danornan

Every jump is managing risk. Jumping out of an airplane, at best is risky and we all choose the level we are willing to take. My level, jumping out of an airplane, is to assume the worst at all times and know that I should be able to land safely even when the conditions improve. One accident is enough! Dano

Preventing a problem before it occurs is way better.... I buy my main and reserve anticipating just such a landing on a hot, no wind day landing downwind. I've never wanted any more excitement after my parachute opens. I don't swoop. Unfortunately, even a large canopy can get caught in a downdraft, negating everything I just said. I know from experience. Dano

Maybe take it back to where you got it for some help. I have an ASUS netbook that is about 3-4 months old and I love it. Took a little while to get rid of the stuff I wasn't going to use, it it is fast and great for e-mail and the web. It came with windows 7 and I use Google Chrome for browsing. Add "SpeedBit Video Accelerator" for videos and the videos will stream without interruption. Dano

I agree... Remember I had said: 1. Educate 2. Warn 3. Ban Can you tell us his jump#, WL etc? He is visiting Z-Hills from another country and I don't know him personally or have answers to your question. Maybe someone from Z-Hills can give you an accurate answer. Dano

As someone who has responded several times on this thread, it was ironic this past weekend to watch, while on my downwind final, at about 200 feet, another canopy hooking it in in front of me. I knew he didn't have enough altitude to make it and he ended up just breaking (I think) his femur as he tumbled with the wind at his back. Most people were landing into the wind as it was fairly steady, but this individual decided to hook it, in the designated LZ. Luckily, he was the only injury. I was told later that management had spoken to this person 3 times in the past week and he was still acting as if he was the only on at the DZ. Until people are either banned or sat down for a month or two, this activity will continue. But not by him! Dano

From a Facebook posting: "Last 3 jumps today - 195 way, 200 way (for a second) & a 199 way for 7 or 8. 6AM start in full gear, going for the sequential. The prep is done....... now to deliver!!" Dano

Because if I stand up and say that every A license candidate needs to attend a basic canopy control course, and here is the syllabus for that course; nobody is going to listen, and nothing will be accomplished. If the USPA stands up and says that every A license candidate needs to attend a basic canopy control course, and here is the syllabus for that course, everyone is going to listen, and every A licesne candidate will attend a basic canopy control course. I'll expand that last statement a bit - every A license candidate will attend a basic canopy control course before being awarded the A license, and set free to jump along side you and I with little or no supervision. I don't see an epidemic of low time jumpers dieing because they don't know basic canopy control. The fatalities seem to be clustered in mid and high time jumpers failing in HP landings or canopy collisions. By the way, can you fly your canopy out of a hole in the ground? Thanks John..... a nice dose of reality! Dano

QuoteI am wondering if anyone has specifically spoken to a director and specifically given him or her something to present to Safety and Training? accompanied by over regualation. YES I started several months ago and the response was very positive. If everyone interested in a change would do the same there, it would make a positive difference. I want more predictability in the LZ. It needs to be emphasized in TRAINING and ENFORCEMENT. Not one or the other, but both. Dano

Ron, Does it have to be either or? Why not do both? What would be the downside? Seems like they could both play a part in a safer drop zone. Dano

Ron, I think that you and I, and a lot of others that are responding to this thread are really saying a lot of the same things. I'm hoping that the USPA reads this and not just their "internet dissucssion." I do agree that education will play a part in safer canopy action. My concern is under 1,000 feet and what you said about the GKs is quite accurate. They land as if there is a pattern with each where he needs to be automatically. Unfortunately on informal loads, even with the proper education, a previously set pattern, that is enforced will help to do the same thing. There is no reason why the education can't be improved, but how do you re educate the 50,000 that are already licensed? I think it is time for a few stop signs on the DZ that are enforced. 1. Each DZ has an established pattern below 1,000 feet. 2. No hook turns or swoops in the pattern, only in designated areas. I don't think that you can leave it only to education. Dano

Just seems to me that training and a perdictable pattern are two different issues. Not hooking it in the pattern is another. To say that the accidents will be reduced with different of better training is like saying that drivers ed will negate the need for no stop signs at a busy intersection. Training is always good, but rules are needed to make the LZ more perdictable. Dano

Good link with pros and cons of each for anyone still on the fence: http://www.the-lasik-directory.com/lasik_prk_chart.html Just used Google to find it. I haven't had either, just clear lenses inserted for mono-vision 5 years ago. Love it! After reading though about lasik, I would make sure to always wear good eye protection because of the occasional hits during 4-way. Dano

Follow Dr's instructions and be sure to wear good eye protection. The unexpected happens all the time. You can't be too cautious with your eyes and you have lots of time to skydive. Dano

All of the above issues throughout this thread stem from the same thing, confusion.... Better training is always a good thing. Common sense, though not always common will prevail at exceptions! Better thought to have all follow a rule most of the time. Without a BASIC rule that all are aware of, there will ALWAYS be confusion. My personal opinion is that a rule stating that below X altitude, you are in the predetermined pattern and will land as such is the safest approach. It is a starting point and there will be exceptions. BUT, even if my rule is not the one, I can promise to follow what ever the agreed upon rule is. This will limit confusion. It is the unexpected that is killing people, not the rule. Dano

The irrational fear of landing downwind has led to hook turns too close to the ground and caused needless deaths to canopy pilots and innocent bystanders. Maybe landing down wind should be, if it isn't already, part of the introductory canopy course that is being discussed. This won't solve all of the landing issues, but will go a long way in helping, along with initiating at all DZ's, a fixed landing pattern. Eliminating hook turns below 1,000 feet, except in a designated area will also play a major part in preventing landing deaths. Dano

"One jumper landed South, setting the pattern for everyone after. The next jumper landed north, resetting the landing pattern for everyone after(or atleast we all followed them, since most jumpers all saw that landing). And one group decided to land slightly into the Wind(west)." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "This is exactly why I'm a fan of setting a predetermined direction. I hate sitting under canopy being confused about where everyone is landing. It's to the point now that if I'm not one of the last guys down, I just land away from the mess. I'd rather walk an extra 100 yards than to be involved in a collision." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lots of good information in this thread. As someone previously said, if there is a pattern, ( what a concept!) you can enter it just about anyplace and land accordingly. That might mean landing down wind. It's OK to get the jump suit dirty... or land away from the DZ. Don't die or kill someone just so that you can land into the wind and hit the peas. To the originator of this thread, thank for sharing your experience. The discussion is good. Dano

Way too many delusional people. This is not in direct response to anyone, so unless the shoe fits, please ignore! The FOD (First One Down) does not work for several reasons, unless you are doing 4-way out of a small Cessna! Please try to face REALITY as it IS and not as you'd like it to be. This thought process will will continue to keep getting people under a good working canopy killed. Can't think of any reason to not land a parachute like an airplane. Even gliders must enter the pattern and cannot do hook turns or swoop a pond in the LZ. Have a set, agreed upon pattern for the LZ and enforce it. You might have to enter the pattern late or downwind, but in the words of some organizers, "Suck it up cupcake." Dano

That is part of canopy training. I disagree ... If multiple groups are boarding an Otter and one group "decides" to land into the wind and it changes for the second load and one person "heard" that they should follow the first person down, and "most" people know that the landing direction is N-S, they are all right and we have a real cluster in the LZ. How is that taught in the SIM? Everyone is right and we have kaos. There needs to be a drop zone rule that everyone follows. Not something determined at the loading area. Dano

I do understand the need for canopy training, but to me, that is not the real problem. I'm sure that it will help, but the main problem this year is the actions below 1,000 feet and in the so called landing pattern. Learning better canopy skills is like learning better ways to handle a car. It's all good, but in order to have PREDICTABILITY in the LZ, there have to be rules. A road intersection must have rules for everyone to get through safely. The rules are not always followed, and some will always choose to ignore them, but without a set of enforceable guidelines in the LZ, and not just assumptions, we will continue to have swoopers in the pattern, high performance parachutes overtaking the slow ones and hook turns killing innocent bystanders. I have been on the receiving end of what I am complaining about and learned that the safest place in the LZ was far from the peas and spectators. Dano

..... seems like I remember Paul Newman doing something like that to a VW Bug many years ago. Loved to pass Corvettes on the highway. Dano

I don't think a canopy training course will makes a difference. Here is a copy of a corrected letter I wrote about a month ago to Jay Stokes.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To: Jay Stokes President of the USPA From: Dan Rosenthal D-11308 USPA # Date: 08 15 2010 Subject: Unpredictability in the Landing Zone Jay, It was a pleasure to meet you this past weekend at the event in Deland, honoring Col Joe Kitteringer. This memo is in reference to my conversation with you about what I think might reduce the deaths that are occurring in the Landing Zone (LZ) at many parachute centers throughout the world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the past few years, the number of deaths under good parachute has been increasing to greater than 50% of all skydiving fatalities. I think this is mostly because of either high speed landings that go awry (hook turns) that not only affected the skydiver in particular, but too often, an innocent bystander or another skydiver, when it has occurred close to the ground and/or at several hundred feet. I feel that we have this problem because, unlike airplanes that must land in a particular direction, skydivers land in different directions. This creates an unnecessary hazardous environment. My solution is a predictable landing pattern at every USPA Member Drop Zone. In order to be an approved “member” USPA drop zone, you would have to agree to abide by this requirement. The FAA mandates a predictable landing pattern for airplanes. We can do the same for parachutes. I think that the USPA requires a separation between the regular LZ and a designated high performance LZ but the term separate is very ambiguous and not the same thing as a formal landing pattern. As an example, I regularly skydive at Z-Hills where there is a separate swoop pond. EVERYONE must walk by it or in front of it to get from the LZ back to the packing area. It is separate but in the path of everyone walking back to pack! One of the complaints I’ve heard to having a pre determined pattern is the fact that some people might occasionally have to land downwind. My answer to that is to land down wind. It is a skill that every skydiver should know. Skydivers have died because they were afraid to do a downwind landing and turned too low. A predictable pattern will not stop the deaths, but will reduce them significantly. At least there will be a plan.. Right now there are no rules, just informal agreement that literally change with the wind! What is the present landing “rule?” 1. Watch the windsock and chase it all around. 2. Everyone agrees before boarding the airplane on a landing direction and then someone changes their mind in the air. 3. First one down sets the pattern, unless the wind changes! and on and on... I land as far from the peas as possible and try to be last down. I’m never in a hurry to get down first. After my parachute opens I don't want any more excitement. My bottom line question is, “Why not have a predictable landing pattern in the LZ?” Dano

Tony, Choose to believe what you wish..... From an interview with British Television..... Netanyahu at his best Even those who aren't particularly sympathetic to Israel 's Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from this interview with British Television during the retaliation against Hamas' shelling of Israel The interviewer asked him: "How come so many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis?" (A nasty question if there ever was one!) Netanyahu: "Are you sure that you want to start asking in that direction?" Interviewer: (Falling into the trap) Why not? Netanyahu: "Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the war was caused by Germany 's aggression. And in response to the German blitz on London , the British wiped out the entire city of Dresden , burning to death more German civilians than the number of people killed in Hiroshima ... Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen , some of the bombs missed their target and fell on a Danish children's hospital, killing 83 little children. Perhaps you have another question?" Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave another interview and was asked about Israel 's occupation of Arab lands. His response was, "It's our land". The reporter (CNN or the like) was stunned - read below "It's our land..." It's important information since we don't get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events. "Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli Conflict." Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation. These were compiled by a Christian university professor: BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY... (It takes just 1.5 minutes to read!) It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew -- it doesn't matter. 1. Nationhood and Jerusalem : Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand (2000) years before the rise of Islam. 2... Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel. 3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BC, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. 4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 lasted no more than 22 years. 5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem , they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit. 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Koran. 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem . Mohammed never came to Jerusalem . 8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem . Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem . 9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews . Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else. 10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms. 11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same. 12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel , a country no larger than the state of New Jersey ... 13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won. 14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel . Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them. 15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths. 16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel . 17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel . 18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians. 19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives . 20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren about what we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference? Dano

Nice! Naaaaa don't reject it, just curious about what or who makes or determines if a word correctly spelled. Now back to religion........... Dano

Guess I've always wondered about why a word is misspelled? Who gets to determine if it is spelled "correctly" or not? Do we get to vote? Is there a designated expert? Just curious... Dano

In the late 60's there was one on the campus of West Virginia University. Al least it was there the summer of '69. Almost made my first jump there.... Dano