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btw, did you even GET my voice mail from earlier today? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

loved it... now she's always lookin for british arses to sniff... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

i did call you, you sooty-lovin, felon-humpin limey bastard! listen to your voice mail! I gotta go to bed! i'm in philly on business... i'll call ya prolly tomorrow... kiss the missus for me... w/ tongue... better yet, give 'er a mushroom stamp for me I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

it's cruel. to purposely put kids into this distress, even over a sucker, for the sole purpose of capturing their emotion on film, is sadistic. and it's completely unnecessary. and for quade to equate it w/ tickling is ludicrous. as you say, she could have easily gotten what she was after by photographing the kids in vivo. but that wouldn't have been so "artsy" now, would it. michele, come take pictures of my kids after I've ticked them intentionally for the sake of you capturing them giddy w/ laughter, and let's compare them w/ these pics... yeah, that's it... was any LONG term damage done to the kid? doubtful. but is that REALLY the point? why subject the kid to ANY pointless suffering, for that is what this was, pointless distress. does the kid understand what's going on? can the kid assimilate the grand scheme, the "lofty goal" of this art? hell, most adults won't get it, because there ISN'T ONE! "To stimulate dialogue." What a bunch of horseshit. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

i recently heard that place is the only part of the air force that actually turns a profit... heinky. lots of cool shit there, for sure. i hear you can get tours too... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

OMG I'm such an idiot NOW I get it!!!!! DUH!!!! Shit I'm a dunce... It's my sig line... je suis un tres idiot! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

... borrow a jump ship or two for the convention? they seem to have a few good ones to spare... http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1073450&WxsIERv=Ybpxurrq%20P-5N%20Tnynkl%20%28Y-500%29&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=HFN%20-%20Nve%20Sbepr&QtODMg=Ghpfba%20-%20Qnivf-Zbaguna%20NSO%20%28QZN%20%2F%20XQZN%29&ERDLTkt=HFN%20-%20Nevmban&ktODMp=Znl%201%2C%202006&BP=0&WNEb25u=Wvz%20Arjgba&xsIERvdWdsY=70-0168&MgTUQtODMgKE=Gur%2013%20P-5N%20Tnynkvrf%20ner%20ortvaavat%20gb%20or%20qvfznagryq.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=2116&NEb25uZWxs=2006-07-11%2021%3A36%3A54&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=7&static=yes&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28qngrfgnzc%20%3E%20qngr_fho%28ABJ%28%29%2C%20VAGREINY%2024%20UBHE%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20ivrjf%20qrfp&photo_nr=4&prev_id=1073218&next_id=1073201&size=L I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

i second what grue said... i'm at 70 jumps and have a fusion 210 and have an exit weight of 240. it's a great canopy. however on days w/ NO WIND, it does come in a little on the quick side and it requires that you fly it all the way in. even a little bit of wind helps a great deal. it's very docile when you want it to be but will give you lots of thrills when you wish as well. i have the same package you do except i went w/ the super raven 218 reserve... i've been very satisfied... now if we could just get george to finish those owners manuals...

je suis si confus et vous êtes très étrange. bon nuit. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Pourquoi vous m'appelez un couchon? Je n'ai pas parlé de votre mère. Je ne comprends pas. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

was on a load this past friday w/ Lew Sanborn at Archway Skydiving... did a hop-n-pop w/ him at 4k as he and some other POPS (and one PUP, moi) goofed off in preperation for a POPS meet there this past weekend. Was very, very cool to jump w/ such a legend and to have him sign my logbook. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

I'd say there was a fundamental MISunderstanding. I was attempting to be funny. And yes, I absolutely understand the teachings of the church, I just happen to think that many of the teachings are bunk. Not to say that the church has no redeeming values - there are many church teachings that I still follow and appreciate. But surely booting scientists out the door is not the answer. I really don't think that is what Jesus would do. the church isn't booting them out. a latae sententiae excommunication is NOT some action taken by the church for something someone has done. If a catholic woman has an abortion she is excommunicating herself simply by having an abortion. there is a difference. would jesus do this? did he kick out the money changers from the temple? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

no he didn't, but we should try to save them, shouldn't we... this is where you and I will always differ... I think it IS possible to discern the mind and will of God. It appears to me that you do not. Am I correct? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Why do you say that? If this science reaches fruition, the body aspect for all of us could become commodities. The thing that makes us unique is our free will/soul. God gives us that. God also gives us an incredible brain. So many times now the Catholic church has been proven wrong in limiting the pursuit of knowledge. Science and God DO NOT HAVE TO CONFLICT. Why does the Church keep making it so? There's some willfull ignorance in there somewhere, and I doubt it's on God's part. It just amazes me that the Catholic church deems itself the voice of God on this planet. It is the height of arrogance in my opinion. Not any more. Mankind has used it's brain power to success, yet again. What about knowledge for the sake of knowledge? There is absolute beauty there. Why not pursue knowledge? So, God being omnipotent and everything, how have we done that? Nothing personal, but this phrase always gets my dander up. Exactly what do you mean by this? God looks human? When I was 16 years old, my goal in life was to be a Southern Baptist minister. I LIVED MY BELIEFS EVERY DAY, WITHOUT FAIL! Then, one day, I dared to question. Went to college, learned thermodynamics. Spent a long time seeking a new understanding of God with that basis. And I found it. The English language is FAR from perfect. In no way can we expect to describe everything that is God in our language. Hell, I don't even view God as a noun. In my current understanding, it looks much better as a verb. I emphased the word current because my knowledge will most certainly grow in this life. I'm going to allow it to. The soul is. It's not created at conception. It's already there waiting to merge with the physical body. I very much agree with you on the family aspect. Children need to be loved and nurtured, and once you produce one, it's your job in this life to see that happens. No execuses allowed, not even any reasons. Scoob... not one thing you said offends me in the least... they're your beliefs, and you're being respectful of mine... what's to be offended by here?

do we really need to let this discussion deteriorate this way? First of all, maybe address the meat and bones of my post, and not 2 sentences. I said that because it is significant that I attended 12 years of Catholic school, and I think the church is hosed. I think the Catholic church is doomed without some fundamental changes. I am not some outsider with no knowledge of the church, or its teachings, but rather someone who learned the teaching of the church for many years. And I am allowed to express my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. never did I say you can't express you opinions... i just get tired of debates that denegrate to such negativity and nonscensical statements like "the church is hosed." just b/c you have 12 years of catholic ed. doesn't mean you really understand what the catholic church teaches. in fact, given this statement by you, I'd say there was a fundamental MISunderstanding... As for addressing the meat of your post, the tools man has created for curing diseases are morally neutral. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with them. It is what is done with them that is in question here. And yes, God gave us the ability to use science to help others, but not in an unlimited sense. Just b/c we have the knowledge to do something doesn't mean there is an immediate licitness. There are ethics involved. In everthing involving the human person, there are ethics involved. That is why in every hospital, in every research protocol, in every descision involving medicine, there is an ethics board, an institutional review board, or something to ensure that the rights, welfare and safety of a human being are not thwarted or otherwise trampled on. And in this case, the case of conception in a test tube, I'm arguing it is an indignity to the human person. You're simply saying the Catholic Church is "hosed." How very cogent of you. And as a parting shot, I hope that parkinsons and every other debilitating disease is cured by placental stem cells and umbilical stem cells and other adult stem cell lines, which are just as promising as embryonic stem cells... so there. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Does that affect them in any way? If anything the children concieved in a sterile lab are more likely to be products of parents that are absolutely serious about their relationship and their ability to give a child a loving home. That is a very, very good question... and I don't think the answer is always an affirmative one... in some cases, parents are so desperate for a child they will do absolutely anything for one, such that that child ceases to be really "human" and becomes a commodity or somewhat of a possession. and those aren't always the right words... "i want a kid so bad to make me whole" you'll actually hear some say. I'VE heard some say in therapy sessions! Depending on the person and the context, such a statement can be a very pathological thing. Again, trying to have a kid at any and all cost is really not a good thing, IMO. I think the church is showing wisdom here. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

I think you'd agree bill that such conceptions are also not the "ideal" of which I spoke of earlier. I'm sure that God in His Heaven did not intend for you or I to be the product of sticky back seat fumblings... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

do we really need to let this discussion deteriorate this way? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

bill, i honestly struggle w/ this, fundamentally as a catholic. i don't doubt for one bit that they are wonderful parents. and if me or my wife weren't able to have kids, it would be heart rending for sure and I don't know if I'd be able to abide by this difficult teaching of this religion I espouse. but here's the kicker i think... and perhaps this is what i'll get flamed for the most... no one has a right to have children. a child is not a commodity. now, i'm not saying that is what these people you refer to are thinking, but biologically, if "nature" says you can't have kids, well, you can't have kids. and i don't think it's necessarily a good thing to do everything w/i our power to circumvent that, just b/c "we can." also, i think we have taken God so far out of the equation that it has made us very easy to do these sorts of things... like creat human life in a... PETRI dish! think of that! the indignity of that! or a test tube! a test tube baby! are we really created in the image and likeness of God? If so, our conception, where a unique, immortal, unrepeatable soul is infused into our bodies should not take place in some glass beaker somewhere in a lab. thanks. maybe we should propose this to the Gates foundation and to Warren Buffet. Think they'll go for it? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

That's consistent; good. Thanks for the explanation. Wendy W. actually, I got sidetracked... a better explanation is that children have the right to be conceived in the act of the loving embrace of their parents, in the procreative act of intercourse instead of in the sterile environment of the lab. This harkens back to the churches teaching of the two-fold ends of marriage and sex, babies and bonding... antiquated by todays standards, I know, but still maintained by the church nonetheless. Don't want babies? don't have sex, at least not when the wife is fertile. don't want to be bonded w/ your spouse? don't have sex... and, the two go together according to the church... you can't have one w/o the other... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

I appreciate the honest question. And I certainly have no problem w/ disagreements. Heck, if you don't like what Catholicism teaches, well you, Wendy are certainly one that's very respectful about it. And there are plenty of other churches out there that have belief systems that match one's unifying philosophy... anyway, onto the question... the stance on in-vitro is no-no. children have the right to be procreated in the very act of intercourse and not in a petri dish.("pro" because it is believed that in the act of conception, it isn't just stuff from the guy and stuff from the girl that comes together and forms a baby, but also a soul, a unique and unrepeatable soul that didn't exist before in creation is created by God at that very moment of conception.) as for the ones -the other children- that aren't implanted, well, they SHOULD be implanted, for they are children, at least in the mind of the church. and this brings a little caveat... they either are or they aren't... isn't this what it comes down to? the only thing that differentiates them from exutero, born children is what? growth and nutrition. if conception has occurred, and children exist, either in a petri dish or inutero, an environment should be created wherein those babies can grow and develop as is in accord w/ their nature. the "extras" shouldn't be destroyed, as is too often the case. what I'd really like to see happen is that these "unwanted" children, these unimplanted embryos that are most likely slated for destruction (death, if you believe, as I do, that they are children), be given to families who so desperately want kids but cannot for whatever reason cannot have them. (i can see the flames coming already... not from you wendy, you're one of the nicer ones...) I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

a latae sententiae excommunication doesn't need any formal pronouncement from the church. see here for a simple definition... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae basically, just by having an abortion or by assisting in an abortion, one incurs the act of being excommunicated, ipso facto. the church is just being consistent, as someone previously said. if human life begins at conception, which the catholic church beliefs, teaches, and professes, (although she is not the only entity who espouses this belief), then it follows that the intentional destruction of an embryo (human life) is wrong. embryonic stem cell research is the intentional destruction of embryos for the use of using their stem cells for research. it's quite easy to see the logic of their position. you may disagree w/ their fundamental assumptions, but that is another issue entirely. have we even begun to harness the power of adult stem cells? umbilical cord stem cells? placentas? No we haven't. and why is that? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

why not? his head is so shiny, the stars and moon would reflect off his head and light up the dark alley and POOF! no more dark alley. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

do you mean this tall guy? he's a tall guy! be careful, he might step on you. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...