skygypsie

A lot of guys (myself included) had the same outlook in Afghanistan. Then my helmet and body armor saved my life. Sure, I was injured in non-protected areas, but without the armor, I'd be dead. The thought process is flawed. 1st of all, thank you so much for you service ! I am sorry for any injury you may have & thankful a helmet & body armor saved your life. My thought process may be flawed, but it is MY thought, my body, my life. I should have that right to make a decision of my own, regardless of risk of loss of life or limb, without laws governing, mandating or modifying my rights to do so. Any activity / sport can cause serious head- body injury (e.g. heck a baby rolling off a bed or changing table, toddler learning to walk, bicycle riding, teeter totters, merry go rounds, skate boarding, roller blading, skating, push scooters, sledding, skiing, boating, football, hockey, wrestling, mc riding, some marriages & domestic relationships......... skydiving) Do we allow 'them' mandate to start making decisions in all our lives' activities ? Should all from the time of birth show proof of financial responsibility before engaging in any activity that could result in injury ? Isn't that what the OCA is for ? Again, so thankful to you & all troops who have & are currently serving for all of us so, we are able to maintain our rights of independence. ~Blessings & BlueSkies ~

What a surprise - the genius with the loud pipes (saves lifes!) also thinks that helmets kill. And the thread only got worse from there - I'm out of here. ...& that's what you took from an incident I pointed out ? Do helmets protect & save in the majority of mc crashes, of course they do, but like any safety measures are not a guarantee. I chose to ride without one. It is a PERSONAL decision & would like to keep the option, mine. I am a defensive rider. I've been riding long enough (20 yrs) to know what's out there. In 1 season alone, I've put on 12,000. I wear full leathers on open road rides for protection & obviously weather, but funny how riders; specifically non mc club Harley riders, are chastised for trying to look bad ass when we do. I pay my own insurance premiums & medical bills. (I also have very good life insurance) I am also a Nurse, when I'm not packing parachutes. If I go down bad enough to suffer severe head injuries, most likely other body parts will be mash, as well. I don't want to have my skull reconstructed, nor plugged in. That too, is my choice. That's what I thought this thread was about ! Re: straight pipes, damn straight... I'm more likely to be heard, over the too frequent declarations after a mv collides into a mc... "but officer, I didn't see it ..." * I don't draw judgment, conclusion on one's thoughts, attempt to intimidate, name call anyone whose thoughts & opinions may not be of mine, nor expect anyone to think like I do !

Yep...been to Tomahawk Rally & most Wisconsin State rallies for many years & "rode" to Sturgis. I've been a H.O.G. & Ladies of Harley member for almost 20 years, having gone to most rallies in the state for quite a few years. I'm originally from southern WI., now not far from Superior. The Sportster was my 1st bike..a Christmas gift. Actually my Dad died that night, so had it painted as a tribute to him ( rose with thorns-heart w/ black tear drop, feathers for his side of our family's Native American heritage), but that Springer...that is absolutely my favorite. It's highway riding, especially on windier days, & the way it hugs curves...feels more comfortable Craddock...1st year I went was a snow storm, miserable 4 hour ride home, but returned again & again

75% of All Motorcycle Fatalities: "the failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents" Most states require mandatory MOTORISTS carry proof of financial responsibility (LIABILITY). If a motorist is liable for mc rider accident resulting in serious injury / fatality, THEY are financially responsible... insurance companies pay out. My opinion... this is just another example of insurance industry backing ! * 20 year HD MC owner-rider & do not wear a helmet... my choice & would like to keep it that way. If I'm going down bad enough to have severe head injuries, the rest of me is likely to be mashed, as well. Personally, helmets inhibit my needed defense driving senses (e.g. peripheral vision, hearing-though I ride with straight pipes...) Have you ever seen a rider go down with a helmet on, lose consciousness & strangulate because there was not the ability to remove the helmet, due to other injuries...who otherwise may have lived ? I have !

I just read this article, & here is a copy/paste a couple points: -------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.Throughout the Instinctive Drowning Response, drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment. 5.From beginning to end of the Instinctive Drowning Response people’s bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry this is somewhat a bit off thread, but given #4-#5, I am hoping to get a better understanding of a recent USPA decision made regarding their "investigation" into a very good friend's skydive related drowning last summer. He died in a tandem jump incident resulting in both TI & student water landing. He was the TI on the tandem jump, with close to 9000 skydives & a certified scuba diver. Though witness accounts; the witness being the student who made it to shore, stated once he was released from the harness, he witnessed "Paul" also swimming along side him, the 100' to shore. The student stated he had to stop about 10' from shore, standing up on the bottom, to catch his breath. It was then he noticed he could no longer see "Paul". The USPA determined because "Paul" was swimming, the skydive landing was considered complete upon entering the water. They concluded once he started to swim, the skydive was over. The official decision " he drowned after the skydive was completed". Therefore, refused to pay "Paul's" widow the insurance benefits he had been paying for. His "mainstream" life insurance is refusing to pay, concluding he died on a skydive... a non-coverable incident, therefore his policy through USPA. None of it made sense, knowing "Paul's" abilities, but this is not consistent with a drowning victim in #4 & #5, above. Facts: The lake tide (wake) was coming in, in the direction they would swim to shore. Though the main was floating downstream with the under current... thinking he would have obviously chopped shortly before, or upon entering the water, thinking his shoes as well & releasing harness' "Paul's" body was ultimately found 300' from shore, on the opposite side of the lake, as were the harnesses & shoes, though scattered from each other. Input- feedback ???? * student spoke nor understand very little English obviously there were not floatation devices

Congratulations "Grand"skymama ! Your grandson is perfect !!! If not already, you will soon find being a Grandma the most fulfilling role you will ever have. If we feel we had regrets as a parent with our kid(s), this is the chance we get to redo with our grandkids !!!

Many times...sometimes you have to sacrifice your comfort for your partner's occupation. I wouldn't have seen & lived in some of the most beautiful places, experienced amazing things I otherwise wouldn't have, nor have met some of the greatest people out there ! I have even lived in a camper on a dz, a couple seasons ... having been some of my best times of my life

Not every girl can land a superstar. Have you ever met his wife ? They are both lucky, both are 'super' stars in their own right

Okay, I'm going to try again. Nothing prevents a supervising rigger from doing training and/or establishing a credential system for the packers he or she supervises. The supervising rigger is responsible for work of the packers he or she supervises. Packers cannot do a good or bad job. Only the supervising rigger can do a good or bad job. It is the supervising rigger's pack job. If you are saying supervising riggers should do a better job at supervising, well, ok. You haven't proposed anything that will help. If you are saying packers should do a better job, well, ok. The person to motivate them is the supervising rigger. That's all in the regulation. So what exactly do you want to change? Mark You're right, nothing prevents it...so why does it happen far too often ? So, precisely & simply put... EVERYBODY do their damn jobs, correctly. If this requires mandated packer ratings, so be it. Riggers & Packers, alike...I have experienced too many in both capacities leaving a lot to be desired, lately...slacking, lacking & shrugged off by both. Per the dz, instructors, costs & integrity of gear, students & safety...no less should be expected, nor performed. This sport & business mandates & requires it, for obvious reasons !!!

...reality...not just practical procedures backed by versed "technically" ! I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you say it another way? Mark What I'm trying to say, most of us know busy operations don't sometimes lend to the availability of Riggers standing over & scrutinizing "iffy" packers. In "practicality" they usually wear many hats & just not that accessible. Though "technically" are supposed to per reqs.. On the flip side (my greatest grievance), too many packers are laxed, don't care, disgruntled or just plain don't know if they are creating a wrongful packing situation! They can't ask, if they are not in the know. Costs: TI's provide their own camera & video equipment, responsible for fees for the MED Class II, III, USPA recurrency fees, as do AFFI, pro rated. We all have to pay our USPA membership fees. Why not a Packing independent contractor ? Make it their ( dzo- packers) "reality"...typically if you have to pay & answer, you are more apt to learn the correct way & do your job well...light some follow up responsibility under some, you usually will find who is serious about what they took on ! Find, hire & keep packers who just care enough to care....that's all ! . Most dzs I've staffed with even provide the rubber bands !

Staff Rigger... "under direct supervision of Senior/ Master Rigger..." Why can't the supervising rigger do local certifying and card-pulling already? "Direct supervision" includes taking responsibility for the result, which means packers working under supervision must either (a) take direction from the supervising rigger, or (b) walk. What are you proposing that doesn't already exist? Mark ...reality...not just practical procedures backed by versed "technically" !

Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling? Mark S & TA &/ or Staff Rigger... "under direct supervision of Senior/ Master Rigger..."

good point !

Might really be starting up a whole lotta raucaus here, but I totally agree. "PACKERS" the staffing position kind of Packers, should have to qualify. (tandem, student rigs) I don't mean just take a course, pack a few & all go to go ! I'm talking about certified & deemed to require recertification. If Vector-Sigma rigs are jumped, need to test out on those. If Strong, test out on those. Endorsements required, before packing is allowed. If too many errors occur (proven to be direct cause of cutaways, incident, injury, etc), card is pulled. It wouldn't need to cost the Packer candidate a dime, other then the purchase of an 'official' card, staffing dz rigger could stamp each year.

All the more reason I'm less than comfortable with someone who's never jumped him/herself packing for others, where they've never, even once, experienced relying on a parachute themselves to avoid otherwise-certain death. I'm willing to make a small exception of, for example, kids of jumpers or DZOs, where they've packed for their parents and thus have a very personal stake in doing it right. BINGO...

Agreed, agreed, agreed No doubt there are exceptions to the young age of packers. One of the best packers I've experienced, the 12 yr old son of a DZO. Young packers of jumpers, have a clue...it's seriously instilled in them. The 'off the street' youth I was referring to...are just that... having no prior skydiving / skydiver connection, nor virtual understanding the depths of the position ! RE: 40 tandem packs/ day...those days are done. Climbing age bracket mandates it The past couple year's @ 20 < under tandems/ day...good enough for me !!! I'm going to enjoy semi retirement from here on out

Thank you !!! Any packing questions I have had or requests to modify, I do just that... check with the rigger, then WE check mfg reqs! * In most cases, the rigger I check with is my husband. He's also a TI who jumps these rigs (12 yrs: over 3500 jumps w/ TI rated '06 @ 2000 as tandems), AFFI, S/L, IAD, Coach, Pro-rated, Aviation A&P with IA... so yah, I pretty much listen to him, when it comes to anything skydiving related, anyway He's the one who initially got me into skydiving- staff packing & taught me. We own all tandem manufacturer manuals-updates on CD & written text. In the case I'm speaking of, reqs require it on some of their canopies (some Strong Sets). This was one of those canopies. The term "bridging"...not sure when/where/ who or how it came about. It's just a word describing a procedure some mfg require in packing their canopies. The procedure is something a Rigger & Packers should know if their dz jumps those rigs. A word some use describing it, doesn't matter. Another issue I had, they did have Vector / Sigma tandem canopies. Mandatory manufacturer's closing with a power tool, NOT pull up cord. These packers didn't, nor had one between each other to share. I had several, gifting each tandem packer with one...not because I'm a sweet heart, but because it's how certain rigs HAVE to be closed !!! Also a concern, their tandem packing = a combo pro, accordion type flat packed. Have no clue if it has a term...never saw it before ! They cleared the lines from the canopy to the bag. When I asked why they did it that way...response: "that's how we were taught..it saves time..." Lots of cutaways at that DZ Most tandem packers there, didn't know how to true pro-pack ! Their packers were taught how to pack by the Rigger who was unfamiliar with this procedure. I also witnessed him combine 2 stows in one rubber band, because he didn't want to change the broken rubber band out. He was not a jumper...just got his ticket for the reserve pack $ & the dz needed an on site rigger...go figure !!!! Soon thereafter, his ticket was pulled. Exact reasoning why he was called out to re-test, don't know...don't care. He had no business as a Rigger, nor in my opinion on a dz..as his concern for the safety & lives' in skydiving was just a few $ in his pocket & a bottle of booze (probably many cases, in his case) Once "bridging" was performed on the required canopies, feed back from the TI's jumping them: some insisted on continuing the procedure, some didn't care, some didn't know it existed, but those same noticed a remarkable difference in opening after the procedure ! DZ mgmt. didn't have a clue one way or another. This is what brings to my initial posts. Some dzs are hiring just any kid off the street, just to get a rig on a back. Jumping packers don't last, after they buy their own gear & only pay a few $ for a jump, they're all done on the packing floor. Afterall, no consideration, respect, lousy pay, grunt work, no air time...who wants to be a Packer ?! The days of dz bums (true die hard, dedicated, full timers who live on dzs, travel the circuit for year 'round work..live & breath skydiving), has dwindled. Replaced by kids who require even less pay, who think it's more than enough & great time to hang with cool skydivers, so their friends in school, think they are cool, too & some pretty sassy 'non skydiving' chicks who are more interested in the male to female ratio... looking to find their place on the packing floor. We "chicks dig skydivers" I've always been known to say it like "I" see it...not meant to offend anyone * FYI: @ 8000 of my 10,000 tandem packs have been Strong Sets. I'm one of those that logs my packs...keeps my pay honest...became habit !

One old fart that we both know, was really bummed to learn you had moved from the area...your slow opening mode kept his ole bones from crunching! Wow, thank you for that Twardo.

Like I said I am NOT a rigger, but when I take on the responsibility for other's best outcome, especially for pay...I like to know why & how (engineering & design, if you will), to do the job correctly & to the best of my ability & best outcome for all...right from the get go. My husband, my husband & I on our tandem fun jumps, good friends I've come to love, or strangers I don't know & most likely will ever see again...deserve no less !!! Sorry if my using a word; not of some, nor a rigger's normal vocabulary to describe a procedure, upsets you so. As far as f@#% the TI's & the pack jobs they jump due to some packing techniques...must not be a problem for some riggers' theory to hold up dz operations due to tandem cutaways & reserve packs needed. Least of all wear & tear on mains & reserves...all very costly ! But hey, then again some riggers don't mind getting paid for frequent reserve packs...or the reasoning they can pack their own..bet a lot of dz mgmt., wouldn't mind holds in operations for a TI to pack the gear he has to jump ! ? ** Geesh, good thing I didn't bring up "cats eye-double cats eye", "monkey fist", "apex", "pillow", "hackey", "power boy", "diaper", "a mariyln monroe", " a mae west" "inversions"...would really have caused a raucous BTW: I've been multiple season staffer at 2 oldest running dz's in this Country, as Lead Packer. I've taught many packing courses to students & new tandem packers UNDER THE DIRECT SUPERVISION OF A SENIOR &/or MASTER RIGGER & IN ACCORDANCE OF MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS-RECOMMENDATIONS !!! Both original DZO's have been phenomenal mentors, as well

Ok I'll bite.... Is this a local term you all use or is this new lingo in the packing mat world? Cuz I'll be damned if it's in the Poynters manual Volume 1 or volume 2, can't find it in Beckmons manuals as well. Do you even have a riggers ticket? What is wrong with a rigger who chooses to only flat pack tdm's? What is wrong teaching a class for 25 a head, when done by...... get this, a licensed FAA rigger! I mean after all the DZ mgr ok'd it, and it's their dz to run as they please, if you don't agree go open your own dz and run as you see fit too. Sorry, but where did I say it was a licensed Rigger who taught the course. Why do I need a Riggers Ticket to comment ? So, some of us in our locale & biz refer to it, & know it as "bridging (to join by), but it doesn't matter what some of us "tag" the term or procedure...does it ? The point I was making: the Rigger I was referring to not only didn't know the procedure existed & also did not/ could not perform a packing procedure, he was unaware of. He had recently received his ticket, but ultimately lost his ticket, after many concerns & failing a re take of the course's test outs. The individual who advertised & taught a tandem packing class, was an A license jumper, at the time & part time packer...UNDER NO SUPERVISION OF A CERTIFIED SENIOR NOR MASTER RIGGER ! This in part, are some of those same less than desirable changes going on in the past couple years I'm referring to. Short cut training & instruction just to have a body fill the position, or to increase productivity & dz accomplishment numbers !! These were not reserve type flat packs (compared to pro pack, packed on the ground) she was specifically & solely teaching for tandem canopies. They were accordion type flat packs, much like packs with s/l canopies. However, I often use the flat pack technique when clearing step throughs, etc..but accordion type flat packs....not a fav of TI's & their openings ! I understand there are many ways to pack tandems ! * Best: follow mfg. recommendations ! The procedure I'm talking about, check out : Strong Enterprises Owners Manual TNT System 12/3 4-53 (i.e. page 83: 4.7.3.4, 4.7.3.5 & ***4.7.3.6 illustrations & instructions)

Now I'm NOT a Rigger, but my Basic "Bridging" Explanation: On some tandems, setting the brakes by the canopy, not by the risers. Certain tandem canopies with no brake settings, by attaching rubber bands on outside D lines to shorten (relieve slack from) & secure brake lines... Why would a manufacturer do this ? In theory, it makes for an automatic brake release & canopy openings slower & softer, bridged (without brake settings). Hey, thanks for reading my 'novel' !!

Ok, I know by looking at the length of this post, it may sway some from reading, but you new to skydive WORK, those "I don't really give a @!*# " Packers, or those who know someone who "I wannabee a packer, so I can hang out at a fun, good time, partying place, with some really cool peeps, so I can wear one of those necklaces that people will ask why are you wearing a nail around your neck & cause I'm a toys r' us kid"...listen up ! I'm troubled by questions of liability about packing before parents ok a 16 year old, to start packing student / tandem rigs. Packing is my profession & baby ! Yes, I know packers are slighted & some / most are less than respected on the dz staff totem poll, ironically by some of those same up jumpers who beg us to pack for them '06 to '11, I've been full time Lead Staff Packer at dz's, I've contracted with. I started pro packing (also skydiving) when I was 50. It's hard ass physically & emotional draining at times ! I use to love it, proud of it, but the whole dynamic of skydiving & 'new age' staffing has changed so much just in the few years I've been exposed to it, its almost disheartening. I can only imagine some of the not so pleasing nor safety conscientious changes you "pioneers" have seen coming about A question of legal liability rather than would a 16 year old have the maturity, focus, understanding of, to be a GOOD student & tandem rig packer......REALLY ??? The past 2 seasons I jump in when the floor is falling behind, so as operations don't have a shut down waiting for gear ...(Jet) Fuel is costly !!! I will always pack ALL my & my husband's sport & tandem rigs. Since, I've packed over 10,000 tandem packs & at least that many student & up jumper rigs, with only 1 mal leading to cutaway the 1st weekend I packed tandems. That 1 tandem mal to cutaway was enough ! I was taught well & mentored by some of the best of the best: Brad Badtke, Al Binnebose, Bill Hasenfus, Paul Olsen, JT Hill, on Strong's & Michael Wadkins: UPT - Vector Sigma...thank you ! It is not just an: "oh, so that's how you do you it"...!!! I've been staff at some of the best dzs & sadly, some not so much...have packed for a good ol' boy of The Liberty Parachute Team (miss ya JT ), tandems at Couch Freaks a time or 2 One of the BEST in particular, putting up over 150 tandems /day running hot loads back to back from a King Air, packing close to 40 tandems/ day, 14 hr days on the floor-7 days/ week, 6 months straight... with 100 plus degrees in the hangar, the fabric wrapping around your arms like oiled saran wrap, the beat of the sweat drops pattering from your nose, chin & eye lids not necessarily to the beat of the back ground music...perhaps to screaming students waiting for, or who have just completed their 1st tandem, barking dogs or screaming kids running through your lines & sometimes your only bath room break is at refueling...def no lunch breaks !! I have never ever deviated from what I know , nor how I pack ! One reason I gave up Lead & Full time positions is due to lack of integrity I've seen come with just hiring ANYBODY, just to have a Packer on the floor & to "get it in the bag & close it....they're meant to open..." Though courses are taught by reputable riggers, too many times the passed packer modifies shortly after he begins, learning the pay is slight, the numbers make the pay ! * Side note: experienced a rigger who didn't know how to, nor what "bridging" was. At the same dz, I 'experienced' a Packer;who only flat packs tandems, teach a course to 'students off the street', after she placed an ad in the paper & charged $25/ a head. All ok'd & in the know by dz mgmt. Sadly, what I can't condone, I don't support... just saying * BTW: don't forget your Packers...forget the tips ! A simple thank you would be great !!!

This one doesn't find prayer or acknowledgment of The Big Guy corny, at all Big Hugs & again thanks for giving the opportunity for some of us to air out ~

* swoopdaddy * I so, so applaud you & thank you so much for putting it into that perspective. For me personally, it was exactly what I had to read to continue to try to understand what my sister is going through. Thank you again. I wish you continued success in your recovery. * LuckyMcSwervy * Thank you for starting the thread ! * Wendy P * My sister was sentenced to 1 year prison, 3 years probation. Her sentence began immediately...no get out of jail free card for her this time. Hopefully, it will change & save her life. ~ Blessings & BlueSkies ~

Wendy, it is hard & sad to watch. "She" also has had severe brain injury (brain bleed) requiring surgery, her jaw & ribs broken from falls. No doubt she has lost everything & most everybody Unfortunately I live close to 400 miles away from her & my family, though I do stay in contact with her. My sister & her husband who are now raising her son, are amazing 'parents' to him. He was raised a farm boy & spends weekends at his father's family farm. He is involved in quite a few activities & outings, though he still questions his Mom... "when can I come back home ?" I have a very big family, with 9 siblings, so he has many cousins around his age...most living in their area. His aunts & uncles & older siblings also step up to help fill his void... his father is dead, his mother is trying to be...so we all know what it is most likely do to him (them) inside She has also had 2 suicide attempts in the past year. Her last was her 4th DUI, when she intentionally slammed her car into the tree where her husband was killed. She broke her neck & 7 ribs. I've told her it would seem she is meant to "live" ! She will be sentenced this afternoon. Hopefully it will save her life ! She continues to remain in my prayers. Your story & advice are much appreciated !