jshatzkin

Here ya go- Clicky Jen

I'm with you! Anyone who has half a brain would realize this clip is a piece of bullshit propaganda! This guy was booted before he ever finished basic training. Even the Iraq Veterans Against the War have disavowed this guy! Jen

Absolutely. I have been doing this. In fact today I turned down a job offer at a college (I don't want to settle for any job). It's all timing. I am putting the top priority jobs in first, then filtering down. It's just a long process. I can't count the number of coffees, phone calls, meetings and interviews I have already been involved in. I guess it's not "a job" I am looking for; it's "the job". And I hope THE job comes around soon!

I don't think the number of people smoking MJ, if it were legal, would increase a whole lot. I think some people who don't smoke it now because only of job urinalysis and the fact it is illegal, might take it up. I definitely think the people already smoking it would probably smoke more often, thus increasing the lung cancer argument. Possibly. Jen

I have discovered Sudoku in the past couple of days, so maybe that will keep me busy,..I mean obsessed! Jen

I thought about packing parachutes,..until I realized I pack way too slow Maybe I could volunteer. Do some community good! Maybe I'll call habitat for humanity today. Jen

So you can empathize! Is that how you got over 30,000 posts? Jen

I agree with that. I think I stated many times in this thread that the policy issues go deep, and pointed to big industries and political ties. Now, having said that,..I still think MJ does have harmful health effects. Warning: going on a tangeant rant So, to clear this problem of the black market; let's legalize everything so we can control it. Even prostitution. There won't be gang wars or pimps or drug shootings. We could make sure that quality of drugs are pure (no rat poison, dirty cans or fillers). We could use the tax (Sin Tax) money to help pay for addiction treatment, disability payments and anything else we need. Although reality is, the money would probably be used in tax rebate for big companies who support politicians. Another reality is, there will always be a black market for something. There are black markets for designer clothes and pirated movies. There is even a black market for cigarettes, and they are legal. The huge taxes on cigarettes, makes them a viable candidate for a soaring undergound market. Even if drugs were legal, there would still be "cheaper, get you high faster" drugs in the black market. Hell with our Big Brother government, they could even monitor who is buying drugs (if legal) and then use it against them later. A similar system is in place for alcohol. Have you ever bought alcohol in a place that types in your birthdate and name?? I have, and it's kind of creepy. Let's take up the abortion issue as well. (might as well since the gun issue has found its way into the argument) There would definitely be a black market for abortions if illegal. Dark alley midnight abortions with hangers. So definitely keep abortion legal. Tangeant rant over. Where were we?? Oh yeah, I was looking for a job. Oh, wrong thread. Jen

You got that right Jen

Easier said than done! Most jobs in the professional realm and at the federal and governmental level (the ones I have been seeking), take months. I applied for a federal job in April, got a call back in June for an interview in July. They JUST now called for verification of eligibility documents prior to a job offer, noting that the offer could take 3-4 more weeks. Then the start date a few weeks after that. So from beginning to end, the jobs I am seeking have anywhere from a 4 to 7 month process. But excellent jobs! I would rather wait, and go crazy, for a really great job, than to settle for something now. However, in the meantime, I feel my brain oozing all over the keyboard the longer I stay on this site! Jen

That is all I was trying to say. I never stated that if you use marijuana then you will use heavier drugs. But for those who do abuse heavier drugs, they often started with heavy use of MJ. An involved study, noted in the book "drugs, society, and human behavior" by Oakley Ray and Charles Ksir, highlights the gateway theory. Cigarettes and acohol are initial gateway drugs (because they are more accesible to youth) with marijunana being 3rd (1st in the illegal drug category). They state "we don't think gateway drugs are the cause of later illicit drug use, but, instead, as an early indicator of deviant behavior resulting from a variety of psychosocial risk factors." So YOU are implying the word "gateway drug" with "causality",..which it clearly is not the definition of gateway drug. I am still on the fence of the legalization aspect, because it is much about policy and economics than anything else. It's not illegal solely for its effects (read my earlier posts about history of drug policy). I guess my post was more of a general statement that has many sides to argue. I never stated that "it is a gateway drug and therefore should be illegal". That is totally taking my posts out of context. I just am trying (as I have stated before) to dispell the myth that it is harmless. And yes, alcohol and tobacco are harmful too,..again refer to my post about drug policy history. On a lighter note, I have found in my own experience that belly flying is a gateway drug to freeflying! Jen

Jen

I moved recently and am still seeking employment. My days have no structure or routine and I am going nuts. Spending WAY too much time on dropzone.com. Even in a debate in SC. Please someone save me! As a previous lurker, I swore I would never have more posts than jumps. I need a purpose! Jen

Have I concluded that? I never said people should "fear" pot either. In every post I have accentuated the effects of chronic and addictive use, and have been careful to not tie its effects to occasional recreational or experiemental use. I have never mentioned one way or another if it should be legalized. I am just attempting to dispell the myth of it being a harmless drug. I would say similar things about *legal* drugs of alcohol and tobacco too. It just hits my nerve when people use the argument of its being harmless and "God grown in the ground" as basis for their argument because both of these statements resemble little truth to the reality of the drug. There is countering research that looks at the medicinal use of marijuana, and the hemp use (saving more trees). The problem is not absence of countering research, the problem is what the politicians do with the research. And it likely has more to do with big industry and companies (that's who drives policy). This is about policy, not research. Jen

Where does it state that? I think what the connection was, was chronic and heavy use over a long period, which is very different than very distant use. As far as MPD, at least they have changed the name to fit a dissociative state and removed it from the personality disorder cluster. That is a step towrd some resolution. I think people on the thread are contorting my comments to mean that "if you smoke, then this will happen." I have never stated that, and did not say it was a common occurence. I keep restating my point that marijuana is not a docile, harmless drug and can have adverse effects if abused. I have not even mentioned the memory problems, that are researched and evidence based, that it can cause (on a much more common level than psychosis). Anybody can argue ANY side of any issue with a general statement like this. It is difficult in most research to isolate the single cause of anything, as nothing we do exists in a vacuum. Especially in psychiatry. We can have our opinions, but to argue the ?validity? of the research? It has been peer reviewed and published. I know that does not make it the gold standard of truth, but at least it is more valid than a dz.commer simply posting their opinion. Jen

Just one quick reference (with others noted in the text) to back up my claim " CANNABIS PSYCHOSIS Dr Brian Boettcher Consultant Psychiatrist Shelton Hospital, Shropshire’s Community & Mental Health Services NHS Trust, Bicton Heath, Shrewsbury, SY3 8DN Introduction The drug induced psychosis seen when Cannabis is the main substance being abused is distinct phenomenologically from other psychosis. It is unusual for such a psychosis to occur without other drugs being involved to some extent and so it is difficult to tease out the differences between the effects of Cannabis and other drugs. However it is misleading and dangerous, to our youth in particular, to label Cannabis as “soft”. In fact the serious adverse effects of Cannabis have been known for some time now and Hall and Solowij in the British Journal of Psychiatry sounded warnings in 1997 about such issues as dependence on Cannabis, adolescent developmental problems, permanent cognitive impairment as well as involvement in and the development of psychosis.[1] There are suggestions that in a small number of cases Cannabis is capable of precipitating psychosis, going on to the chronic picture described below, in people who have had no family and personal history of psychiatric illness.There have been suggestions that such people may be the ones who have started Cannabis in their teens and caused disturbance to neural connectivity. However, it seems Cannabis can precipitate or exacerbate a schizophrenic tendency in a characteristic manner.[2] ACUTE SYMPTOMS OF CANNABIS PSYCHOSIS International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) Often the combination of symptoms makes one suspicious that schizophrenia is present but at the same time there is an affective component. There may be the suspicion that the condition, either in part of whole, is feigned for reasons that are unclear because the pattern of symptoms do not fall easily into the usual criteria for psychosis. Drug taking is often denied, or the amount that is admitted by the patient is so little that one cannot say that this accounts for the current symptoms. Worse still, patients may not even consider Cannabis as an illicit or dangerous drug and so do not mention using it. Hallucinations are vague and delusions may be transitory with little in the way of thought disorder. There is often a lack of volition and a history of gradually deteriorating social ability and contact with others, including significant others. This history will often be verified by relatives and close friends who may be either completely ignorant of the drug taking, or confirm that there has been some in the past but believe that there has been little drug taking recently. There is often a depressive component with suicide attempts in the past but nothing recent or, if there is, then they are only ineffectual pleas for help. The person has usually lost his or her job some months or weeks before due to their poor performance at work. There is often very poor memory and concentration, which may be marked at the time of presentation. Paranoid delusions may be present and quite severe which can be the most alarming psychotic feature and result in hospital admission. If confronted with aggressive and authoritarian staff, who indicate verbally or non-verbally, that they do not believe the patient, the patient may become violent or simply leave against medical advice. There is a slow and gradual effect of cannabis and the symptoms continue to worsen for some time after the person stops using it. Thus by the time of presentation the person may be so disorganised and confused that they can’t even arrange their next “cone” or “joint”. Over the following few days the symptoms ease quickly. The improvement is easily credited to the neuroleptics and/or the antidepressants, which may in fact have contributed to the improvement. Symptoms such as the paranoia, hallucinations and depression fade until the patient is allowed to go on leave from the hospital and, a worsening of the symptoms may follow this. More often than not the nursing staff are the first to become suspicious that drugs have been taken when the patient is on leave from the hospital. It could even be that the drug screen only indicated small dose drug taking or even absent. The International Classification of Disease indicates the following symptoms due to Cannabis. “There must be dysfunctional behaviour, as evidenced by at least one at of the following: (1) Apathy and sedation (2) Disinhibition (3) Psychomotor retardation (4) Impaired attention (5) Impaired judgement (6) Interference with personal functioning. C. At least one of the following signs must be present: (1) Drowsiness (2) Slurred speech (3) Pupillary constriction (except in anoxia from severe overdose, when pupillary dilatation occurs) (4) Decreased level of consciousness (e.g. Stupor, coma) F12.0 Acute intoxication due to use of cannabinoids F12.0 DCR-10 A. The general criteria for acute intoxication (F1x.0) must be met. B. There must be dysfunctional behaviour or perceptual disturbances including at least one at least one of the following: (1) Euphoria and disinhibition (2) Anxiety or agitation (3) Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation (4) Temporal slowing (a sense that time is passing very slowly, and/or the person is experiencing a rapid flow of ideas) (5) Impaired judgement (6) Impaired attention (7) Impaired reaction time (8) Auditory, visual or tactile illusions (9) Hallucinations, with preserved orientation (l0) depersonalization (11) derealization (12) Interference with personal functioning increased appetite dry mouth conjunctival injection tachycardia.” [3] DSM IV also has similar but less complete information under the heading of Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder and refers the reader to a general description of “ Sunstance­Induced Psychotic Disorder”. That is the difference in the phenomenology of Cannabis Psychosis and other substance induced psychosis is not made, however this is now rather dated being 1994 when published.[4] It can be seen from this that the range of symptoms is quite extensive and not confined to the core symptoms mentioned at the beginning. CHRONIC SYMPTOMS OF CANNABIS PSYCHOSIS Patients are left with the well-recognised and permanent symptoms of memory loss, apathy, loss of motivation and, paranoid ideation. These symptoms known as “ the Amotivational Syndrome” in the past are usually permanent.[5] If Cannabis using resumes then the acute symptoms redevelop. The chronic state can also be arrived at without a preceding psychotic episode. After Cannabis started to be widely used about 20 years ago, for permanent damage to occur it was felt by some that Cannabis had to be heavily used over at least three years [6]. However, there is accumulating evidence that smaller amount will do damage also and in animals “ deficits on tasks dependent on frontal lobe function have been reported in cannabis users” [7]. It is very difficult to conduct research in this area, as it is not acceptable to harm humans by doing trials with damaging substances such as Cannabis. However there is accumulating evidence of the psychological consequences of using Cannabis [8]. It is logical that to get the permanent “ Amotivational Syndrome” small amounts to damage have to accumulate incrementally. All this is in addition to the recognised danger of a recurrence of a pre-existing illness, such as Schizophrenia or Manic-depressive disorder. There are suggestions that Cannabis “ caused schizophrenia in young people and (or) enhanced the symptoms, especially in young people poorly able to cope with stress or in whom the antipsychotic therapy was unsuccessful”. [9] Caspari found “patients with previous cannabis abuse had significantly more rehospitalizations, tended to worse psychosocial functioning, and scored significantly higher on the psychopathological syndromes "thought disturbance" (BPRS) and "hostility" (AMDP). These results confirm the major impact of cannabis abuse on the long-term outcome of schizophrenic patients”.[10]P References [1] Hall W, Solowij N, “ Long-term Cannabis use and Mental Health “ 1997 British Journal of Psychiatry, August, 171:107-8 [2] Hall A, Degenhardt, “Cannabis and Psychosis” Australian National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, Presented at The Inaugural International Cannabis and Psychosis Conference 1999 , Melbourne 16-17 February 1999 [3] World Health Organisation, Geneva, (1992) “ The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders” [4] Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders , Fourth Edition, American Psychiatric Association,1994 [5] Schwartz RH “Marijuana: an overview”. Pediatr Clin North Am 1987 Apr;34(2):305-17 . [6] Boettcher B, Medical Journal of Australia 11/25 December 1982 “Marijuana and Apathy” [7] Jentsch J D, Verrico C D, Le D, Roth RH, “ Repeated exposure to dleta9-tetragydrocannabinol reduces prefrontal cortal dopamine metabolism in the rat “ ,Neurosci Lett (1998) May 1;246(3):169-72 [8] Hall W, Solowji N, Lemon J, The health and psychological consequences of Cannabis use. National Drug Strategy Monograph Series no 25. Canberra: Australia Government Publishing Service, 1994 [9] van Amsterdam JG, van der Laan JW, Slangen JL, “Cognitive and psychotic effects after cessation of chronic cannabis use “ Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd 1998 Mar 7;142(10):504-8 [10] Caspari D, “Cannabis and Schizophrenia: Results of a follow-up Study” Eur Arch Psychiatry Clin Neurosci 1999;249(1):45-9 Jen

Linz, That's basically it. I do recall a sepcific staffings on one of these patients (there were only 3 that I specifically remember over an 18 month period who received this dx). The doc was so adamant that chronic use contributed to his psychotic state. I cannot remember how long it had been since his last use, but it was negative in his urine. He had used several times per day for several years. Who knows, maybe he got some bad stuff that messed him up. Anyway, I am glad you posted this. I think some people here are trying to argue that other than mellowing you out and giving the munchies, there is not much more to marijuana use. My point is that it can definitely alter thinking and functioning and can have some severe effects. That was my whole reasoning of posting the diagnosis of these patients. COuld the doctors have been wrong? I don't know. I initially argued that it had to be more going on with them, but was shot down. But the fact remains, it is possible to have psychosis with it in a non-intoxication state. The DSM states "...1. the symptoms developed during or within a month of substance intoxication or withdrawal....." Jen

Plenty of them AS far as the docs diagnosing,..obviously we went through comprehensive assessments and histories and that was the conclusion. AS I stated in another post, look up the DSM-IV diagnostic codes 292.11 and 292.12. Psychosis due to marijuana use is real and not just some made up dx the docs gave these (only very few) patients. If you looked far enough, my comment about the psychoactive properties was in reponse to the argument about marijuana use vs. guns! Not marijuana vs. other drugs! Finally, the "lumping" of MJ users, was more a response of the effects of drug addiction in general. And that does not matter what type of drug. There are users, abusers, and those who are physically dependent. Very different between the three. I am talking about physically dependent, addicted drug users. They do not function in society, are a drain on health care and are less productive in general. Jen

I think what we are talking about here is occasional recreational/experimental use vs. regular users. I restate my gateway statement. Alcohol and tobacco are the real gateway drugs. Nancy Andreason, M.D., PhD, is a whiz in the field of psychiatry. Her review of literature and common conclusions of professionals, is that regular users of marijuana are more likely to also use other drugs. I think that was the point I was trying to make. not too well Jen

I am not the one who gave the dx,..I just gave the tx. I was skeptical as well,...but 5 docs, including a neurologist all assured that other causes were ruled out, and pinpointed the dx as marijuana induced psychosis. Again, this was something that was rare to see in our unit, but it is possible. I know that it is difficult to pinpoint exactly the cause for any mood or psychotic problems. Diagnosing is very complex. Who knows, perhaps all the docs were wrong. As far as you not having seen any literature on it, go look in a (diagnostic statistical manual of mental disorders) DSM-IV TR, diagnostic codes 292.11 and 292.12. You don't get much more researched based in mental health and substance abuse than that. Jen

Granted we had WAY more psychosis/mood problems with cocaine and meth users. I don't mean to imply that it is frequent with marijuana,..but it is very much possible. And as stated, we did have a few cases of that. All mental illness and medical causes of psychosis were ruled out, with chronic cannabis use being main factor of psychosis. Jen

So is nail polish remover if youre deperate and of a personality that becomes easily addicted or relies upon anything at all to alter mood. *** Reference me one study, scholarly article or peer reviewed journal that supports this statement, and I'll give you credit. I assume you are just making an opinionated statement not backed by any real facts. There are indeed several studies that DO identify marijuana as a gateway drug. I have never, in all my studies and experience in this field, have come across any research OR clients that back up your statement. Only thing that comes close are pre-teens who sniff gas and glue, by then most are already smoking marijuana. Jen

I think the whole point is that using marijuana changes the chemistry in your brain, during and after use. You become impaired. Thinking and reaction times are distorted. I previously worked at an inpatient hospital and we had a few cases of people who used marijuana heavily over a few years and developed mood disorders, and in some people psychotic disorders. I am not talking about intoxication psychosis,..I am talking about fucking-up-your-brain permanently psychosis. And these were the same people who in their younger years rendered marijuana "harmless". The diagnosis: Psychotic disorder due to prolonged marijuana use. Paranoia and magical thinking were key features. These were in people who had clean urinalysis, who had not smoked in months, but had a long history of heavy use. Now guess who is picking up their social security disability bill?? Now tell me it is only "their" problem if they are addicted to drugs! Jen

It varies from state to state. Some states (ie Oregon) are much more forgiving. I do agree (and scholarly studies show) that marijuana is the stepping block to addiction and harder drugs. Not to imply that everyone who uses it will go on to heavier drugs, but it is called the "gateway drug" for a reason. Jen

I also add the "smoking" part in the processing of marijuana. You don't simply take a leaf and chew it (unless it's in brownies). Besides, growers have altered, cross-bred and fertilized most crops to increase THC levels, so the plant itself has been altered drastically by human hands. Then you dry the leaves,..and smoke it. My point is, when it goes to your lungs, it is far from its "God grown out of the ground" argument. My only point in that being that the "natural God grown" argument is weak and not really true. What is true is that humans of ALL cultures from the beginning of time have have used plants/drugs in religious/ceremonial/performance enhancing ways and we probably always will. Whether it's coffee to wake up in the morning or Viagra. Like I said before, most drug policy is based in social and political schemas that are too complex to lay out in this thread. Do I think it should be legalized? I don't know. I struggle with it. I don't think it is harmless, but I also think alcohol rivals, if not worse than, marijuana. I think it should definitely be decriminalized to a misdeamenor (unless you are toting 20 lbs of it). Jen