mnischalke

Dude. let it go!!!! If you look at the winds aloft and then factor in group size of the group in front of you, you can gauge your separation simply every time. I like to ask the pilot (or look at the gps if possible) for groundspeed so I can see if the winds aloft are still current, but this groundspeed is just an indicator for the speed of the winds at that altitude, if the airplane is flying it's normal jumprun speed. I look at the ground only to check the spot. If you pay attention to how fast the plane is traveling across the ground, you are being distracted from looking for other aircraft in your airspace by something which is completely inaccurate as it is based on your perception of an object moving 2.5 miles away. Winds aloft are what get you to the right spot above the ground. Once you're open, you can then decide if you're gonna make it to the spot on the ground or if you got to find a new place to land (which may kill you). mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Simply, as has been stated many times in this thread, the number of deaths and injuries occurring in off-field landings greatly outnumber deaths and injuries caused by falling through another canopy at an altitude higher than the traditional deployment window of 2-3.5k. As a matter of fact, I know of no instances of this happening. Please feel free to educate me if I have missed something. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

So they didn't offset the downwind jumprun? Wild. Mark that off as one place I won't be jumping. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

I don't even know about that. Ever chase a chunk or a tandem out of a plane? Notice how much separation you get within a second or two? You really gotta track yer ass off to get with whatever you're chasing. I stand by my belief that a slide or a track which alters the gravity-driven (assuming same winddrift between groups) trajectory of the path of the jumper(s) is the only real way to get above a previous group (besides the well-established increase in drift by a slower-falling second group). mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Plain english: The higher you open, the less chance of a canopy collision. (period). The only exceptions to this are a second plane dropping a load within a few minutes of your load or a true down-wind jumprun. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Your model assumes falling straight down the column of air. Mine (the only way someone could get above you given any real separation between groups) is considering sliding of either group. The farther through space the two groups get, considering a slide, the closer they get until the converge. The angle of the sliding group decides the point of convergance. So, the higher you open, the less the likelyhood of convergance. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

What I am saying is that if they converged on your column of air and end up above you at any time during the jump, they're gonna be there when you deploy too. I just tried to explain the same thing in this thread. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

If they are above you at, say 7k, they're still gonna be above you at 3k. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

How? Seriously, I want to know what you base this theory on. (I am assuming you read and understand both this thread and the other one linked in the post to which you replied.) I think it's quite clear from both threads that the higher you pull within your column of air, the less likely it will be that your airspace will be intersected by another jumper. It may seem counterintuitive, but taking a 5 second delay right out of the plane, no matter where in the exit order you are is about as safe a thing as you could possibly do. In turn, this has made me even more leary about sucking it down to the basement, as my chances of falling through an open canopy by having converging columns of air (granted, I would somehow have to stop looking) are increased with every passing foot. Now that I think about it, I can't remember ever reading about a freefall/canopy hit above 3k. It's usually right down around 2k, where the effects of a slide and/or poor exit separation are the greatest. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Dude, whatever you and your dzo decide is between you and them. I do have a problem with your screenname. Is your corpse posting this evening? Jesus. You are alive today. Tomorrow you might not be--HIV or no. Go skydive or something. Fretting over it ain't gonna do you a bit of good. Nobody gets out of this shithole alive, we might as well make the best of the fleeting moments we got here.

I think the thread you are looking for went here. Read bits, pieces or every bit of it, but pay special attention to kallend's last post which may enlighten you. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Please explain why you believe this. From what I see, you are saying that the open canopy will follow the same descent path as a freefalling jumper. In fact, the jumper under canopy will be blown off the freefall trajectory as soon as the canopy opens. Further, the second jumper is NOT falling through the same air as the first. He is falling through a column of air several hundred feet upwind of the first jumper, depending upon the speed of the aircraft through the airmass and delay between jumpers. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

totally false. (unless you are talking about point in space in relation to the ground, which is useless to talk about). Think about it. the two groups may share the same coordinates in space, but they do not share the same airspace. Each group has it's own column of air. If an aircraft is doing 80kts through the air, regardless of groundspeed, one jumper may exit an aircraft and deploy immediately. The next jumper can give 10 seconds, jump and deploy immediately. Using your theory, the second jumper would hit the first jumper. In fact, the jumper is x (math folks with time on your hands, help a brother out) distance away from the second. If the windspeed is the same at deployment as it is at jump altitude, the columns of air are perfectly parallel down to deployment altitude and basically transpose the hop-n-pop separation as above. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Maybe you're not missing it, but it's simply the differential between jump altitude winds and deployment altitude winds. If the differential is large, you need more time between groups. If the differential is less, you can give less time. Still, this may all relate to speed above ground, but it has nothing to do with the ground itself, nor should the ground be used as your true indicator for separation. The spot (canopy flight back to your landing area) has to do with ground. Separation has to do only with the air between 13.5k(+/-) and 3k (+/-). Why else do you think the pilots post those little predicted wind numbers on the dry-erase board near manifest? Nothing else better to do? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

no, not even close. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Simply, yes. If we are basing this on the 60 mph model, if one canopy opens at 3 seconds, he's facing wind which is 60 mph, relative to the ground. Even facing into the wind, there is no canopy that I know of--which someone will actually land--that will go 60+ mph and therefore cannot get into the airspace of the next jumper. The danger of hitting a canopy which was out before you comes into play only when the differential between windspeed at jump altitude and the windspeed at deployment altitude differs greatly. If it's 100kts at jump altitude, and 0 at deployment altitude, the canopys can be open in the same airspace, if the second group delays deployment for a distance equal to the first group's opening altitude plus the descent rate of the open canopy of the first group. Still, this is all based on speed in relation to the ground, but irrelevant to the ground because you're not on the ground. Do we agree that the canopy arrests the descent of a jumper and prolongs the exposure to the wind? Then--and this is the important part--if we use the sliding rule of windspeed reduction with altitude loss, a canopy will move even more quickly away from the next group's path (column of air) the higher the deployment (since the winds only decrease with loss of altitude in this model). mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

I understand your analogy, but it's inconsistent with this discussion. Bullets are affected by wind, but they don't have parachutes. Nonetheless, no matter how fast you fire your gun, those bullets will not run into each other in flight. Remember, it's what happens at the deployment altitude that matters. The ground has nothing to do with this situation other than it's where you're going. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

I thought that too, until I went to SoBe... Then I got on the sunset load, and it somehow got even better. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

It remains a fixed object relative to the ground. The ground doesn't matter until you land. The aircraft is still traveling through the air. The air is moving, thus causing separation horizontally and vertically based upon delay between groups. No matter where above the ground the groups open, the air continues to move the first group away from the spot of deployment. Each group has it's own column of air and unless the second group is sliding, the two groups will never share the same air. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

I think what some folks may not be realizing is that the aircraft, even traveling 100 kts in 100 kts headwind (thereby negating groundspeed), is still traveling through the air at 100kts. The first group may exit the aircraft at exactly the same spot above the ground as the second group, but the first group will be in a totally separate column of air than the second group, given a reasonable delay between exits. Therefore, the space in which the first group will deploy will be continuing to move downwind, and the position the second group's deployment will be further upwind (even though it may be over the same place on the ground). The reason to increase time between groups on jumpruns with high winds at altitude is because generally, the winds decrease by opening altitudes and thereby causing a stacking effect. Nonetheless, the groups will be opening in different columns of air, no matter their position over the ground. The only case in which this whole thing is negated is when the wind at 3000 is zero or 180 degrees from the winds at altitude. Something else to consider when looking at comparing zero groundspeed jumpruns to jumping from fixed objects is bridge day. They huck how many jumpers through the same column of air in how many hours with how much separation? Think about it. I guess the thing is with groups falling through columns of air (irrespective of position over the ground), if groups are falling faster or slower, with columns which are straight down, or askew from sliding, the closer to the ground you get, the higher the likelyhood of converging columns of air. If you leave an aircraft after me with a reasonable delay and you have a backslide which is causing you to directly intersect my column of air at some point, if I dump at 6k, you have a lesser chance of hitting my canopy than you do if I open at 3k. That chance increases further by 2k (unless your backsliding so hard you bisect my column at 3k and get past me. got me? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

and they are even better on a no-moon night... mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Hmmmm, I didn't know that the Go Fast IPC World Cup of Canopy Piloting was an actual PST event. You sure about that? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Eh, I can make nearly any semi-automatic firearm seem as if it were select fire. Full auto is cool on the range, but terribly impractical even for a criminal hell bent on taking out a bunch of people. Guess that's why they are used only in the scantest number of crimes. BTW, what you're agreeing with is not what I believe Kallend is saying (much to the surprise of my startled eyes!). mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Like this? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

Unless you already have a D license. Those 20,000+ people don't have to worry about it. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.