Alias

Fair enough. The example with the dead prisoners are documented with photo's - One was Prisoner No. 153399 Google it and I'm sure you will see comments on the court tanscripts as I did. Again, I have no problem with "giving the enemy hell" but SOME procedures should be followed and examples given during the Article 32 hearing against Chip Frederick shows they weren't: In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called “O.G.A.,” or other government agencies—that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees—was brought to his unit for questioning. “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison’s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, “and therefore never had a number.” Crap like this seems unexceptable to me - If these certain detainees's pose such a threat, drugem and lets hear the truth - torture? Not sure about that Carpe Diem

Thanks - I've seen that. I speaking of specific footage catching the plane coming in. Just not out there for the public - if out there at all Carpe Diem

The majority of the "prisoners" ,several thousand, including women and teen-agers—were civilians, many of whom had been picked up in random military sweeps and at highway checkpoints. They fell into three loosely defined categories: common criminals; security detainees suspected of “crimes against the coalition”; and a small number of suspected “high-value” leaders of the insurgency against the coalition forces Remeber that not everyone in Abu were "terrorists", many were innocent civilians "swept up".... I'm just playing devils advocate here. We do need to maintain a standard. I'm just not hip on actions like breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees, beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair, allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell and sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick..There is the battered face of a prisoner and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood. The rest os the BS about the sex, Koran and dogs barking, nakedness is bullshit - who cares? Got no problem there ..I'd just like to see some sort of procedures here instead of a "do what we want to these people who would cut out heads off with butter knives". Remember, some might be/are innocent civilians. I know, war is a bitch Carpe Diem

Spit coffee on the monitor - out my nose! AND was worth it! That rocked! Carpe Diem

I'll agree to a certain extent - however, I'm coming to the conclusion that the role for the US Armed Forces should not be Global police/rescue/enforcemnet Carpe Diem

She's a bright one!

Maybe Kallend should be - you can be a Star Trooper Carpe Diem

Another 80 billion in the pot today bringing us to almost a quarter of a trillion dollars and over a thousand deaths and counting. I forgot to mention the many thousands seriously wounded- I think the cost is high now on both issues. I understand the signifigance of war - but not to liberate, chase UN santions and blindly follow a terrorist trail that ends up going no where at this expense. I whole heartily agree with you on Rawanda. Another example of why we are in the middle east and not africa - oil. Which is important to us. I'm not tryingto say it's not. Just trying to make the clear point that it was the major motivation and the other reasons, however noble in concept, have been window dressing some still cling to with Nationalistic pride. I guess I'm pisssed about being treated like a sheep. Carpe Diem

If the motivation was oil we'd have let the UN lift the sanctions and opened the spigot. Nobody thought that a war with Iraq would stabilize the dollar going in either. I think the real reason was geopolitics and ties to terrorist affiliate organizations, including a pattern of interest in WMD. Making a democratic sandwitch of Iran was an ambitious goal but the long term alternative of letting the region fester would have been disasterous. Time will tell if it pays off. I see it a bit different. The first gulf war was about oil, not just Kuwait. Kuwait was part of it, but protection of Saudi oil was the goal. The need to dominate oil from Iraq is also deeply intertwined with the defense of the dollar. Its current strength is supported by OPEC's requirement (secured by a secret agreement between the US and Saudi Arabia) that all OPEC oil sales be denominated in dollars. This requirement is currently threatened by the desire of some OPEC countries to allow OPEC oil sales to be paid in euros. Iraq switched to Euro's, we invaded, switched it back. Call me crazy, but then I read Venezuala considering "leveraging" by taking profits in Euro's vs $. It is coincidental a coup attempt the following month kept that from happening. http://www.rice.edu/energy/publications/docs/TaskForceReport_Final.pdf Good read on why we are so concerned about the oil in Iraq ans Iran. Sorry, but I see much more evidence pointing to the ($ and oil) scenario, then I do WMD and terrorist connections. I voted for Bush, support our troops, have been supporting one troop in the 160th SOAR since before we invaded. I bought the WMD, Terrorist, Liberate show as it was presented. Then was made aware of others thinking. Researched and have concluded that I was mislead in my beliefs about this war. As I mentioned before. If it was presented that it was an issue pertaining to US securing energy and protecting the dollar, I might think differently about this...I might be behind it It certainly is not cut and dry Carpe Diem

I'm wondering if you would still think a "stable", "democratic" Iraq is worth the expense of US deaths and funds? After the dust settles that is. Where next with this mentality? Or can we agree the main motivation was oil? Or even stabilizing the dollar for that matter. If the administration would admit to this type of reasoning, I might have to agree with war. I still feel mislead Carpe Diem

So let me get this striaght.... Snopes is BS because you say so? Oh..sorry to insult you but, yo'll have to also argue with: Armstrong, David. "Police Label Gang Story a Hoax." The Boston Globe. 23 January 1994 (p. 31). Bell, Ted. "Urban Myth That Won't Go Away." Sacramento Bee. 25 March 1996 (p. B2). Bunch, Michael. "Technology Aided Spread of Terrifying Hoax." The San Diego Union-Tribune. 4 October 1993 (p. A2). Fernandez, Maria Elena. "An Urban Myth Sees the Light Again." The Washington Post. 15 November 1998 (p. B2). Ellis, William. "Just In!: Lights Out Gang Initiation." FOAFTale News. November 1993 (pp. 5-6). Gordon, Craig. "Cops Shed Light on a False Fear." Newsday. 7 December 1993 (p. 31). Greenwood, Tom. "Commuting: To the Uninitiated, Flashing Headlights Story Just a Hoax." The Detroit News. 5 November 1998 (p. D14). Hamburg, Jay and Gina Fann. "No Truth Found in Two Urban Legends." The Tennessean. 5 November 1998. Huard, Ray. "Frightening Tale Went Around City Offices in a Flash." The San Diego Union-Tribune. 10 November 1998 (p. B1). Kinner, Derek. "Rumors Stirring Up NE Florida." The Florida Times-Union. 10 November 1998 (p. B1). Kwiatkowski, Jane. "Gang Rumor Causes Alarm in Buffalo." The Buffalo News. 2 October 1993. Kuehner, John. "It's a Fax and Untrue, Police Say." The Plain Dealer. 15 March 1996 (p. B1). Lenhart, Jennifer. "'92 Case May Have Spurred Gang Story." Houston Chronicle. 24 September 1993 (p. A21). Martin, Greg. "Gang Initiation Rite Involving Headlight-Blinker Killer is Only Legend." Augusta Chronicle. 21 November 1998. Calgary Herald. "Police Debunk Headlight Rumour." 25 November 1998 (p. B3). Los Angeles Police Department. "Press Release: Friendly Gesture Gets Man Killed." 6 November 2004. The Ottawa Citizen. "What the Gargoyle Heard." 28 November 1998 (p. B4). United Press International. "Driver Shot in Rumored Gang Fashion." 4 October 1993. And I guess it was proven that the shooter in your FLA example was a gang member? Assumption? Just curious since you are the self proclaimed authority on this. I have no ill feelings towards LEO at all. Just thought I'd poke a hole where I saw one coming. The cop is a mess. He seems like a loose canon. Two dead is the proof. Stick up for him if you want. But a loser he is. And I do agree that they should be treated equally with other offenders. Shouldn,t you get back to grading papers? Carpe Diem

Lets define "grasp" after seeing this bit of homework http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/lightout.asp Face it, this cop, like all cops are human. He seems to have some serious issues Carpe Diem

Killer deal you got there with the railroad retirement - I thought the max for 401K contributions was 10% or the annual contribution limit is $14,000 for 2005 Maybe I'm incorrect Carpe Diem

I can still run fast with a larger then average gonopodium Carpe Diem

If it turns out that North Korea did not cheat after all, the prospects for a new denuclearization agreement would improve, because the Bush administration could no longer argue that Pyongyang is an inherently untrustworthy negotiating partner. At any rate, to break the diplomatic deadlock, the United States urgently needs a new strategy. Carpe Diem

Always a complicated issue. But since Saddam was not responsible for 9/11, The UN and the US have not found WMD, I guess the only real thing we can hang our hat on _is_ that Saddam is gone. But I am quickly thinking this huge US sacrifice is not the role we should be playing in the world....because the list of "saddams" is very long in regards to the lack of human rights No confusion! I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! Just starting to doubt our leaderships ability Carpe Diem

Because there were no video cameras in the area. The only cameras war a time lapse camera set up on the Pentagon. Contrary to popular belief, there are no Hotels near the Pentagon except for the Sheridan up the hill from Arlington Cemetary at Ft. Meyers (iirc) and only one gas station. Everything else is over in Crystal City. Why would any hotel or gas station have their cameras pointed into the air? I have seen many pictures of the Pentagon after the crash and their is debris from any airplane everywhere. You also have to remember, the Pentagon isn't built like a standard office building. Even the windows are designed to hold up to an explosion. What about VDOT cams? Wash Blvd - 395? Crash was near the heliport which I would think would be under vid security, among other areas. Being the Pentagon, you would think there would be security cams all over the place.... But you points are valid to me Carpe Diem

I will NEVER thank ANYONE for starting a war. Period. They started it, so they have to deal with it. I really don't care if it's painful for them. Max The troops on the ground who are paying the price did not start this war. The war was started by the lying Commander in Chief and his lying cronies. As much as it pains me to say it.....the above statement seems to have merit...what a shame Carpe Diem

There are no warlike people, just warlike leaders --Ralph Bunche Permanent good can never be the outcome of untruth and violence. --Mahatma Gandhi Example is not the main thing in influencing others, it is the only thing. --Albert Schweitzer People prefer to follow those who help them, not those who intimidate them. --C. Gene Wilkes Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. --Frank Outlaw Carpe Diem

That's what I wanted to know. Sorry to hear about your friend... I read about that person. He may have died in that plane, but probably not because it slammed into the Pentagon. Care to elaborate on how he died in your opinion. And I'm still curious on why there are no video's, or stills of the flight coming in.....plenty of sources to have documented it. Very interesting to me Carpe Diem

How do we know that the plane and passengers ever physically existed...? Does anyone here actually KNEW the victims??? Jake Jacoby was the COO of Metrocall. He died on Flight 77. He was a regular shooter at my range - many there went to the funeral. I'd met him many times it happened Carpe Diem

oh it happened, but can you find any photos' or video of the plane flying in at all? Went right over a major highway with traffic cams, hotels and gas stations with security cams pointing in that direction were immediately confiscated by FBI It happened, but why not one shot of it coming in from any of these sources? Kinda fuels the conspiracy freaks Carpe Diem

Follwed this a while back on another site debate. I believe it happened - among othe reasons, I met a widow of one that perished on the flight in. But found it curious that there is no footage available. No security cams, no VDOT, no gas station cams, hotel cams etc. One point brought up on the other debate that my limited research on the web could not find at all. Just found that curious Carpe Diem

If you actually read my original post, you'll see that I drew the line where the founding fathers (you know, they guy who wrote the bill of rights?) drew the line. It covered infantry weapons. Today that would mean at least M16s and M4s. I also made it clear that it might, though not positively, cover SAWs and other squad level machine guns. I never said it covers an M2, I and I stated that it does not cover crew served weapons. You do realize that the M777 is a cannon carried by a helicopter or towed by a truck, right? Does that sound like "infatry" to you? Do you understand the meaning of "militia?" In case you're not clear, I drew the line on this side of RPGs, so that they were NOT included anymore than a Howitzer or a Stinger. (you could've called them stingers and howitzers; it's not like those numbers are rare, or that anyone who didn't know couldn't google them) That'd be nice. I'm getting tired of having to repeat myslf because simple quesitons aren't answered. Dude, you have issue's with sarcasm. Which makes debating/learning and trading idea's with you like dealing with a child. A mature approach might help get your point accross better, with me at least btw, "infantry weapons" cover more then rifles and machine guns. Missles, rifle launched entry munitions and morters are but a few...at least with the modern infantry....considered by Jane's Carpe Diem