that much, 'cause you aren't spinning super fast like a toggle spiral. Your airspeed increases, and the pressure increases, so it's harder to deform. This is why even in double-front risers it gets harder to hold them down once your speed picks up, even though you aren't turning. Even if you're super-strong, it might not matter... on my old Sabre 135 I could make my harness go slack on double-fronts... I didn't weigh enough to deform it any more. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Yeah, it's basically holding a heading and not going forward or backward. I agree it's a poor choice of words. I guess it would make more sense in the context of wind tunnels. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

So since you're a guy.... Are you aspiring to be the Kwisatz Haderach? "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

About five minutes. Although, I had a teammate who hadn't ever been pied, and we got him after he had 3,000+ jumps. We pied our DZO after he'd done over 10,000 jumps and been jumping for 40+ years, because he'd never been pied. Just make a "idle" comment... someone will get you eventually. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

DZO's pressuring people to stay is inappropriate. Threats are downright out of line. There are three 3 day weekends during the season, Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor Day. Who decides which DZ gets which weekend? Let's say you magically got an agreement... say SGC gets memorial day, SS gets the 4th, and SWC gets Labor Day. What happens if the weather goes to crap on Memorial day? Does SGC just say "oh, well" and not have any boogies that year? SS' "boogie" had the following: - jump prices at $19 - exactly 1 free keg - 1 free dinner we didn't find out about until it arrived - a raffle we didn't know about until the day it happened - a free band that was really one of our jumpers bands that he plays drums for - the same 13-slot plane we have every day - the same organizers we have every weekend Believe me, if I wanted to go to a boogie and party it up, I'd have gone to Richmond! We didn't have a fire, and mostly everyone went home or to the campground by 11:00. I do believe the Richmond boogie will continue, and I actually hope it's attendance increases. Even though I didn't intend to go, I was disappointed that Rantoul was cancelled this year... it's truly a loss to the sport. But I think we all need to remember that great boogies are never "made"... they just happen. Quincy is a classic example: the first time around, i don't think anyone expected it to be as big as it was, with 5,000 people showing up. It was the Woodstock of skydiving, and it will never happen again on purpose. From there it got smaller and smaller, and eventually ended pitifully. Richmond isn't all that different... it was huge, and it's been slowly getting smaller. Maybe it'll come back and maybe not, but I can tell you this: If SWC wants the Richmond boogie to be what it once was, they'll have to change something. Maybe it means changing the weekend, maybe it means making it a week-long mega-event, maybe it means bringing in exotic aircraft, maybe it means skygod organizers, or record attempts, or something really unconventional like hooking up with a college (or several) and having 500 tandem/AFF/static line students (and lots of non-40+ year-old co-eds) to get the youth energized. I don't know the solution. But hoping people will come back because of tradition or because they had a great time and got laid by the hottest chick on the DZ at the richmond boogie 10 years ago isn't going to work. And expecting other DZ's, local or not, to back off isn't going to work either. To restore the glory, it has to be a truly great event. One that everyone wants to go to because somehow they KNOW it's going to be awesome. If you build it, they will come. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

The Richmond boogie is a jewel, along with the other big boogies over the years... Lost Prarie, Quincy, the Turkey Meet... there's more, but most of them pre-date me anyway. Unfortunately, the buisiness side must be recognized. If the SGC, SDG, Start, and other DZO's made the decision not to hold their own events, then they don't make any money during their last big opportunity of the summer. That's a big sacrifice, and one that most DZO's can't afford to make, especially with recent years being as lean as they have been. The other thing is it's true that not everyone wants to go to a big boogie. In 2005, I went to Rantoul and had a great time. I also went to the Eloy Christmas boogie and had fun. But I decided I probably wouldn't go to either a 2nd time. It's just not my scene... I don't really care about big-ways and big parties, so the option of staying at Start and organizing was more appealing to me. We're all different. Hey man, if you're around when I'm organizing, I'll bring you in. Although it's unlikley I'll be organizing much of anything next year since I'm moving to the desert, where I'll just be another young punk skydiver again. Hopefully I can get you in on some dives if you're down in Eloy next year though. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I prefer: "A baby seal walks into a club." best joke ever! "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

...and triathalons... your results may vary. In 10 years of packing and about 10,000 packjobs, I found 3 canopies the most troublesome to pack to open softly: Sharpchuter, Sabre1, Triathalon, in that order. The Sabre's and Tri's I got under control, the Sharpchuter's I never did no matter how hard I tried. I owned a Sabre1 for 500 jumps and it slammed me maybe 5 times... twice I dumped in a track, my mistake. It frequently opened "briskly" (meaning hard but not painful). I currently have 400 jumps on a Sabre2, and have had zero slammers, and only a handful that I would call "brisk". Then again, I know someone who got severe whiplash from a Sabre2 opening, and another who broke a riser. I know one or two people who swear their Spectre's slam them every jump. Everyone else who owns them says it's like falling into pillows. I also know someone who has had lots of hard openings, resulting in line and/or fabric damage to all of the following canopies: Stiletto, Monarch, Crossfire1 (twice), Sabre2, Diablo (4 times). Canopies open hard. Shit happens. Learn to pack well, don't dump in a track, and don't worry about it. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

For the record, that is one of the first things you've said on this thread I agree with. While AFF has it's advantages in terms of rate of skills learning, static line/IAD are much more cost effective per jump, and offering it as an option opens skydiving up to a larger audience. I was discussing this exact issue just this week with Kip, and you might be surprised to learn that he also agrees that static line/IAD has it's place. In fact, he stated that he is considering offering IAD at Start in the future, both as a way to bring in more jumpers, and as a way to get experienced jumpers involved more quickly, since an IAD instructor rating is much easier to achieve than AFF and can be done after only one or two hundred jumps. I don't think any decisions have been made, so don't quote this as gospel. Before you go off and attack people, you really should learn where they stand... might be surprised. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Hey now... I kinda liked the idea of being called a "super-skygod organizer"! I guess I better not let it go to my head, or I won't be able to fit it through the door. On an unrelated note, as for our regional director... he's elected by uspa members. If you don't like him, don't vote for him. He'll get my vote, because I see him busting his ass every day out there for us, as a director, as a DZ manager, as an instructor, and as an examiner, and doing it with a smile. He's an excellent teacher, and it's good to have someone on the board with some balls. Sure, he has some ideas I don't agree with, but who doesn't? Hell, I have some ideas I probably won't agree with in another year. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

That's true... so Chris, why are you working so hard at doing exactly that? Grow up, and move on. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

And now, after being given shit for 4 or 5 posts, here's a useful answer: go to http://www.uspa.org/about/page2/relative_safety.htm it's not detailed but it's a start. If you scour the net enough you might be able to find total number of US jumps for years other than 2005. If you contact USPA directly, they may be happy to help. All above are quite right that looking for worldwide numbers is a futile task, although some other countries may have records if you ask. To all who would give this guy shit: yes, statistics can be (and regularly are) misinterpereted, deliberately skewed, and made to "prove" opposing points. However, they are compiled for a reason, and people should be pointed in the right direction so they can learn and form their own opinions. New jumpers/students/media types being told to fuck off when they ask for reasonable information hardley gives the sport a good image. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

That's a really good point too. If you're packing/working, you're around a lot and you meet a lot of people. That does two things... first, it makes you want to come back more because you're making friends, and second, people will know you're looking for gear, and they'll be on the lookout. When I was packing and looking for gear, someone went to the WFFC and bought a Vector III with zero jumps for $650. They were going to sell it for $800, but sold it to me for what they paid. When my younger sister started jumping, the same guy GAVE her an 8-year-old cypres that needed the 8-year check. She also bought a Spectre 150 with like 300 jumps and a PDR-160 with zero jumps for $1300 total, and the guy who sold it to her knew her and knew she was short on cash, so he let her give a down payment of $500, and pay the rest later. Bottom line: try to be at the DZ as much as possible! "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

That sounds like every weekend in 2006! j/k, but seriously, kudo's for that one... I laughed hysterically! We "RW cyborgs" know how to have a good time. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I've heard of a lot of different cypres "misfires", all of which have resulted in the conclusion that the cypres operated according to design. This is a new one on me! I'm curious, when did these occur? Was it in the early cypres days, or more recent? Do you have any knowledge of Airtec working a solution to that problem? Given that the cypres has an altitude below which it does not fire (300 ft?) and given that I believe it has to think you've been falling for some amount of time (1 or 2 seconds?) prior to hitting 750 ft or it will not fire, a slammed car door seems like too brief of an event to trigger it. Especially since it would fool the pressure sensor into thinking it was BELOW 0' AGL. As a rigger, I'm very interested in any details you can provide. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

I'm from the same DZ... there were advantages and disadvantages to the tandem progression. When I learned, I thought it was the better way, however looking back (older and wiser, of course) I now believe tandem progression was overall a negative. For background, our progression was 4 tandems (carnival ride, altitude and pull, turns, forward/backward movement), then a shorter version of the AFF program. Reasons I am now against it: - We had a LOT of students who were so used to holding on the ripcord that they would hold onto the pilot chute on their 1st harness-hold dive - The presence of the tandemaster would give students a false sense of stability/capability. i.e., a HUGE input on a turn would have a sluggish response. Then the same person would do the same thing on an "AFF" jump and wonder why they got into an uncontrolled spin. Even more basic things like being stable at all... how would you feel if you did 4 tandems "perfectly" and then suddenly you're on your own and you're potato-chipping and can't hold a heading. - The lack of extensive instruction meant people wouldn't be around all day and talking to people... after 2 or 3 times of coming out, jumping within an hour, and leaving almost immediately, people would get bored and quit. - For the same reason, too much of a "carnival ride" feel, and I think it led the more independant people to become disinterested. - Ground classes were rare enough that they weren't held regularly... inconvenient to schedule, and typically you would be the only one in the class... that means noone to go through it with you, adding to the isolation. - Good tandem masters for 1st jumps are not necessarily good instructors for jumps 2 - 4. - Relative rarity of AFF jumps vs. tandems led to the good AFF instructors moving on and/or becoming uncurrent. Quality of instruction suffered. Don't get me wrong, tandem is a good thing and has it's place. Personally, I think tandem should be a 1-off thing. If you come back for a 2nd jump it should be strait into AFF. Also, all students should be given the option of tandem or AFF for their first jump, and encouraged to start with AFF if they're interested in pursuing more than just a carnival ride. For smaller DZ's that might not have a lot of instructors, I would encourage greater use of *gasp* static line/IAD! You get a lot of the education/interaction/commitment benefits of AFF, but larger groups are easier to handle. Plus, for students that aren't investment bankers, jumps are maybe $60 instead of $200 - $300... so doing 2 or 3 every week (or at least every other week) isn't financially impossible. The success of the program is based on retention of people, and what retains people is getting them out there all day, making them feel like they've accomplished something, and having them hang out around the fire when they're done. They meet people, make friends, and want to come back. Tandem does not lend itself to that atmosphere. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

i can A- jump every 60 days to stay current. with rental and jumps it's about $150. if i keep doing this i'll have my own gear in about 10 months. or B- take a hiatus from jumping. save the money i would have spent on jumping and rentals. i which case i'd have my own gear in about 6 months. If it's an option (should be at most DZ's) I'd say do what I did... learn to pack, and start earning some money at the DZ. At first it'll suck, because you'll be frustrated and sweating and you'll make like 20 bucks in a day, but it'll get better and before you know it you'll be raking in $100 in a day, and suddenly buying gear sooner AND jumping more frequently becomes an option. This may allow you to average more than 15 a month once you've got gear too... my best year in college I made almost 150 jumps, but skydiving was a net gain in income due to packing! "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

For the record, the BSR's do NOT require you to have a coach rating to jump with a pre-A-license student. Check Section 2-1, E-6: "Student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by either a USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA instructor OR; USPA D license holders provided there is a minimum of one D-licence holder to one student with a maximum of a 4-way." In my opinion, this is a good common sense recommendation, and it certainly allows you to take up post-AFF students and be fully compliant with the BSR's. That point may or may not sway the DZ policy, but I thought you should know. Also for the record, properly done, I think the coach course is a good thing. I got my rating this year, an I learned a lot about how to teach, what to teach, and how to debreif to maximize the student's potential... like you, I have plenty of flying skills and experience, but I am glad I took the course because it has made me a better teacher. I have seen others with the rating who have no buisiness taking up students (although i could say a lot worse about some "AFF instructors" out there...) That will always be a problem. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

Hey man... shrug it off, there will always be a**holes. A have a friend with 700ish jumps who jumps a spectre 210 @ 1.2ish, and I'll tease him a little and I've been known to call his canopy a circus tent, but that's always with a smile; when I'm being serious, I tell him it's a great canopy choice because he loves it, he's proficient with it, and has no interest in going fast. It wasn't that long ago (10 years or so) that 150's were considered tiny and PD wouldn't sell you a stiletto if you didn't have 500 jumps. In 1995 My dad (who had 3500 jumps at the time) bought a stiletto 150 after owning a cruiselite (220 sqft F-111 7-cell) and several people called him 10 kinds of an idiot for it. Keep the tuna boat if you like it... how many other people can go fishing with their canopy? Eventually one of those little guys will die under a Widowmaker 37, and a lot of people will stop giving you crap. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."