Chris-Ottawa

Ron, Thank you for understanding my viewpoint. (PM Sent) To anyone else who reads this, I will be the one who will be below you, probably as far off to one side as I can be, flying a "predictable" 90 degree pattern. I'll be the one following the other canopies unless I'm the low man, in which I hope to hell you're following my pattern. This is just common sense. I simply can't understand how people can think it's OK to mix landing patterns, especially coming from people with so much experience. My intentions in posting from the beginning were to get people motivated to do something about this. We cannot pass it off as "another fatality". That's just going to make us wait until next time, and next time and next time etc... The skydivers are the only ones who can make a change easily. The DZ will get flak for enforcing landing zones, but I think this needs to be done. I know this would never happen, but say everyone got together on Saturday after the first incident and said we refuse to jump if the DZ won't enforce the no swooping rule during the boogie. I guarantee if everyone stuck together the DZ would have no choice. Obviously nothing was done as it happened again, mistake or not. Someone was still swooping when they weren't supposed to. I hope the DZ is making changes, and I hope other DZ's that require it, follow suit. Rest assured, I will be on the ground an any DZ if I don't feel safe. If I see canopies screaming by other canopies doing a "standard" approach, that's my right not to jump and I reserve that right. If you choose to jump, I'm not going to hold you back, but when something happens... Anyways, I'm just so upset that these events occurred in the first place. I am very passionate about skydiving and hope it never gets taken away from us. We may not like rules, that restrict what we do, but it's only going to take a few move incidents like these 2, for the FAA to say, can it, it's just too risky. If you enjoy the sport and want it to stay around, "WE" need to do something. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, Actually, I knew full well that there were multiple patterns. Depending on which side you're approaching from. And as I've been told by the experienced jumpers, there is a pattern for the swoopers and the standard landers. This is exactly how words get warped, I never said there was only one pattern, I never said Tom wasn't in a pattern. from the beginning, i said tom's pattern intersected the other one. I am posting based on the fact that these 2 paths crossed, mistake or not, how did this happen. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey Jose, I'm sorry that you were forced to write a post like that, but I think you've misunderstood my posts. I'm trying to figure out how the 2 patterns can meet up. I had no intentions of pointing blame and didn't want to come across that way. Honestly, if you spoke to someone at my DZ, they likely told you my personality. I'm not against swooping or anything like that. To be completely honest, I would have never posted in that thread if this had been one incident. The only reason why I posted is because 2 exactly same situations occurred at the exact same DZ just one day apart. I mean honestly, I don't know the exact details of either incident, but it seems like day 1 had a swoop resulting in a collision, and day 2 had a swoop resulting in a near miss and a hard landing. The reason I'm upset is because I can't possibly understand how the same thing can happen twice in the same weekend. Did the DZ not make strict rules to no swooping which was apparently the rule during the boogie. Honestly, I truly do apologize if my posts came off the wrong way as that is not at all what I wanted. I knew full well that posting in a sensitive thread like that could provoke someone. I don't feel that I've embarrassed myself. I'm trying to understand what happened and what can be done about it. I don't ever want to see this happen again and both incidents were unnecessary. Hope this helps, Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, Yes this thread did get out of hand. I'm posting again because it was moved to this new thread. I can't find where I said that Tom wasn't flying a pattern but I do see this quote from me: Maybe if you understood that by breaking the pattern I meant his pattern, that's incorrect. I meant that he's breaking into the "slower" pattern. I just want everyone to understand from my first post that I'm not talking about "this" specific incident. I'm upset that this happened in the first place as the 2 patterns should never come close to intersecting each other. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, You know, for following this thread from the beginning, you must have missed my comment about me not directly speaking about this specific incident. I didn't say anything that pointed blame, I may have used the scenario as an example, but I never said "Tom was not in a pattern". I stated that Tom apparently intersected another pattern. I never once said anything to the other person involved in the incident about who's wrong or right. If you missed my first post, I can see why you're thinking the way you are. As for my background in swooping...considering I have 55 jumps, do you honestly think I've even thought about swooping yet? I hope whoever you called told you that I am a conservative pilot and do as I'm told. I made no claims to my experience, and I even said a couple time that I'm a noob. Please avoid putting personal attacks in the thread, you can just as easily PM me. I'm not going any further on this. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Ok, I wasn't going to post this in here as I just sent a PM to GravityGirl, but you're welcome to think as you want. If you happened to read my first post, I made mention to note that I was not discussing this specific incident, but these types of incidents in general. I never made any mention of Tom or what Tom did right or wrong. Feel free to PM Bonnie, as I told her my opinion via PM because I felt it was inappropriate to post on the forums. It's nothing evil, I simply didn't feel right about posting how I feel about someone I never knew without seeing it first hand, hence why I'm discussing these incident in general. Last post...I will not be replying again as I don't want to start a feud. Sorry. Hope that clears things up. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey Skybytch, Sorry to keep posting in here, but I felt that it was pretty on topic. If you would prefer, I would love to discuss this further with you via PM. So I'll say no further until you reply. Gravity girl, Please read my post previous to this one. I spoke about the same thing. If I'm the lowest canopy, and I fly a downwind-90-crosswind-90-final approach...you are above me in the pattern which means I just set the pattern. So whether or not your swoop pattern starts at 10,000ft, involves 65 x 360's and a backloop, if there is a canopy lower than you...YOU BROKE THE PATTERN! I understand that not all canopies fly the same speed or sink the same, that's ok. I know exactly where you're coming from. I fly a Spectre 135, it can go down VERY quick, but I also have brakes and can slow it down to follow a slower canopy in the pattern. Point being, lowest canopy sets the pattern, anyone above who lands before them has broken the pattern. That was my point and as stated in my previous post...you're not flying "A" pattern, you're flying "THE" pattern. Either way, I think I'm going to stop posting in this thread but would be more than happy to continue with anyone via PM. I don't want to upset anyone or get the thread off topic as it is starting to get heated. I'm sorry if I've upset anyone up to this point, I'm just trying to state my thoughts from a noob's perspective. Thanks "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, I totally see where you're coming from but unfortunately I still don't see it the same as you. I stick to my shooting theory. The swooper was flying his pattern which conflicted with the "standard" pattern. I did however say that the swooper broke the pattern and intersected the other pattern. It's the same scenario exactly, you can't just choose to run your own pattern and expect everyone else to know what you're doing. On another note, I'm really happy to see some very experienced jumpers and swoopers alike, posting and agreeing that something has to change and it seems like separate areas is the best option. I don't think the governing bodies will step up as much as WE as skydivers can make an impact. The more and more swoopers that are coming up makes this sport seem more like running through a minefield on landing than a way of getting to earth. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Skybytch, I'm really not trying to fight you on this, we are both working towards the same goal, we simply have slightly different approaches. I can obviously tell that you are coming from the swooping side of things, and I'm coming from the, predictable pattern side. I know you've been where I am being that I'm a relatively new jumper, and tend to think that most people on here don't lie about their numbers. I appreciate that you are not simply lashing out at me for defending my position. I'm doing the same, I respect your view, but I also want to show the other side of it as I can see that not alot of low time jumpers will/are posting on a topic like this. I've got another scenario because I can see that you don't really see a problem with swoopers and non swoopers landing together. I agree we ALL have to cover our own asses, and I do...to a certain extent. When I enter the pattern, I know where the other canopies are around me, and I expect them all to follow the pattern and land in succession. How could I prevent someone above me, even If I did see them, from swooping and hitting me? THEY broke the pattern which is put in place to prevent such useless wastes of life that we've seen last weekend. And maybe my canopy is out of date, but last time I checked, it was pretty opaque. They can see easily below, I can't see up that easily. Consider this..I'm at my local shooting range standing in my "booth" shooting at targets. Some jackass comes up behind me, in lets say the loading area and starts firing downrange from where he's standing and kills me. Yes, it's my choice to be there and I assume the risk, and yes I have to accept whatever happens BUT!!! That person standing behind me was out of place...he was out of the pattern. If he followed the pattern, he would be in his booth firing downrange and I wouldn't be dead. I would love to hear from anyone who disagrees with me and my above scenario, why the hell do we have landing patterns in the first place if it doesn't matter for swoopers to "go out of place". I'm following the rules being safe...THEY are endangering me, by my choice or not. Skydiving is risky, I'm not going to deny that. But there is a difference between risk and unnecessary risk! This incident is also 50% the fault of the DZ. If there was a no swooping rule, obviously it was not being enforced. Again, BOTH of these incidents would have never happened. And in response to another post which I can't find quickly here, someone said that everyone was doing it so he just followed suit... Come on people, DO NOT try to use that as an excuse. Because everyone else was doing it makes it ok? NO! (I would use the example your parents always used about jumping off a bridge...but I know I'll get some smart ass replies to that. hehe). Consider this as well... Next time you're flying to the next big boogie, or to visit your aunt and uncle in whereeverland, you might want to watch your own ass for the other airplanes, that "might" be in the pattern. Based on the logic being seen here, that would be acceptable for a plane to "choose" not to fly the pattern, and still fly through it. Oh but wait, that wouldn't happen because there's a governing body, the FAA. I think USPA, CSPA, BPA etc should step up to the plate here. I know no skydiver wants to follow strict rules, but I really hope we can all agree on something that will stop these nonsense deaths, while still allowing us some flexibility on the rule. Does anyone have any statistics made up on how many injuries out of the last few years were preventable. If no one has this completed already, I'll gladly go through the Fatality list and find out how many hook turns, pilot responsible canopy collisions, swoops gone bad have occurred in since the list since it started. I know this number is not going to look pretty to all the swoopers out there because you and I both know ALOT of the fatalities are going to be in this area. (at least in the last 5 or so years anyways) "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, I agreed with all the comments posted in relation to my post except a few technicalities, Skybytch: I don't mean to nit pick here, but this seems to be making me responsible to make sure I note the canopies above me, if they are HP or not. It's pretty difficult to see through 135 sq ft of canopy, doesn't seem like much but it blocks a large portion of my view. On another note...you mentioned that a 270 is predictable??? Really, FOR WHO?? The regulars who know the jumper and canopy colours? I would sure as hell not want to be expected to watch for canopies anywhere up to 800 feet "above" me when I visit a DZ. I know this sounds like I'm ragging on you..I'm really not, just that process wouldn't make sense. In regards to the swoopers ego, you know, maybe I haven't met alot of swoopers and don't know all of their personalities. But, you conveniently left out my 2 other comments that went with that post. First, I said it had nothing to do with this incident, and second, I also mentioned that I don't know alot of swoopers. Depending on the circumstances...yes. I agree we choose to engage in a high risk sport, but I don't choose to have some jackass follow me out the door doing headdown while I'm on my belly at impact me. If we were doing RW and got kicked in the head and passed out, sure, that's an accident. FYI, it's also my choice to jump with an AAD or not. I know shit happens, and it can happen to anyone at anytime. But my point in this is the same as yours, "WE" need to be part of the solution. ANd there needs to be a solution, we can't simply let something like this pass on as "another swooping casualty". This can and hopefully will be corrected. I mean seriously, 2 collisions in 2 days....That's not Murphy's law. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Oh, 100% agreed, but I'm surprised for the fact that I've never heard of it in any of the threads where you might think it would come up. I think I'm the only one with a Spectre at my DZ, so I doubt to hear it there...I would more likely "feel" it. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Thanks everyone, this is exactly what I was looking for. Just some experiences with Spectres. I knew full well that a lineover that has half your canopy collapsed is not likely going to be flying nice and straight...Spectre or not. I'm really surprised about the crackers though. For those of you who have had one on a Spectre, do you think it was packing error or "it just happened". I mean, any canopy with a collapsed slider is gonna slam you, but I'm curious if it's packing technique or what. I simply propack mine, do absolutely nothing to the nose and wrap her up. Hse's been good to me, except I tend to have off heading openings once in a while. I think this is totally my fault as I use my knee to hold the canopy when I bring the tail around. I haven't checked it out yet, but next time I'm packing, I'm going to pay attention to the nose and see if I'm pushing an end cell outwards when I wrap the tail. It is flying great through the snivel, but once the slider drops to about 3/4 from the top and the canopy finally does it's final "pop", it tends to swing me one way or another, most often to the right. Could be body lean in the harness too. Thanks again! Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

The looks from everyone who's jealous? Just joking! The only problem I've seen is withhow tight the main tray is. I had an issue with towing my parachute, turns out the container was squeezing the dbag and holiding it there for a few seconds. That's not the container's fault entirely though. I'm light and it only happens on low speed H+P's. My container is sized for a 150 and I have a Spectre 135 in there, so I don't think it's too tight. Anyways, I have nothing but good to say and I've only really had the oppurtunity to close 2 other types of containers. One was the Sidewinder on the student rigs, and another earlier Jav so my experience is limited. Hope that helps! Only reason I'd consider buying something else at this point would be a Vector for the Skyhook. I'll be very excited to see some of the RSL equipped rigs from the other manufactures and if they perform as well. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, I realize full well that any mal can react differently. I posted the question more to find out what kind of mals Spectres had. I was actually curious one day and thought about trying to put my dbag in with intentional line twists just to see how a small canopy would act under line twists. I only wanted to do it to have the experience under controlled circumstances, but quickly decided that I shouldn't push my luck and involve any more risk than I have to. I'm sure I'll get line twists at some point anyways. The only other canopy I've had line twists on was the Manta 288, and I simply kicked them out while the canopy flew. I was mostly looking for something that would show the characteristics of the Spectre. Like "Spinetto" for the Stiletto. My question has no scientific backing, just curiosity. Like for example, if the Spectre gets line twists, does it normally keep twisting, or does it just fly straight while you kick them out. Again, i realize the type of mal determines this. And yes, that was the thread I was referring to. I realize a lineover can be very different from one to another, but that's more of a packing error. I realize that any canopy that is half collapsed is going to dive and spin. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey everyone, I read another thread a bit ago and it made me think of a question. The Spectre is known as a very gentle opening canopy. I was curious as to what type of malfunctions anyone has had on a Spectre and what it was like. Please include the canopy size, loading and your experience at the time. Then describe the mal and whether it resulted in a reserve ride or not etc. I'm just curious because I've never really came across anyone that has had a mal on a Spectre. I jump a 135 loaded at about 1:1 and I've never had so much as line twists (Knock on wood). I'm mostly curious if they tend to dive in a mal or if they fly nice and straight. Obviously the type of mal changes this, but I mean in a situation of severe line twists, will it fly straight or what? Thanks I know I have some weird questions, but I'm just very curious and like to know how things work. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

That's pretty crazy, so it was a JVX 87, loaded at what approx? You all had some fantastic swoops, and some nice spills too, but it just seems like he is going much faster than everyone else in that shot. I think I saw the riser stall you did. I got this video, and it could have been posted by you because you were talking about the riser stall. Were you the one near the 3/4 mark of this video, the second guy to bail in the little "chow" montage? Under a purple white and blue canopy? There is also another guy that seems to be going much faster as well. He was jumping a pure blue canopy with red stabilizers. Either way, wicked swoops. I'd love to make it to the event, not to compete, but just to watch. I'm more than happy not swooping. My cameraman femured on a jump I did with him, swooping doesn't really interest me. I would love to downsize to a tiny canopy so I can go do H+P's and screw around up high, but I have no desire to land one. I love flight, but wouldn't want to land a pocket rocket. I'm more than happy under my Spectre 135. I've got lots more to get out of it and many years of jumping. Thanks for the info Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, Thanks for the info. I'm looking at the video again and it looks to me like a solid white canopy. I don't see the selection.com logo on the bottom skin, and I don't see any stripes. I can't really make it out but there could be a red strip in the middle. It's the run that starts at 40 seconds into the video and he banks the canopy HARD. The selection.com canopy makes a run right after this run. I'm almost positive it's a solid white canopy, no logo, no stripes. Thanks Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey Guys and Gals, I'm curious about something I sawa in one of the CPC 2005 videos. I watched 2 different ones and in both, they show a guy doing some sweet moves under canopy. The guy is jumping what looks to be an extremely small, pure white canopy. It is not the one that says selection.com or whatever it says. The selection.com canopies also seem to be zipping along but this one just looks absurdly fast. The white selection.com canopy makes a pass right after this one and goes down hard after a distance attempt, and just before it, someone under a red and white canopy makes a distance run. The movie I was watching was from skydivingmovies.com and someone linked it in another thread. If you do a search for "Colorado 2005 CPC and GoFast Challenge" you will find the video. It was posted by Ian Drennan, one of the forum admins. The canopy I'm talking about is seen a few times throughout the video, but I think there's more than one. The one I'm specifically curious about is the one seen at 40 seconds into the video. I'm curious who that is, what canopy is that, what size is it, and how fast is he going there? The canopy looks like it is below 80sq ft for sure. Probably closer to 65-70ish if I had to make a guess. He is really motoring...and seems to pull off a 60 degree bank on that turn. Mental. I believe the same guy is seen in the other go fast video flying backwards with twisted risers for a large portion of the pond. Again, he is cruising there too. That may be the selecton.com guy though. Either way, both videos are sick, but I promised myself to try and avoid swooping, or anything to increase the risk of injury. I know some people will say that's lame, but I get more than enough thrill from exiting, freefalling and flying my canopy...just not close to the ground. I may try it a little, but I'm not going to buy a tiny cross braced canopy just for that. I'd need roughly a 55sqft canopy to get to the same loading as you guys. Thanks Chris EDIT: Mods, feel free to move this post to the swooping forum. I realize now that it may be better off n there. Thanks "When once you have tasted flight..."

You put way more effort into your reply then I ever would have. I have no need to post further in this thread, your post is irrelevant and you overreacted. I'll send you a quick PM though. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, This I know, I was just having a casual discussion. Like I said though, some people get really uptight about certain things. I get a kick out of how upset people get. It would be much different if I had told a newbie to do something stupid. Not that I'm not still a noob myself, but I'm honest with myself, know my areas of expertise and where I'm comfortable. I love using these forums for experience, but I wouldn't recommend them for "advice". I have asked for advice on here, but solely to get another perspective on a topic. It's all good, no hard feelings, Skydiving has helped me learn not to stress out about things. If I can manage to exit an aircraft, deal with mals, land safely etc...life is nothing. I don't let things bother me, I'll speak my mind, then I'm done with it. No need to stress out about it, just enjoy life, that's why I skydive. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Excuse me, but your profile says you have only 55 jumps. And you admit that you don't have any specialized expertise in this area. Therefore, in my opinion, you should refrain from making such uninformed comments as the ones above. Well, sorry to be completely wrong. I didn't notice that anyone exclusively stated their expertise in reserve manufacturing. It's my best guess as to why reserves are cheaper. And based on my first post and all the posts after, looks like I was fairly close. Since obviously your post clearly states that jump numbers = experience. How the hell do you know I don't have a degree in Aerospace Engineering or manufacturing? Oh, wait..I only have 55 jumps so I can't right? Think about your logic before posting smart ass comments. Be sure to note my choice of words such as "Reserves probably aren't" or "It might degrade" Man, some people on here have to lighten up. I'm totally sure that someone on here will read my post and buy a reserve as a main and go jump it without a second glance. Riiiiight! Maybe I'll change my profile to say I have 4100 jumps, people on here will do as I say then right? Have a good New Year! Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, I have an OJK, not tat that really matters, but it's fairly close in size. I bought a hook knife when I was at The Ranch in November. It is made by www.safetyknife.com. It's made of aluminum and seems to be pretty rigid. I read another forums and it was what made me spend the extra on aluminum rather than the plastic ones. Here are some pictures to see it in my leg strap pocket. I haven't decided between my leg strap or the mud flap yet. I hope to get it installed at the same time as my next repack. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

You can but it may not be the most pleasant experience. They are designed to open fairly quickly, they will sink quicker since it's a 7 cell and made of F111. It probably doesn't have a very desirable flare etc. It might degrade quicker due to the material and unexpected abuse. Hopefully someone with knowledge will post and enlighten us a bit more. The guy who uses a reserve as his main is 60 yrs old and has over 6000 jumps, not sure what his reason is, but I'll have to ask him now because you've got me thinking. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

My guess is the fabric. F111 vs ZP. F111 is much cheaper. Reserves probably aren't as highly reinforced as they do not have to endure opening after opening, it only has to handle a few. I do however jump with a guy that uses a reserve as his main, and it has almost 2000 jumps on it. I'd be interested in seeing some other reasons as well though, I'm sure my 2 are not the only reasons. Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey man, There is a lot of good advice being given here, but I think you don't need any of it. Well, I take that back, you will likely benefit from it...but not now. Check out this video. This is me on my 31st jump, notice what happens when I dump. http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6869511102803883749&q=skydiving+backflips After getting this video, this no longer happens. You have to always be aware of your legs and spare hand. I've learnt that I can stop that spin by cupping my hand or changing my leg positions. I can now put one arm on my chest and compensate with my legs. It comes in time when you're more aware of your body position. If you read my log book, all through AFF I was trying to use my legs and it was causing problems, now I've learnt to pay attention to the rest of my body, not just where's that hackey. You may also notice a big difference with a different jumpsuit. I bought an RW suit with booties and I LOVE it. I have tonnes more control than I do without. Trust me, this will all come with time. Hope this helps, don't fret it. Chris EDIT: I just rewatched my video and I never really payed attention to my legs but without really trying, i'm using them to start and stop my turns. Look specifically at my last turn before crossing over my instructor, I really hammer my leg out to stop the turn. I don't remember doing that. Like I said, it'll come in time and you'll notice that you'll get much more comfortable in the air. "When once you have tasted flight..."