pilatus_p

Yes, between 6 months to a year was a common figure at Brunel Univeristy as well. Of course, we all had less cash - couldnt always afford to jump even if they had the weather... I think whats emerging is that the SL experience in the States is very different to what has been found in the UK - which largely seems to be one of long waits and, at least in the case of guys from my old uni, frequent repeats. We used to put about 100 students a year through a RAPS FJC. Most (90 of that 100) dropped out after 2 or 3 jumps, (though of course this is not necassarily directly because of the RAPS programme itself) and the remainder, their motivation dented by frequent unfruitful drives to the DZ, tended to drift onto AFF, what with the end of its 8 jump programme always feeling just that little bit more in sight. Perhaps UK SL schools could benefit by talking to some of the US SL instructors to find out what they are doing right? It looks as though if people really want to do static line, then the States is the place to go! Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

And whilst I can see this discussion is getting pretty heated, the original poster was asking for opinions on the two courses. I did just that - posted my opinion based on my experience and the experience of several other people that have been through the system - ultimately S/L didn't 'feel' right to them or me, for the reasons I've quoted. I am a student, thats correct, and so I posted my view as someone who has been through what skyflygirl is looking to do now, the feelings I experienced doing it (something which accumulated with time and came from personal experince as well as speaking to other students) and ultimately why I opted for AFF. So I don't agree that this is a one sided discussion of AFF being best - its just that more people who have replied to the original thread preferred AFF over SL and had their reasons for doing so. To provide further examples only from experience - and as an example of only ONE aspect of learned skydiver skills, not an overall summation - the one friend of mine who passed RAPS went back for tunnel time to correct an emerging body postion problem. So did lots of AFF guys I know. All of the AFF'ers and the SL'er learned to spot and pack. We have not got your experience and jump numbers, but we do have our experiences, both our own and friends who are further along the system - and that is what was asked for by the original poster. However factually accurate, the tone of some of the replies in this thread, not to mention one or two personal attacks, has been pretty shameful, especially coming from those who claim to be setting the example. For those interested or concerned about getting 'noisy' experience from posters such as myself - If you are looking for british instructor level advice on the british system, you can get it here http://www.bpa.org.uk/skydive/ on the dive doctor page, call the BPA or circumvent the forum and PM an instructor here. If you want examples of student experiences, then yes you will get 'noise'. Caveat always applies - check with your instructor that is teaching you. Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Guys Have some of you thought of switching to decaf? Skyflygirl, hope whatever you choose is awesome! Catch you on a DZ sometime Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

There's some unusual arguments going on in this thread. I have done both SL and AFF, and IMO I have to say AFF is much better. I cannot understand these views of SL being better because: 1) you dont have to pull and hence need no JM True - for the early jumps. Once you're past DRCP's you're onto your first short delay. 'you dont have to pull' is misinformation to a newbie, because presuming you get through the first 5 jumps straight off, you are pulling on jump 6. Oh and yeah - dont drop the DRCP or that is going to cost you extra ... 2) can jump when AFF'ers can't Again, true for early jumps. But get on to your delays, and you need to go higher. That 3500' cloud base is starting to look the same as it does to the AFF'ers ... 3) Static line doesnt take longer and encourages greater stability In the UK, during ther colder / wetter months (e.g 9 out of 12 of them), it can take FOREVER. Of all the guys I know that tried to stick with RAPS, most dropped out because of waiting for jumpable weather, queueing to get on rare loads when the weather was OK, and then having to go and do it again (and again) when they went unstable on their 10 second delays. This final point was most people's reason to switch to AFF - it SCARY tumbling through the air, with your view going blue green blue green blue green and then hoping that you manage to dump stable. All this after around 30 jumps - because they lost the advantage of recency by waiting weeks between each jumpable slot! SL may be great in the US in warmer climates, but in the UK, my money is on AFF every time. One good weekend and you can get through, and if you go unstable there's a JM there to save your ass. If you can punch out 18 RAPS jumps in two days then I would be impressed (though of course I am sure saying that will encourage a flood of superheroes to reply saying they did it last week) Cost comparison: ----------------------- AFF = 8 jumps, total cost £1500 plus any resits, Early levels are expensive e.g level 1 £300 RAPS: FJC + jump 1 = £200 17 jumps @ £35 each = £595 total cost £795. If you do what my mates did and take 30 jumps, that cost climbs to £1250. Finally, the first few seconds of freefall for my first AFF was about the sensory overload (eg errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr WHAAAAAAAAAAAT????), but after 5 or so seconds I was aware and learning. With SL, I wasn't even through the SO before I had a canopy above my head. I got GATW for the first 2 jumps, which I dont even remember until the canopy opened. A MAJOR advantage of AFF - your jumps are videoed. Unstable? Screwed up your pull? Trying to tear the PC from your legstrap when you have a BOC? (ahem. yes that was me) ... your JM can SHOW YOU exactly what you did, 5 minutes after you land ... RAPS will not have this advantage unless you ask for someone to fly camera for you. I switched to AFF. I'm glad I did, as are the many skydivers I know who did the same thing ... In the UK, if you have the patience, time and skill, then RAPS would be a cheaper option. If you want to get qualified and begin working on things like CH, RW and FS asap, then AFF for me, every time. Bit more RAPS info: http://www.freefalladdicts.com/article_static_line.shtml EDIT: Definitely agree with the spotting, packing etc. Most UK courses do seem to emphasise these, but the inevitable sitting around waiting for jumpable weather in the UK means you have fu*k all else to do with your time ... Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

I kept getting told to relax. My problem was that I WAS relaxing (no buffeting) - but with my leg sticking out. If I'd arched any harder I would have been a falling paper clip - for me it was all about having wonky legs! Still, gave my JM some good student catching practice ... Cheers Torben!!!! Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

I was wondering if anyone would actually google that word. Curiosity is a wonderful thing - you must be a very safe skydiver Given an abacus, there's little beyond the mathematical capabilities of beetles and weevils. They put bluebottles to shame, especially working in co-ordinated groups. Which just goes to prove the saying, "there is no 'fly' in team" Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Cool, well, I think I learned some stuff here in this thread, I will look forward to the training! Is October a grumpy month for everyone? Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

To the experienced guys - Is the sensation of a poised exit (i.e. 'standing') very different from a dive exit (i.e. 'flat') ? Do you feel more of the 'falling' sensation this way? Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

From now on your motto shall be 'Nihil Vomitandum, pro Patriae et Canis Mia' Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Oh that part will be fine. I'm just worried about funny sensations in my chap. Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

True dat. I got it on a static line jump out of a little wee cessna. Out of a Porter, nothing at all. I must say that sinking feeling is not a friend of mine. It doesnt hit me in the stomach like other people you see. Its ... um ... well, its kind of further ... um ... south Should I avoid balloon jumps? I dont want to go foetal at sub terminal ... Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

I never said it wasn't fun. I just said it was way scarier. I like being scared - which is why I often check my PM's. Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

I found static line 10 times (and I calculated this figure using coleopterology) as scary as AFF. Sensory Overload? Everything went black. And yes, my eyes were open. We did seated door exits from a little wee cessna, door was just behind the wing. No strut hangs for us. Good old Hinton! Doug we love youuuuuuuuuuuuu oh yeah sorry for screaming on my first jump ... oh and accidentally slapping your JM on the second ... and not DRCP'ing on the third ... oh and dragging your canopy through a bush .... and doing a step through landing .... and .... etc Enjoy. Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Out of curiosity - of the girls on here who date skydivers, how many people's boyfriends are instructors or very experienced, and how many date the more humble low number jumper? I'm trying to figure out if its worth putting on aftershave next time I go jumping Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Thanks everyone for your input. I have been reading a lot that people feel spotting is a dying art so Its good to see that you guys still regard it as important, and that the BPA requires it, espcially as I have seen GPS give a bad spot a few times before (not to say that a human can't do the same!!!) I will have to delve back into my Skydiving Handbook and fill my brain with more info from there. Little white fluffy ones Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

It should be an official regulation to shout "CHUNKS AT ALTITUDE!!!!!!!!" If you believe you are going to barf. Then the pilot can hand back a USPA regulation vom bag and protect everyones gear from flying bile. Either that or do it inside your jumpsuit. Nasty girl. I thought I liked you until now. Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Hmm ok cool, so I will probably get the training later in my progression. The thing I have difficulty understanding is how 'uppers' and 'lowers' affect the spot. Obviosuly the pilot will know exactly what altitude the wind speeds pick up, but as a passenger stuffed in the back of a porter I couldnt see how to estimate this for myself, and hence pick a good spot that would take into account hight speed uppers and lower speed low altitude winds. Is it just 'a feeling' or is there more of an art to it? Ta very much chuck (as we say in the UK) Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Hi During my static line jumps in the UK, the JM routinely used a WDI to aid spotting at altitude. He also told us to look at the ground to get a feel for what different altitudes look like. On my AFF there was an automatic GPS spotter, which let out a loud "Dee doo dee doo dee doo" when over the spot (and normally made my rear end do unusual things). Another friend who did his AFF was taught how to spot routinely. He went through a USPA training scheme, same as me. So is there a standard approach when it comes to spotting? I have never seen the green light system that many people mention, but I presume this another version of the GPS 'auto-spot', or a pilot decision? I would like to know how to spot for myself so will be asking instructors when Im back in the air. Thanks Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

This thread is hilarious. Long live DZ.com Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

The question being "how long does it take to reach terminal velocity"? Right, you asked for this one. Anyone who's scared of equations, look away NOW. Still here? Good. You're a nerd. EQUATIONY BIT (with the explanation - skip to discussion if this stuff bores you) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Newtons 2nd law of motion: The acceleration of an object as produced by a net force is directly proportional to the magnitude of the net force, in the same direction as the net force, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object. If no force acts on a body, it will remain at rest or move with constant speed. Force due to Pressure Drag = (Air Density) x (co-efficient of drag) x (area presented to wind) x ((0.5 x velocity) SQUARED) Force due to e.g gravity = mass (your mass) x acceleration (in this case, gravity at 9.81 ms^2) or F=ma Lets say your mass is 100kg. Apart from thr fact you need to lose weight, the force due to the acceleration of gravity on your body is F(grav) = 100kg x 9.81 m/s^2 = 981 Newtons We have said that terminal is when the drag force equals the down ward force, so that no net force acts on the body and hence the body travels with constant speed - TERMINAL VELOCITY So F(drag) = 981N In the equation above we want to know what speed will give us this value of drag. Finding a coefficient of drag for human body belly to earth, somehow, and knowing the area of the human body facing the wind: Velocity = square root of: Force due to drag --------------------- (Air density) x (Area) x (Co-ef drag) Now according to Isaac Newton (argue with him if you must) v (final velocity) = u (starting velocity) + at (acceleration x time) From isaacs equation then: time = v / a DISCUSSIONY BIT --------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, in an ideal world, you would just find the point at which the forces balance for these equations and solve for velocity ... But this is planet earth so - The drag increases with the square of the speed. That means, as you go gradually faster, there is a rapidly increasing force retarding your downward acceleration. So, you dont speed up quite as quickly as the simple F=ma suggests (or more accurately, a is varying all the time) - it balances itself against drag (both pressure and skin friction drag). The upshot of all this mental masturbation, and arguably the only paragraph you were actually interested in, is that it takes roughly 12 seconds to hit terminal. I could set up a spreadsheet that would find time to terminal for different weights and surface areas of divers, but frankly I feel this post has already done more than enough to cause at least 5 backlash posts, an ass kicking from someone in the academic fraternity and a number of mildly abusive PM's. Oh and at least one person saying "yeah equations are great, by my mate bob once survived falling in a vat of molasses wearing only a kilt from 20,000 feet, so you're wrong, science boy" Once again I have an urge for lard. Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Oooh ooh ooh ohh me first http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1584&string=Icarus%20VX%2039 Ok he's keeping up with a wingsuit. But still very cool. The forward speed is immense! Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Hi Jakee I had that convo with an actual skydiver. He maintained that everything SHOULD fall at the same speed too, though couldnt explain why they didnt. He actually got angry when I explained it and wouldnt accept that version of things. OK maybe calling him a "halfling inbred web-footed simpleton with the class and grace of an infected smallpox boil" wasnt the best way to win him round, but there was a matter of pride at stake. Sometimes its better to keep the peace than burst someones bubble

PROF PROF PROF PROF PROF PROF!!!!! We need kallend!! My feeling as a complete nerd is that if you jump out dead flat, you have no downward velocity or acceleration at the instant of exit. So the instant you are out, gravity will begin to act to accelerate you downwards. Horizontal motion will have no effect on (look up vector addition in a high school textbook ) vertical acceleration or speed, but it will make your flight path parabolic in one plane of motion. Soooo based on that, I would agree that exiting horizontally would have no effect. If you pushed DOWN or UP it might affect time to terminal FRACTIONALLY. Terminal is only the point where drag force = force due to gravity, and drag is proportional to your presented surface area and the square of your speed. I will now go and congratulate myself for using long words in a post by having a cheese and pickle sandwich. With lard. Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Is that strictly an official practise? I bet she wanted to jump again after though! Strut hangs must be useful for refusing students. Otherwise you'd have to wrestle them to the door and chuck them out ... Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

Nice! I like the effect on it - is a scan, or have you added some filter to it? It looks all fuzzy (in a good way) Ross http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm