Baksteen

You're both right of course.. It's just that this is a very touchy subject for me, participating a knee jerk reaction of my very own. I'm simply afraid of perfectly capable students being turned away because of ignorance and because it's the easiest thing to do. Skydiving is about passion, not about what Joe Sixpack would call 'common sense'. But I do concede that I might be biased in favour of a hypothetical student who might not be suitable - after all, I cannot be objective on this subject. While stress is indeed the most commonly known and most commonly acknowledged trigger for seizures, it is also widely accepted that many epilepsy patients are susceptible to stress. Triggers can vary per patient from stress to flashing lights or smells or humidity, or even (in my case) being extremely sleepy. When judging a prospective student's fitness for skydiving, the individual case should be carefully evaluated. -Which triggers is the student sensitive to? -Is he taking meds? -Which, if any side effects do these meds have on the students' performance? -How long has he been seizure free? -Was that with or without meds? -Did he change his dosage recently? - Is he seeing a neurologist and why/why not? - What does his doctor say? As to the driving question: it all depends on the limitations which are (rather arbitrarily in some cases) set on certain activities. If you look at it in a black/white way, I'll never be allowed to scuba dive, simply because they demand the student be seizure free without meds for X number of years - and I take meds. But I've been taking a low dosage of meds (depakin) for fourteen years now and have been seizure free for the same period of time. So what is the additional value of being seizure free without meds? Well, turns out they simply copied the requirements from those you have to meet for driving a lorry. In skydiving though, the boundaries are set differently. I won’t quote them at you, because it will get lost in translation. But our regulations broadly speaking state that medical conditions must be absent or under control, and that any meds you take mustn’t influence your performance. Hence, the portion of the article I have issues with is the following: Where does the word ‘questionable’ come from? I’m sure that the doctor made an informed descision based on the facts known to him. As far as I can tell the student was upfront about his condition towards the doctor. While it’s true that many doctors would ban a epilepsy patient from skydiving without a second (or first) thought, it is my belief that these doctors fall into the ‘skydiving is reckless, dangerous and deadly’-category. I would like to see the last statement in this paragraph to be a little more balanced. For obvious reasons simply implies: he’s got epilepsy and shouldn’t jump. Take out the ‘for obvious reasons’ and the sentence focuses more on the occurrence of the incident than on the epilepsy in general. Whetehr ‘individual’ is the correct word here, I l;eave to the native speakers. Point is, stress does not simply play a role in many cases of epilepsy in general, except for people who are susceptible to stress as a trigger for their epilepsy. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

The article is factually inaccurate and full of whuffo statements. Could you take it down please, or at least make sure the info in it is actually correct? Epilepsy is way more complex than 'something to do with stress'. Besides, while it is indeed true that 'many doctors' believe epilepsy patients shouldn't jump 'for obvious reasons' I wouldn't be surprised if those are the same doctors who are against skydiving in general. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Not loaded at all, really. I'd rather jump with the first person. They may be only starting out camera, but they have spent 100 extra jumps building up skills they can use when stuff goes sideways. In your line of reasoning the second person strapped on a camera with merely 100 jumps under their belt. By that lline of reasoning you might as well give a camera to someone with 50 or twenty jumps - or even before their first AFF/SL jump - "because they don't know any better than jumping with camera, they will not be distracted by it". "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Rice. When I was a little kid my dad (who is a decent enough cook by the way) made me some rice-porridge, but apparantly he made some mistake. I didn't eat *any* dish containing any form of rice for well over a decade.

J=0... Crap, never mind that then. If you gonna give me the bowling speech, you might just come out and say it. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Well, there are plenty of other dead horses being beaten with opened cans of worms: AADs, helmets, fast downsizing, low time jumpers with camera's, snag hazards, RSL/skyhook usage just to name a few. The list goes on and on. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Skydiving Club Flanders used to own a Pilatus Porter which was nicknamed "Geronimo". http://www.pc-6.com/history/882.htm "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Granted. but that, as you yourself indicate, requires a DZ which is willing to have their precious turbine plane burning fuel while stuff is sorted out.

Yes, seat belts are a good idea, and yes, they are a lot of hassle. The most common system (at least, that I personally have seen) is this kind of 'rsl-like' system; a Pull release with a single, non-elastic lanyard. They are hell to clip on to a rig without hip rings, especially with other people already piling on top of you while you still are trying to extricate your seat belt from under the foot/legg/ass of the person sitting behind you. So yes, after a few tries you kinda stop bothering. This is especially true after finding out a few times in a row that you cannot even GET to the damn thing in the first place as some joker in the front has clipped on the wrong belt. Besides, the *wearing* (as opposed to the *presence*) of seat belts isn't mandatory at many places I've visited. The best system I have seen so far is the one in the skydive SDC-airplanes. They are some kind of modified commercial airliner system; easy to clip on, easy to adjust, easy to stow and a pleasure to wear. My point is, if all jump planes were fitted with a decent, user friendly seat belt system I reckon many jumpers would be a lot more inclined to wear them - mandatory or not. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

On another note, that ride is apparently operated by a genderlesss entity. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Tell that to Shayna. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Naw, they're allright. Used to be a C-licence, but they relaxed it to B-licence now, but you need written permission from an instructor in your logbook. You also need 200 FS-jumps for freefall. Or, 10 CReW jumps (outside only; 100 CReW jumps for inside CReW). "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

I assure you, it most definitely is you. Why not doing something constructive and perhaps join one of the overseeing committees? Then you can help MAKE the rules instead of just whining about them. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Sounds to me you just asked and got dispensation for "technically jumping a canopy size not yet allowed by Dutch rules for your experience ". It's hard to draft rules which can take into account every individual jumper and still be safe, enforcable and readable. The talented people and the very light people seem held back at first glance. But that's where the dispensations come in. Any jumper can apply to the KNVvL with a sound motivation of why they want to jump a smaller wing. If their request has merit, they'll get such dispensation. This may sound harsh, but the tone I read in your post is something I hear more and more often, also on the DZs and I'm fed up with it. Let me ask a rhetorical question: What's the obsession with WL, especially for non-swoopers? No need to act all gung ho and tough-attitude about how restrictive those bothersome dutch rules are. There is room for interpretation, and you know it. Or, being a lighter and current and talented jumper, you should know it. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

I couldn't be bothered to read this entire thread as I have a 'significant' dislike against statistics in skydiving. So my apologies if my point has already be made: It just isn't that easy. The risk depends not just on the number of jumps, but also on a lot of other factors. Examples: The weather conditions, the currency of the jumper, the type of canopy, the time in the sport, wingloading, experience in the type of jump, jumper personality, knowledge of local hazards, the complexity of the jump, the number of others involved, fatigue, etc. For instance, a jumper has 2000 jumps. The last 250 are spread out over five years and are all small way CReW on a Lightning 160. Now they are going for their first WS jump and they have to travel to a DZ they have not visited before in oreder to get the necessary coaching. A buddy loans them a Katana 126, packed in a rig on which the handles are located just this much higher than the CReW dog is used to. It's a swooping rig, so there is no RSL or AAD. The winds are high and the spot is long and off heading. The jump takes place over hilly terrain with small outs. This is entirely fictional and hopefully quite far-fetched, but I've heard about shit that's way more stupid than anything I could come up with. On the other hand a 100-jump wonder on student gear makes a jump at their home DZ, which boasts a huge landing area. It's going to be a two-way coaching jump with outside video. Who is taking the bigger risk? And how are you going to factor in all the possible variables in these precious statistics? Skydiving is what it is; Awesome, but there is risk involved. All you can do is use your common sense and try to mitigate part of that risk as best you can. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

It's Goaulds. And recent revelations suggest that they are not limited to Egyption Mythology but that instead captain picard used to star on Family Guy before Riker got an Island named after him from which Dufresne didn't escape but it was similar. in conclusion the cryptoreferences remind me slyly, may he rest in peace, though you could google that and find poetry. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

#1-42 on a Manta 288 #43-53 on a Falcon 215 #54-97 on a Navigator 240 #98-101 on a Sabre1 210 #102-129 on a Sabre1 190 #130-148 on a spectre 190 #149-453 on a Storm 190 After that it gets a little confusing because I switch canopies a lot. I still jump the Storm when not doing CReW and have 360 jumps on it. Between #454-702 I made 98 jumps on a Lightning 160 "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

You left out the american mom and her daughter Sue. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

At my DZ, if a student fails the hanging harness test we hand them to a different instructor because sometimes it's just that the student and instructor do not 'connect', so to speak. Other times the stress and fatigue of the FJC combined with exam fear are too much for the student. The student may choose to sleep on it, do the second HH test immediately or walk away entirely. It's up to them. If they also fail the second HH-test, I guess we'd be forced to send them away, but I've never been in that situation. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Well, not all people on here are dicks.

That would seem to go for red shirts in general "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

In the Netherlands, aspiring instructors must have at least one reserve, be it pre-planned or a 'real one'. If they do a pre-planned reserve, they are a) experienced jumpers b) well prepared c) bringing a secondary reserve canopy with them, just in case they screw up. From the post you quoted it looks like the student knowingly cutaway a perfectly good canopy, just for shits and giggles. That is not a good idea since it adds unnecessary risk to the jump. Your reserve is meant to save your life, it's not a toy (unlike your main canopy). Less importantly, the person stands the chance of losing their main canopy and some other pieces of equipment when they float down to the ground after the cutaway. Lastly, it'll cost you quite some money to have it repacked by a specially trained and certified individual, called a rigger. A better option would have been to contact a gear dealer or the manufacturer of the reserve canopy and see if the jumper could demo a similar reserve canopy. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Prison time coming up? LOL! naw dude! There's a film project i am involved in. But because of a nondisclosure agreement i have on a contract i cannot say which film i am working on, location, plot details, etc. I've worked on recent successful movie adaptations and the current project i'm on is part of a franchise (can't disclose which one though) Porn. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Mozart "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Boobies "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom