mpohl

People never learn and the lessons of history need to be re-learned every 50-100 yrs. For example, if it were any other way, albeit on a different time scale, this board could do away with the Incident forum. Give up all hope. /M

Suffice it to say that my country, the EU, objects to torture, imprisonement w/o due process, or, for example, undue collection of vast amounts of personal data. Can you say the same about your country? P.S.: Martin Niemoeller: "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.” The EU is pretty interesting. A bunch of independent nation states (like the 50 nifty Unired States); who are guaranteed freedom of movement (much like the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the US Constitution), freedom of trade and service (like interstate commerce). They even have a unified currency now (like the greenback dollar). And unified policies. Isn't it amazing that it only took a couple hundred years for Europe (the most advanced and civilized of all continents) to start doing what the US has been doing? Maybe in another couple of hundred years, there will be fredom of speech, freedom against unwarranted searches and seizures, etc...

I am as American as you are. However, I was born in the European Union (EU). Does that help? No. I want to know from which country you choose to insult us.

I have more skydives than you! I have instructed more students than you! I have packed more reserve-saves than you! Does that help? What difference does it make to the argument at hand as to whether I have 10 or 10,000 skydives? Touche. You seem awfully brave insulting us while hiding behind the anonymity of no profile.

Fourhundred+ posts after your initial contribution, the take-away lesson is that PIGS WILL LEARN TO SING before any of the hardcore Americans will ever admit to anything being remotedly wrong in this glorious country of theirs. Remember the Titanic? P.S.: Good news is that according to a recent study, by 2020 fifteen % of the American population will be foreign-born. So there is some hope for reason and rationale.

Thanks, popsjumper, for sharing this story. It really captures what being a skydiver is about these days. Kudos to all involved...!

Think Freeflier29; that gentleman was too much even for this benevolent audience. Now, do you really want him to represent the US (or anybody other than himself) in Iraq? I think not!

Just from reading this thread, I have to conclude that, A SKYDIVER IS A SKYDIVER'S WORST FRIEND! Here we have ppl cheering the shut-down of a dropzone, and opposing the opening of a new dz. What a sad state of affairs!!! If I hadn't bailed out alright, I certainly would not want to join this clique-ish, political "sports" environment, as a newcomer.

Billy, THAT IS SO LAME! SO YOU! Obv. Ben and Cary know how to make a dime off of skydiving and keep everybody happy. Including up-jumpers who pack in an A/C, clean environment. And instructors, who get to confidently jump up-to-date equipment. Please compare w/ your favorite dz. Maybe ASC/Skyride affiliation should be a prerequisite? P.S.: Just for the record: I don't know Ben or Cary from squat. But I have worked at their dzs on occasion; it's been professional! (I have never been desperate enough to depend on skydiving for a living). Chris Needels is the only USPA Executive Director to have been a Golden Knight, it's not a requirement. When Jerry Roulard was hired as Executive Director Chris Needels had also applied for the job and didn't get it. Just trying to keep it real. How about one requirement: Anybody that has worked for, or operated a DZ owned by Ben Butler and Cary Quattrochi, or being involved with Skyride, Thrill Planet, etc... are automatically disqualified from consideration for the position. That would be a good start. Edited to add: Some good people that have worked for them in the past and have since renounced and regretted doing so, and are actively against them, could be considered....

How much does it pay: $$$, benefits, annual allowance of free jumps at USPA DZs? Please reply in full confidentiality to dropzone.com..

RIP, Pell City: 2002-2007. Today we revisited Pell City for the first time since laying off of skydiving some 1.5 years ago. Suffice it to say that myself and my wife Angelika were probably the earliest instructional staff that dedicated every weekend to growing Pell City as a dropzone. (That is, of course, only after discounting for Sears, Rob, Anne and, later, Laura in those days!). Today was very gratifying in seeing, for example, guys like Thud and Ken, who had 50+ jumps when we were involved, having grown into their own right as instructors; and being able to convey the thrill and excitement of skydiving to the next generation. /Matthias

BillY: the only additional insight I can offer at this time: "If you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy!" Think about it. I'm not slamming Rob's ability to manage a DZ, but I do think the airport soured on the whole skyride deal. I jumped at Pell City for a long time, from 1995 to just after skyride took over a few years ago. I have made a few jumps there since then, but mostly for demo practice and one tandem involving a group from the deaf school. Not once in all that time before skyride took over did anybody say the airport was having problems with us, even going back a couple owners. I was reminded of another thing yesterday while at a birthday party for a deaf friend's one year old girl. His neighbor is a private pilot in the area. I was wearing a skydiving demo team shirt, and he started asking me questions. I'd never met him before, but we got to talking about skydiving and flying. Apparently he knows all about the problems the Pell City airport and other private pilots have had with the way the DZ's pilot handled the jump plane there. He even witnessed himself, dangerous maneuvers by the jump plane pilot. He even used the word "dangerous" in describing the pilot's behavior. Now, I didn't get a chance to go further into details so I don't know how recent his experience is, but I DO remember that the FAA went out there and had the entire DZ staff out in the field to talk to them about their operations a few years ago. And of course, there was the business license, or lack thereof, oversight where the police showed up asking for proof. When they couldn't provide proof, they were shut down until one was obtained! The manifest lady at the time lied her ass off to the cops "oh we have a business license! it's at the Cedartown DZ in the file cabinet, we can fax it over!" Fact is, there never was one. Cops don't like being lied to. In all the years I had been skydiving at Pell City BEFORE skyride took it over, there were never problems like that. Maybe the DZ has improved the way they do business recently, but obviously they convinced the airport management otherwise. If they set up at Prattville, I hope for skydiving's general image, they don't do the same bullshit there. Simply put, we are running out of airports to skydive at, and I do not want skydivers and jump pilots being assholes and screwing themselves out of airport access due to their stupidity. It has also happened to the Yazoo City Skydivers DZ in Mississippi as outlined in Parachutist. Good luck in Prattville, hope you guys learned some lessons along the way and be nice down there.

You are still a punk! And I and Angelika will show up during the Demolition Boogie. Heck, we have enough money on account to jump w/o parachute!

As I understand it they are having a "Demolition Boogie" during the last week of operation at Pell City. Why not go there and take all your frustration out with a sledge hammer; it should be quite therapeutic and cleansing for your soul. Also, on another note: if Ben and Carey hadn't set up ASC, at the present time, Georgia would be left with Skydive Atlanta only. Also, if they hadn't set up ASC, there would have been no disgruntled instructors to start Skydive the Farm. Ever considered that? LMAO... staff-wise and jumper-wise, maybe... but ASC is still saddled with that "Skyride" tag, and that just leaves a bad taste in everyone else's mouths. You can blame Ben and Cary for all the shit they started and still perpetuate. I still think USPA did the right thing kicking them out.

Along the same line, and respectfully, let's note that Danny Page is also still doing duty at Skydive Atlanta. So is "Jack Sheehy" who might or might not have regained mobility, let alone being able to skydive. Having said that Rob and Laura are a class act! I, for one, wish them well in Prattsville. P.S.: Regarding any comments by Billy Boy, in this thread or others. Problem is: DUDE WONT LISTEN!

Let me chime in here. Let me also preface that I am no longer actively involved in GA skydiving for the better part of two years. HOWEVER, at least, as of two years ago, ASC had hands-down the most professional and up-to-date student AFF and tandem gear in Georgia (and Alabama). PERIOD. And I have jumped and instructed at all three remaining dz's in Georgia. So has my wife. Both of us are (were) riggers also. P.S.: I would hope that by now this is a non-issue as hopefullly SDA and Farm have caught up.

Also make sure to check your balls regularly. So that you have something to hang...testicular cancer is the most curable of all cancers, w/ a five-year survivial rate of 95%, if detected early! It is also the most common solid malignency in males, age 18-40. This should help to stimulate the self-exam: http://www.icr.ac.uk/everyman/rachelgetsfruity/flash.html

I recommend Paul van Dyk, "Global". DVD + CD is $14.99 at amazon.com; at that price you can't go wrong! Also, if you are seriously interested in making sense of Trance, Eurodance, Acid, Tribal, Ibiza, Epic, Nu Style, Goa, etc. etc., I suggest visiting http://www.di.fm/edmguide/edmguide.html

These days, teachers are note even allowed to hug a 4- or 5-yr old for repercussions of sexual abuse. What does that imply about society? P.S.: I have nappy-headed asshair!

Well, suffice it to say that CIA personnel involved in "extraordinary renditions" is now subject to arrest warrants thru Interpol in 150+ countries. Prosecutors in Germany, Italy, and Spain are very actively pursuing this. In my opinion, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld all need to face an International Court of Law for crimes against humanity. In time they will. Mark my words! Being fed up with a perceived lack of credibility in one entity will often drive people to listen to their opponents with an undue vigor. Politicians love this and make use of the response constantly. When everyone is covered in a dried layer of dirt from all the mudslinging fights gone by, the latest rounds are just comical.

I LOVE IT! Make it $5 or $6 bucks a gallon. Or $12. Walking and bike-riding 20 mi a day is good for you. Also cuts down on morbidly-obese Americans. If you cant get to work by foot or bike, or afford $12/gal., contact your representative/senator/president about investing in efficient public transportation (vs. the war in Iraq).

SAD TO SAY: but these days, Iranians have more credibility w/ me than Bush and his British poodle. Iranian President Ahmadinejad released their "guests" w/o further ado; how about the five Iranian diplomats held captive by the US against international law? _____________ Iranian diplomat says CIA tortured him Story Highlights• NEW: White House says 'Iranian propaganda machine in overdrive' • Iranian diplomat Jalal Sharafi says CIA interrogated, tortured him in Iraq • U.S. strongly denies any CIA involvement in his abduction or in any torture • Sharafi was abducted in Iraq two months ago, released on Tuesday TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- An Iranian diplomat, freed this week after being abducted in Iraq, accused the CIA of torturing him during his two-month detention, Iranian state television reported Saturday. The United States immediately denied any involvement in the Iranian's disappearance or release. Jalal Sharafi, who was freed on Tuesday, said the CIA questioned him about Iran's relations with Iraq and assistance to various Iraqi groups, according to state television. "Once they heard my response that Iran merely has official relations with the Iraqi government and officials, they intensified tortures and tortured me through different methods days and nights," state TV quoted him as saying. Sharafi's comments came a day after 15 British sailors released by Iran said they had been subject to psychological pressure and coercion in captivity. The sailors, captured in the Persian Gulf on March 23 for allegedly entering Iranian waters, were freed Wednesday. (Full story) At the time of Sharafi's disappearance, Iran alleged the diplomat had been abducted by an Iraqi military unit commanded by American forces -- a charge repeated by several Iraqi Shiite lawmakers. U.S. authorities denied any role in his disappearance. "The United States had nothing to do with Mr. Sharafi's detention and we welcome his return to Iran," said Gordon Johndroe, a White House spokesman who was with President Bush in Texas on Saturday. "The Iranian propaganda machine has been in overdrive since they paraded the British sailors around on TV. This is just the latest theatrics of a government trying to deflect attention away from its own unacceptable actions," Johndroe added. A U.S. intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said the CIA vehemently denies any role in the capture or release of Sharafi. The official dismissed any claims of torture, saying "the CIA does not conduct or condone torture." In the report Saturday read by a newscaster, Sharafi, second secretary at the Iranian embassy in Baghdad, said he was kidnapped by agents of an Iraqi organization operating under CIA supervision and was badly tortured. State television said signs of torture were still visible on Sharafi, who is being treated at an Iranian hospital. Images of Sharafi were not shown. The television quoted Sharafi as saying he was approached by agents while shopping in Baghdad. The agents allegedly showed him Iraqi Defense Ministry identification papers and were driving U.S. coalition vehicles. He said they took him to a base near Baghdad airport and interrogated him in both Arabic and English, questioning him mainly about Iran's influence in Iraq and assistance to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's government and Iraqi groups. Sharafi did not provide additional details about his captors or their nationalities. U.S. officials allege that Iran provides money and weapons to Iraqi Shiite militias. After the initial interrogation, Sharafi said that his captors "softened their behavior and showed leniency to encourage" him to cooperate. "I explained I was unable to do anything outside my legal responsibilities," Sharafi was quoted as saying. "Later, they released me under pressure from Iraqi government officials. They dropped me near the back of the airport." His release came a day before Iran freed the 15 British sailors, raising speculation that it was part of a deal to liberate the Britons. Both London and Tehran have denied any links between the two events. Several of the British crew members said Friday that they had been blindfolded, bound, kept in solitary confinement and subjected to psychological pressure during their captivity. (Read the full statement) Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

So, what are YOU doing to protect the bumble-girls? Point, and lesson, is that the WASTEFUL American Way is unsustainable! That includes skydiving! Maybe we all need to take up BASE instead, making a PHYSICAL effort to get our asses to altitude. Nature has a very effective way of fighting back all the abuses.

No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings. These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch Terry Jones Saturday March 31, 2007 The Guardian I share the outrage expressed in the British press over the treatment of our naval personnel accused by Iran of illegally entering their waters. It is a disgrace. We would never dream of treating captives like this - allowing them to smoke cigarettes, for example, even though it has been proven that smoking kills. And as for compelling poor servicewoman Faye Turney to wear a black headscarf, and then allowing the picture to be posted around the world - have the Iranians no concept of civilised behaviour? For God's sake, what's wrong with putting a bag over her head? That's what we do with the Muslims we capture: we put bags over their heads, so it's hard to breathe. Then it's perfectly acceptable to take photographs of them and circulate them to the press because the captives can't be recognised and humiliated in the way these unfortunate British service people are. It is also unacceptable that these British captives should be made to talk on television and say things that they may regret later. If the Iranians put duct tape over their mouths, like we do to our captives, they wouldn't be able to talk at all. Of course they'd probably find it even harder to breathe - especially with a bag over their head - but at least they wouldn't be humiliated. And what's all this about allowing the captives to write letters home saying they are all right? It's time the Iranians fell into line with the rest of the civilised world: they should allow their captives the privacy of solitary confinement. That's one of the many privileges the US grants to its captives in Guantánamo Bay. The true mark of a civilised country is that it doesn't rush into charging people whom it has arbitrarily arrested in places it's just invaded. The inmates of Guantánamo, for example, have been enjoying all the privacy they want for almost five years, and the first inmate has only just been charged. What a contrast to the disgraceful Iranian rush to parade their captives before the cameras! What's more, it is clear that the Iranians are not giving their British prisoners any decent physical exercise. The US military make sure that their Iraqi captives enjoy PT. This takes the form of exciting "stress positions", which the captives are expected to hold for hours on end so as to improve their stomach and calf muscles. A common exercise is where they are made to stand on the balls of their feet and then squat so that their thighs are parallel to the ground. This creates intense pain and, finally, muscle failure. It's all good healthy fun and has the bonus that the captives will confess to anything to get out of it. And this brings me to my final point. It is clear from her TV appearance that servicewoman Turney has been put under pressure. The newspapers have persuaded behavioural psychologists to examine the footage and they all conclude that she is "unhappy and stressed". What is so appalling is the underhand way in which the Iranians have got her "unhappy and stressed". She shows no signs of electrocution or burn marks and there are no signs of beating on her face. This is unacceptable. If captives are to be put under duress, such as by forcing them into compromising sexual positions, or having electric shocks to their genitals, they should be photographed, as they were in Abu Ghraib. The photographs should then be circulated around the civilised world so that everyone can see exactly what has been going on. As Stephen Glover pointed out in the Daily Mail, perhaps it would not be right to bomb Iran in retaliation for the humiliation of our servicemen, but clearly the Iranian people must be made to suffer - whether by beefing up sanctions, as the Mail suggests, or simply by getting President Bush to hurry up and invade, as he intends to anyway, and bring democracy and western values to the country, as he has in Iraq.

I enjoy this remarkably intelligent, and inquisitive reponse for Speaker's Corner nevertheless: ad (i): "ppl always preferred being tortured/mutilated/killed by one of their own vs from members of an outside force". You can go back thru history to the present day and will find support of that statement. For example, Iraq was a perfectly contained (but violent) society until somebody from the outside decided to take the lid of the kettle. Everybody was accepting of being tortured and killed by their own countrymen. I don't believe that you can honestly argue that intervention from the outside has ameliorated the situation. As far as GWB chemically nuking Nebraska goes: I believe, you'll be accepting as long as the Canucks don't try to intervene. At that very moment, your anger will turn towards them. I'd prefer neither I think. If I had to choose though, I suppose whoever had the least brutal reputation would do. BTW, thats a very interesting argument towards this whole situation that I can honestly say I've never heard before. If GWB started testing his chemical weapons on the state of Nebraska, even if all the other 49 states didn't see a problem with it, I sure hope another country would be ever so kind to step in for me. I also think its very sad that you believe that its our goal to torture/mutilate/kill the Iraqi people. We eliminated the dictator that did these things to his own people. Some Iraqi's were happy, but the loyalists were not. We either pull out and let the civil war be fought and let the tyrrany continue, or we try to continue to stabilize the region and keep the reputation that we are there to kill/torture/mutilate the Iraqi people. I will never understand what's going on over there now, and its just plain sad. Yup, we screwed up, but I don't think we intended to turn the country into what it has become.