Trent

Right, I just did a quick and dirty count from the ant-war http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ website. From the 1252 first casualties listed on their table (military and civilian), 584 were civilians likely killed by insurgents. The rest were either police or military deaths (US and insurgent). Again, it was quick and dirty. So just out of those numbers, where is the world outcry at the fact that the insurgents are killing civilians left and right? Oh, hello again!

Okay, all BS aside... I need to know if you really think that so I can ignore all future posts by you. Like Josh said, if all us bloodthirsty American pigs wanted to do was kill people, there wouldn't be very many people left in Iraq. Did you even read my post? Did you bother to go hunt down the unedited/less edited video, or do you beleive everything that is put in front of you? I see how easy it is for someone to control your view of reality. Oh, hello again!

I've been watching this thread for a while now and I just wanted to point out a couple of things. 1. The original post had a link to a completely retarded video that was clearly edited to suit what the producer wanted to show. Had you seen the original (I have) you'd know that it is WAY more than what you saw. It is clear that these guys are up to no good. It is clear that the apache crew repeatedly asks if it is okay to engage. They did not just show up with frothing mouths and unleash on "poor farmers". 2. As for the shooting of the wounded guy... For all I know watching the real video... he could have been rolling out to get a shot off at the Apache. Maybe he was wounded, but it isn't clear what he's doing. He's got enough life left to roll out from the truck and certainly enough to pull a trigger. Now a couple of questions: So shooting an injured man is wrong? If someone fired a 3 shot burst at an enemy and the first shot hit him in the gut and the following 2 in the chest and neck, is it a war crime? I mean, after the first shot, he's wounded, right? Or how about a bomb where the concussion incapacitates the target, but the shrapnel kills them. Are they considered wounded, and has another crime been comitted? It sounds like you either think they should be fighting wars with paintball guns or the only "legal" killing in war should be single shots that instantaneously kill the enemy. And I've seen it mentioned a few times that people don't like that (in this case) American soldiers seem to value the lives of the Iraqi fighters less than their own. OF COURSE THEY DO!! Come on... the very act of war is a statement that one side's lives are worth more than the others. We don't send troops in to die in equal ratios to the enemy. It sounds to me like many people here just don't accept what a war is. I'd bet that not too many people LIKE war, but understand what happens and what must be done when one starts. I'm not military and have nothing but respect for those who serve and have served. I'll never know what it is like to fight a war, thankfully. Thanks guys. Oh, hello again!

Of course, there will be MORE than enough people here to have a good time and par-tay. Hey, at the very least, WE'LL be here!! Oh, hello again!

As you've seen below, Skydive Spaceland in Houston will be hosting the 2004 Texas State Record 150 Ways on August 20-22. In order for an event of this magnitude to be successful, we need any and all voluteers to help with various things like spotting jumpers landing off, going to get these jumpers, ferrying jumpers from all corners of our 136 acres back to the hangar, and registration. The more volunteers we have, the more often they will be able to sneak in a jump on any of the 7 aircraft, including the Skyvan. If you'd like to help (it's fun and has "perks") please contact Karen Tucker at ltucker@icsi.net with "TSR" in the subject line. Yes, we need YOU. Oh, hello again!

The 2004 Texas State Record will be held at Houston's Skydive Spaceland on August 20-22nd. We will have a full fleet of aircraft including 6 Super Otters and Arizona's Super SkyVan. Jumps will be organized by captains Jack Berke, Tom Jenkins, Jim Jenkins, Rob Laidlaw, Harry Hopkins, Bill Legard, Ryan Smith, and Larry Henderson. Video will be provided (with stills) by Brett Thomas, Glenn Payne, Josh Hill, Perry Perkins, Eric Boyd, and 2 others TBD. We plan on doing 15 jumps total, 5 Friday, 6 Saturday, and 4 on Sunday. Oxygen will be provided as all exits will be above 15,000 ft. Jumping begins at 8AM each day, and jumpers are released at 4PM on Sunday. The total event cost is $600 and a $175 deposit is required if you plan to attend, with the balance due on August 1. For any news, updates, or to apply for consideration please see http://www.texasstaterecord.com. THANK YOU Oh, hello again!

You talking about the evil masterplan to have every Chinese citizen jump simultaneously to throw the earth off axis? Oh, hello again!

Those are the funniest 2 replies I've read in a while! Anyway, I agree with Ron here... lets get rid of our dependence on oil and let the middle east realize that its luck with being born on top of oil has run out. Hell, they'd probably fight us because we took our dollars elsewhere. Bill's ideas are great... now we need to make it happen. I really wish that Americans could move as a collective sometimes to get things like this moving! I'm down. Oh, hello again!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/19/nader.kerry/index.html Thought some of you might like this article. Don't vote for the candidate you like the most, just vote against Bush!! Funny stuff. Oh, hello again!

Uh uh uh... we are there by "invitation" as your logic showed in the other thread. And it IS a tragedy if it were an innocent wedding party that was blown to bits. It is also mind-numbing that anyone would be having a wedding in the wee hours of the morning, firing weapons into the air, when they are pretty much guaranteed to have coalition aircraft nearby. Either way you look at it, I'm sure al-jazeera can find witnesses to each and every death in Iraq that will SWEAR that the Americans did it. So I'll be as skeptical of that as you are the American statements. Oh, hello again!

Fortunately, you didn't get to grade my thesis. Do you really read any posts in their entirety? Only in ONE of the instances you mentioned was there a significant 3rd party helping out. In any case.... So to use your examples... it would be fair to say that even in instances of rather small (% of population-wise) movements to overthrow a dictator/government, intervention by a 3rd party is only acceptable if they are invited. So we can say that the ex-patriated Iraqis and anti-Saddam Iraqis DID invite us to overthrow Saddam, and using your logic... that's acceptable. The reason I even argue this is because I've noticed you are fond of stating that we are "uninvited" in Iraq. Well, yes, some people don't want us there... and the polls may or may not be right... but I don't doubt that a lot of Iraqis want us out. But I also understand that there is a large minority of people (maybe larger than we think since polls can be manipulated, as nacmac pointed out) who DO want us there to stabilze the country so that they can rebuild a fair and representative government. So here's the original question... for the last time: How does a population ask to be liberated? What percentage of them asking would be enough that we should care? And your answer so far has been more or less: by fighting against their own government. You have no response as of yet to the 2nd part. So, since there WAS factions fighting against Saddam from WITHIN Iraq... there was an open invitation to overthrow his regime. By your rationale, we were "invited". Just an aside question to help me understand your overall stance on things: Would you describe yourself as an isolationist? What is a justifiable reason for a country to go war, besides direct self-defense? Oh, hello again!

I read the book that said France got involved for a number of reasons, including: - A desire to have a victory over Britain (the other big kid on the block at the time). - Get "revenge" for losing the most territory ever in 1763. - Securing trade with the West Indies and fishing off of Newfoundland. France was no friend to the colonists prior to the revolution, but getting Britain out was more important. Which book did you read? You mean how he waged a guerilla war against Batista with the help of disgruntled government military leaders, students, and citizens? Or how the US cut off Batista from weapon sales and urged him to leave office peacefully? Or did you mean how Castro allied Cuba with the USSR AFTER he siezed power? A lot of what I've read frames this event as a mainly political movement supported by Khomeni's followers. Doesn't look like they got too much help. Russia had some interest, but wasn't that excited about seeing an Islamic fundamentalist state set up, besides they had some sweet deals with the Shah's government. While it wasn't necessarily peaceful, a combination of world pressure on DeKlerk, strikes, work stoppages, riots, politically motivated violence, and voting seemed to get rid of the apartheid based government in SA. So, what's your point Kallend? How about you just humor my non-college-professor intellect and answer my original question? But hey, I'm only a young American... what do I know? And even if I do my homework, unless I read the books that YOU tell me to... I'm being lied to, right? Oh, hello again!

Correct. I don't like it because it's completely unreasonable. Does the UN have a "Help For Removing Brutal and Oppressive Regimes" hotline? I'll take the for what we all know it means. You're right... so polls are out. Hmmmmm, so my question still stands... HOW DOES A PEOPLE INVITE ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP THEM OVERTHROW A BRUTAL GOVERNMENT? - The UN "Help Us" hotline is out, they wouldn't listen anyway. - Polls won't work because they only have one choice when they answer. The only thing I can think is that sometimes, a country or group of countries have to stand up and do what they think is best. Not everyone will agree with what is done, but when will they ever? And since no one has come up with a feasible answer (thanks for trying though, Nac, miss ya!), I guess we can stop with the BS about how the US went into Iraq "uninvited". Right? Oh, hello again!

So it's acceptable for South Korea to invade North Korea since, technically, they're still at war? Or how about Saddam's army firing on US and other UN nations' aircraft during the No Fly rules, is that not an act of war? Just curious... Still waiting for an answer to the question... how does a people invite another nation to topple their government? And also, if a poll shows the majority of Iraqis want the US out, is it okay for us to abandon the large minority who want our help? Oh, hello again!

So we should have asked the Iraqis in a poll if they wanted our help to get Saddam out? I bet that would have worked.... you guys have got it nailed! But wait... if the majority wants us out and a large minority want us there... should we abandon those guys? And as for crushing resistance??? Come on... would you call the Nazis in WW2 a "resistance" since we invaded their turf? I bet a poll of the Germans at that time would have wanted us out too. Anyway, still waiting on an answer.... how can countries ask for regime change? Oh, hello again!

An active resistance? Like the kurds? Or was that not enough? Or how about places with dictators so brutal that all resistance is crushed viciously before it gets started? I'll ask again, in case anyone has a good answer. How does the people of a country ask that their government be removed? What percentage of the population should ask? Should they vote on it at the risk of death? Come on... someone has to have a better reply than that. Oh, hello again!

Just curious... how does a population ask to be liberated? What percentage of them asking would be enough that we should care? Since Saddam was in charge, and spoke for his country... should he have been the one to ask for liberation? There have been Iraqi groups living in exile that have been asking for Saddam's removal for a long time. Does that count? Oh, hello again!

What a jackass... "Vote for who we tell you, or go to hell" - Bishop Sheridan "Vote for who we tell you, or die. You're going to hell anyway" - Al-Qaeda Oh, hello again!

Yeah, he's a floaty beeeotch. Skinny bastard! Oh, hello again!

They didn't in the beginning... dunno if they do now or not. Oh, hello again!

With my teammates, we typically fly in the 145-150 range... sit or head down. We fly the same speed pretty much all the time, unless we're going flat or purposely slowing down. The bigways in Perris had a purposely FAST fallrate, for a couple of reasons. It's easier to fly only legs when you're cruising at 165 or so. It also almost eliminates the possibility of going low. Faster fallrates on bigways give us more airflow to work with which helps stability. All these speeds are from my pro-track in TAS. Oh, hello again!

I accidentally bought 2 copies so I'll sell you my second one if you want. www.airzonextreme.com is selling them. Weather is total ass, and we had a HUGE weekend planned. Oh, hello again!

So no response or thoughts from the usual suspects on this essay? Oh, hello again!

This is what I'm talking about. I hear from someone's post that there was a nice demonstration by muslims against terror, but OF COURSE the vast majority of arab news outlets would rather replay the murderers' message and explain that it was because of the abuse in prisons. It's almost like... they don't want there to be a reasonable peace process.... go figure. Oh, hello again!

Just got my copy of the Artistic DVD of the 2003 Nationals from AirZoneExtreme. It's well done and definitely worth studying for anyone thinking of competing in the next few years. Besides, you can see us on there! Just ignore round 6 though.... There's also quite a few other DZ.Com members and their teams on there, Jank, Gravity Rats, Methane, etc. Check it out. Oh, hello again!