Trae

in reply to "I'm trying to make a list of all the wing suits models that have been invented and all the different manufacturers. " ............................................ Arrranging your list in alphabetical order would appear less biased and praps serve your purpose better. If it was to be properly useful in a historical sense you should include as much technical information about each suit as possible as well as providing some clues as to chronological development. ie what improvement led to what development . Historians just love to know who did what first and then who capitalised on it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doubling bands can cause malfunctions eg bag lock, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you mean by doubling bands? Just to be clear - double stowing all stows (including locking ones) with large rubber bands will not be the (main) cause of a bag lock. Double stowing large rubber bands is the recommended method of stowing lines. ..................... Emphasis on CAN. I've had two bag locks from doubled bands . One I packed myself and the other was given to me by a packer. Sure doubling works if done as recommended on lines suitable for it. Why not just use the correct size band? that doesn't require doubling? Where the lines are joined ( big wads of stitched together lines at the cascades on some older canopies. ) it gets thicker and stiffer and if this is jammed into a wrongly doubled not so large band 'viola'...... bag lock. Might just be a mal of the past due to modern slippery dental floss lines.

Perhaps some form of electrically controlled leg positioning could work. If a solenoid threw the prosthetic leg between two positions this might not be so complicated. The good leg could then balance the forces. If the design was sophisticated enough the moveable prosthetic could be controlled by the good legs movement and have a full range of leg movement. The mechanism could be something along the lines of a model aircrafts retractable U/C but more powerful.

in reply to "What packing error causes a malfunction? " ................................................. Line stows too tight, too loose, too long , mixture of different line stow tensions . Doubling bands can cause malfunctions eg bag lock, the list goes on...and on.

in replt "I'm also concerned about canopy control also. I can get my arm up with help from my right, but like I said it quickly gets numb." ......................................... I'm sure you could get more specific and helpful advice in the disability forum. Many skydivers get along well with what appears to be severe physical disabilities. It seems as if you'd be in a similar position under canopy as a one armed person at least until you got both toggles. Being able to activate all the handles with your strong arm in an emergency would be advisable/necesary so perhaps you'd need a left deploy main boc or a rig with a ripcord for the main. And yes the required direction of pull is downwards and outwards for both emergency handles. Flying the wingsuit is another matter. If your arms get tired wingsuiters default position is just to put your arms back . This releases most loads but can increase your freefall speeds significantly. You could practice the movements required for a wingsuit flight easy enough on the ground and in the air on a regular skydive. One step at a time and you'll know if you can do it. Nice challenge you've given yourself.

in reply to "Why I have the right to possession of the weapon but I have no right to jump without AAD?" .......................... By implementing mandatory AAD use THEY are trying to cover up for their poor training and operational methods . Its all $$$$$ to them. They want the money from lots of jumpers but don't understand how to keep our sport safer with good training and ongoing education. Instead they just ban and mandate and try to speed up the money gathering. Brilliant idea!, Quick fix ..make them wear AAD's , that's an extra $1500-$2000 per sucker.....oh and keep the little kiddies all feared up about going unconscious in freefall. That's why you got no right. Its as if everyone has been brainwashed into AAD use. Thankfully some places still give us the choice. At the other places AAD instant skydivers are dominating the sky, they're dangerous and they don't know it.

in reply to "My feeling through research books and videos is that the canopy is much more prone to collapse when already flying in a low speed where pressure in the cells is much lower than at full flight. Though it can still happen at full flight the chances are much less likely. Just a reminder as to why we should be able to fly our canopies at full speed while landing as well as in all other conditions when flying before downsizing " ...................................... Sure highly loaded canopies flying at high speed cut through turbulence quicker than slower canopies. However close to the ground the higher speed adds its own dangers. After watching and flying my share of different canopies for turbulent conditions I'd pick my circa 1990 7cell F111 Maverick over any canopy I've jumped. While I happily landed at slowish speeds in all sorts of conditions my fellow ZP jumpers were breaking bones left, right and centre....still are. I couldn't stop them, they thought fast elliptical ZP was better than good old dependable square F111. of course they weren't perfect but were they better? A partial collapse on a biggish canopy doesn't dump you into the ground as quick or as hard as a partial collapse on a highly loaded canopy. Your highly loaded ZP pockrock might cut through turbulence quicker only to put you straight into the ground ...nice and fastly.

in reply to "Rubbish, this guy should have been called on his behaviour by the DZO. No one has to put up with that nonsense, hard man or not..... If he was threatening people, then it was time for the law to get involved. " ........................................ Sure you might be right. In this day and age let the coppers sort it out.Calling the police to sort out DZ behaviour is rarely a good idea and when you do you give your self policing power away like a whuffo would. In the good old days, when skydiving world effectively policed itself, a lot of DZ's had a resident jumper who moonlighted as a policeperson. Most the DZ's I jumped at also had a strong military presense. Out of control crap only happened when these people weren't around. I've seen uncountable situations defused without involving the police. I've defused quite a few myself having learnt from experts. If you call the coppers on a fellow jumper , they will deal with things very differently than some-one who cares about you.

in reply to "It's not actually a problem that needs solving and it's not even the topic of the thread...that's how far away we've drifted it. I was just describing to an extent, what happens and why...it's a very rare occurrence and not something people should be losing sleep over. If you go out of your way to mess up other peoples fun don't be surprised to find your bowling ball in the toilet bowl, it's not the end of the world. There is no magic button to push automatically banning someone from dropzones worldwide nor should there be one...I for one find it entertaining to see people so up in arms regarding something so obscure, that may happen to someone else... yet have no compunction about putting their life is someones hands whom they may not even know, every time they jump. " ....................................... I suppose its approaching topic as dumping some-ones reserve is one method of getting '"talked to ". Thanks for sharing the old school stuff and it may have been appropriate who's to judge...but there has to be a better way to get the message across . Private chat with strong back-up should work most times if you have clear sense of righteous justice. I visited a DZ once and a merc fresh back from Somalia was running roughshod over the place. setting his own opening altitudes, in flight transferring, carrying on at night. People were afraid of him cause he had absolutely no fear here and they knew what he had in the trunk of his car. He was a great guy but they couldn't control him and shouldn't have tried. No-one would sit up and drink with him so he had no respect for them. I invited him back to our DZ. He was a true champion, and just needed some decent guidance . He found some kindred spirits and his so called bad behaviour disappeared. If any-one had dumped this guys reserve it would have been explosive. Oh yes dumping some-ones reserve happens. It just seems like a totally unpro soap opera way of doing things.... and the effects could be very unpredictable.

in reply to "I have pulled another jumper's reserve handle on the ground on purpose.....once. It was quite different than what we're talking about here though. This jumper was jumping an expired reserve pack job....for quite a while. He was aware of it. I told him beforehand that if he didn't get it repacked and I saw him jump it again I was going to pull it. He was putting the pilot and the DZ at risk for disciplinary action." ............................................. Did you pull his reserve handle because you didn't have the power to ground him.? Just wondering why you didn't just prevent him from jumping that rig (by saying "NO. ,you can't jump that".) and encourage him to get a repack or hire /borrow a different rig or p...o..! Setting a precedent for tampering with other peoples gear even under the eye of the S&TA is questionable. The powers that be on a DZ can shut the whole thing down any time they like for whatever reason. It doesn't give them the right to touch/operate/ take or otherwise mess with individuals equipment. Perhaps under some circumstances touching other peoples gear is acceptable and necessary but imho never as a disciplinary measure. The DZ just need to be tight enough to squeeze those pimples out.

in reply to "..... I foresee future wingsuits implemented with this device/material with the push of a button somehow? " ...................... Been wondering if ram-air wingsuits would benefit from pilot-controllable variable inlets that would allow adjustment of the inlet without closing the wings. ie by squeezing a hand operated lever to open them up a bit., or close them a bit to drop internal pressure. Not sure if there would be a practical use for this idea, might be handy in a flare to open the inlets up a bit to maintain pressure at the lowering speed.?? ... future wingsuits may allow us to alter suit pressure on the fly.

in reply to "what do you think wingsuiting will be like in 10 years popularity technology competitions " ............................................... It'll still be popular . The technology will blow us away. Who knows?... wingsuits may even have their very own spar by then.

reply to "i dont see how you can think like this? wingsuits in low tail aircraft ARE dangerous if you dont have proper training on exit." ............................................... You've kinda almost answered your own question. With proper training WSing is more a skill aquisition than a risk addition. As skydivers some of us constantly push our boundaries . As wingsuit pilots a whole new world of freefall has opened up for us to explore. Is it too risky or just more risky? Whatever ...humans are proving they are up for the WSing challenge. cry crawl walk run fly

in reply to "I really don't have anything against AAD's except I've had one friend killed by an AAD (the reason for airtec's speed model)and none that I know of have ever been saved by one." ................................... I kinda get the feeling modern AAD addicted skydivers don't realise the thing could kill them or other people on the load. Making such a device compulsory? Seems like Skydiving organisations around the world , that insist on compulsory AAD use , are leaving ithemselves way open for future litigation. A mature, well informed and experienced skydiver should be able to make the decision for themselves . . Compulsory AAD use ? It really looks like the fearmongers are running the show. .

in reply to "I never had happened in 150 wingsuit jumps, ever had to be the first, 17 seconds and we surprised me not having stopped in less time" ................................................. Good you persisted for 17 seconds. It can really take some time to stop a spin . If you have never had a good spinnnnn, try doing it on purpose nice and high . Guarantee you will remember that skydive for a long time. .

in reply to "Making AAD's mandatory was stupid. I am lucky to not have to use one, I am not totally opposed to them but to be forced to use a device that can fail is not just. We should have aa choice. " .................................................... Totally agree. The only time I've enjoyed jumping with an AAD on the load was while doing tandems or AFF. Being responsible for some-one else's life removed my natural abhorance of the things. But that responsibility stopped once the student became licenced . Now AAD manufacturers want us all to be their little scaredy cat students that never gets off their world widely imposed AAD required ratings. For experienced skydivers I believe the freedom of choice to AAD or not, should never be removed. In the 80's I can remember people jumping AAD's being kneecapped from loads due to their AAD use being an indicator of that skydiver not being skilled or trustworthy in the sky.i.e. that they were a danger to other skydivers. Similarly if a skydiver presented with a hard hat they wouldn't be allowed on the good loads due to their helmet choice indicating they couldn't be trusted in the sky. ie that they were a danger to other skydivers. I can also remember a very talented skydiver predicting that one day AAD's would cause more incidents than they helped. I think we're approaching that day. .

in reply to " Everyone is thinking about this in terms of current technology. It wasn't so long ago that what wingsuit fliers are doing now seemed impossible. There are many amazing things to come. Give it some time and it will happen. " ................................................................ I believe it can be done with current aerodynamic technology just not with the current wingsuits. The 'landing a wingsuit on flat ground' issue mainly rotates around wing efficiency and flaring characteristics, things current wingsuits don't do very well. To effectively flare a wingsuit for repeated landings it is highly likely that some form of high-lift device will have to be used. The devices may include T.E . flaps, mid-chord slots and L.E.slats , flaps ..or a variety of permutations. Fixing such devices to a ram air fabric wingsuit is problematic. Another disadvantage for ram air wingsuits is that when flying at lower speeds (eg during an extended flare ) , the ram air pressure will be less capable of maintaining the desired aerofoil shape. As to the effect of high lift devices: As per attachment a plain Clark Y wing (1st at top left) demonstrates a max. lift coefficient (CLmax) of 1.291 at 15 degrees angle of attack(aoa). (all wing section data from 'Theory of Wing Sections' by Ira H.Abbott and Albert E. Von Doenhoff) The highest CLmax in the table is 2.600 at 20 degrees aoa (2nd from bottom right ,for a wing with L.E. slat, a slotted flap and a rear chord slot.) That's TWICE the max lift, although the min coefficient of drag (CDmin) doubles as well. This increase in drag as the lift increases is a desirable characteristic and will be very handy when slowing down wingsuit landing speeds. . By adding a flap the clark Y wing gives CLmax of 1.950 at 12 degrees angle of attack (topright). So by adding a flap the clark Y wing can produce about 50% more lift . It seems likely to me that the best combination will be a slotted t.e.flap combined with a l.e.slat.(5th from bottom right) This combination ( on a clark Y wing ) gives a CLmax of 2.261 at 19 degrees aoa. By adding the complication of a rear chord slot (2nd from bottom right) the CLmax climbs to 2.600 at 20 degrees aoa. That's about twice as much lift as the wing without flaps, slats or slots. Of course this data is for a solid wing . It may be some time before fabric wingsuits attain the required wing efficiences for a safe(ish) landing on flat ground.

in reply to "What are your opinions on private military contractors? I'm curious and open to hearing the positive points, because frankly I don't see any. " ....................... When you say ' private military contractors ' do you mean mercenaries? Mercenaries have been in use militarily since militarily existed and their positive aspects are many and varied. The dangerous and despicable precedents you allude to have been happening for thousands of years usually performed by non-mercenary armies in the name of god and country.

in reply to "Will the 16 ASSHOLES who think this EXCELLENT Adventure into Libya is a good idea, please report to your local recruiters office for immediate induction, training and duty in North Africa.!!!! " .................................................. I'm wondering who would bother to run to your aid if you needed it ? Some faceless asshole no doubt.

From what has been reported this is a popular uprising against a tyranical, fascist like regime. Allied forces including British, American and Commonwealth forces , cleared the same area of modern Libya of nazi fascist forces in WW2. Imagine if we all had to live inder such a regime. I'm sure we couldn't toperate it. There'd be more than just peaceful gatherings in the street I'm sure. Americans, French , British, Canadian, South African , Australian , New Zealand, and our other European Allies would not long tolerate such a regime in their own countries. It is the best thing that the US is there with a strong enough military to stand up against the true despots in this world. This Libyan crisis is very goood chance to do a very good deed indeed.

ion reply to "They're not that cheap but they're not that expensive either. " ...................................... You're right they do represent fair value for money. Cheaper than an AAD and not compulsory. looks like some-one else out there is having wingsuit war dreams.

in reply to "......I do find it quite disappointing that it inevitably always erodes into this type of a discussion in the forum. One would think that "we" as a collective community could move past this petty bullshit by now, sadly, it just isn't so. " ....................................................... ....but we're getting there. All this them v's us stuff is just growing pains in perhaps the oldest airsport in existence (medieval tower jumpers were arguably the first wingsuiters). Once the current adolescent hero-worship do-do is over this sport will get on with what it does best. ....just having fun flying around in the sky. As for stealing other peoples ideas ... credit where credit's due...keeping in mind that .. "There's nothing new under the sun." Creativity and growth stagnates when people try and claim an idea as their own , selfishly keeping it to themselves. Our beautiful sport could easily stagnate if selfish people take it over for their own self grandiosment . Genuinely creative people are too busy being creative to attach themselves to one single idea. Seeing other people run off with one of your ideas , pretending its theirs ? ...it's all just part of the entertainment to a creative person. You get to see the creativity thief wallowing in your idea but having to stay trapped there as they don't have the follow through ideas for themselves. This could be the fate of any wingsuit manufacturer that continually relies on borrowing other peoples ideas. (BM ?) There's usually too many more ideas to get on with to bother chasing the thief....especially when you stole the thing in the first place. IMHO PF and TS would make a good partnership instead of being competitors , no losers only winners . You can keep the puke-worthy brand-war hero crap just give us better , cheaper suits and hurry up about it !

in reply to "How about creating a hole for the hands/arms, and covering it with 2 patches of rubber. Effectively creating a slit thats closed, but allows a hand to be pushed though?" ..................................... Thanx for the feedback . A rubber covered entry/escape slot could work. The fore-arm wings are easy enough to get into when folded sort of like reaching for your ankles in a tracking position. Doing this easily in the air may be another thing. Another issue I'm having is designing a locking device to keep the wings closed until both arms are fully in the wings and on the wing-tip handles....and whether the wings should be locked closed again in flight prior to deployment. Any constructive thoughts welcome. cheers

in reply to "In practice, making this shape real, strong, snag resistant and effective will be very difficult but CAN be done. What are you using for materials in your models, and what materials would you plan to make a real one out of? Your model looks like some kind of light .010 maybe .015, .020 plastic? The trouble with modeling that way is you spend a lot of time solving construction and materials problems that only approximate or just don't apply to any attempt at a real working model. " .............................................. Yes it can be done! The full size version does indeed pin-point some design difficulties not immediately apparent with the models as you've suggested. The design of the fore-arm wings has solidified a bit (pun intended) . They feel good to move around in . However thewings pictured are only the outer wings of a larger system , needing a thru-spar and inner wings in order to function as designed. The through-spar linking the wings is not finalised . Current version works but feels clunky and uncomfortable. Needs better placement of the shoulder hinges and more padding. Currently the design has the forearm wings retracting on the front side of the body mainly to avoid the rig . When folded the wings still present a fair surface to the air. I'm hoping the folded wing position will respond to normal tracking position inputs. Thats gunna be difficult to test without jumping it.. and having some wing locking device to keep them closed until they pass. Stumbling block is emergency access to handles, The E.P. issue is less getting at the handles which are clear and accessible , more about removing the forearms from the wing. To maximise wing efficiency the l.e.'s enclose the fore-arms. This means a more consistent aerofoil shape can be achieved but creates issues with arm removal. The option of using an open slot in the wing for the arm creates construction and strength issues as well as reducing the wing's efficiency but would allow easy arm removal. Currently wings need to be retracted before arms can be removed easily. Perhaps some sort of back up break-out opening along the l.e. sleeve would give some options in an emergency. Next design priority is the thru- spar. I'm close with the dimensions and workability but the materials have to change. Polycarbonate was looking too heavy and complicated for the inner wing spars. I'm thinking two sections of carbon fibre fishing rod and alum hinges will do the job of a mess of polycarb.

Going back to the 80's when 4 and 8way sequential comps had half the dives picked from set dives. Some of those set rounds were really things of beauty to perform and watch. and what a relief to already know half the dives. Getting to practice them over and again accelerated the learning and gave good sense of accomplishment. Watching the world class competitors doing the same dives gave everyone a good range of flying styles to emulate. Miss those set rounds. Why did they get rid of them ? Gone are the pleasant flow of those classic skydives. They got chopped up to help produce the block system. The system that replaced them imho was ugly in comparison... and is probably reponsible for heaps of dirt-dive brain burn and tunnel time tinnitus. Modern sequential while amazingly skilled just somehow lacks the grace of those old set rounds. The world class early 4 and 8 way teams were relative work visionaries and uplifting to watch in action . It'd be good to see some cruisy style put back into sequential. Where skill wasn't so attached to time and racing. A free artistic round or two could break up all that tunnel time on show at the mo. Might even make sequential good to watch for more than a few minutes.