idrankwhat

Fixed it

that's BS. Hizbollah was (and always has) firing from within houses. one of the Israeli inteligence top successes was pinpointing exactly in which house hezbollah was storing their "big long range" missiles and the airforce took them out right at the begining (sadly hundreds of other rockets were launched too). hiding behind civilians is a nice tactic, your enemy thinks twice before shooting and if they do they are automatically condemmed as war criminals (even though the geneva convention clearly states that combating forces have to be clearly marked by uniform and cannot operated from within civilian population). O ""What's shocking and completely immoral is: 90% of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution," he said." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm

Well, maybe not everybody but some people could possibly benefit. http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/lumber.asp Can you bend over backwards and touch your head to the ground? Only as a prelude to a hospital visit, and never in mixed company. Why?

It does provide a nice counter-balance to some of the more extreme left winger posts. Maybe if it's a Fairin balance

Well, maybe not everybody but some people could possibly benefit. http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/lumber.asp

Is this supposed to be taken seriously? If not, good one! If so, Damn! And have a nice day. I think you might have even blown the mind of every self proclaimed right winger on the website.

While they are at it, somebody measure out exactly 1/5th of a foot for me. Two tenths of a foot. Just ask any surveyor. The tapes are measured in 10ths and 100ths of a foot. Kooky, and it really pisses off the architects.

wrong. all military presence was removed also. the only place where there is a "kind" of presence is by remote video in the border crossing between Gaza and egypt which is supposed to be monitored by UN or european personnel (not that it matters because they cross wherever they want anyway) Sounds like more that just video surveillance to me. http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1782415,00.html the only part "annexed" by law is Jerusalem. And the Palestinians who live there can't get building permits to build on their own land, or some "problem" is found so their structures are bulldozed. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engMDE150522006?open&of=eng-ISR the rest of the west bank is not considered Israeli by Israeli law (suggesting that there was no long term desire to keep it. I agree that many of the settlements in the west bank are a waste of time and money and everybody knows that they will be removed when peace is achieved. As a third party looking in, your explanation not only doesn't make sense because of the settlements are listed on the proposed peace maps, but it makes absolutely no sense at all to continue to build in an area that you claim to plan to abandon. If Israel wants peace, and as you say, is planning on removing its settlements, they why not discontinue settling, pull out and THEN try to make peace? Expecting the Palestinians to believe that you plan to leave by continuing to take land and build is just plain ridiculous. but to tell you the truth, although i was very happy to pull out of gaza, seeing the mess that exists there now, i'm not sure i want the same mess 5 minutes from where I live. Gaza was a test case and there were already plans to pull out from the west bank (with or without negotiations), sadly the palestinians failed this test case big time. How could they expect to succeed?! All Israeli military attacks aside, Israel blockaded Gaza's commerce and all financial aid was cut off because the US and Israel didn't like the outcome of a democratic election. How can a people make a life for themselves if Israel won't let them sell the fruit that they grow or the products that they produce? It's outrageous to expect them to thrive while essentially locked up in a pen without food and water and getting beaten daily. No wonder they're starting to turn on themselves. O

I didn't think that proposal ever actually got out for public viewing. Perhaps you're thinking of later proposals. I've heard extensive interviews of Dennis Ross, the chief US representative during the negotiations. He does not seem to be an idealog at all, and his detailed accounting of what happened left no room for doubt that Arafat didn't really want a peace that included the survival of Israel. This was the map that came to mind. I couldn't get access to the map that is posted at Harpers, where the story came from, but this site has a copy. http://palestineremembered.com/images/Palestine-Shrinking.jpg And here's another. The maps are at the bottom. They also show what is essentially three, non-contiguous "reservations" littered with Jewish settlements, military installations and under near complete control of the Israeli military. Also Israel gets all of Jerusalem, which as far as I'm concerned is a bad idea. It's just another hand over of the city to one religion. It seems to me that unless all three religions can lay some sort of claim to Jerusalem, that city is doomed to another battle in the future. http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/maps/

Correct me if I'm wrong you're telling me that the Palestinians are too stupid to be awarded any respect. Just like the Native Americans were. That about sum it up? I hope not because that's not what I expected from you. P.S. Your points about the Nazis is one of the reasons that I can't comprehend that the Israelis have no trouble doing the same thing to another people. P.P.S. When you get a chance please try to answer my question about respecting borders.

What she said.... Please, just answer one question for me. You both can get together in a confab if it will make things easier. Why should the Palestinians respect Israel's borders when Israel doesn't respect its own border? Look, I don't have a dog in this fight other than that I'm helping to finance one side of it and that it may be the reason that my 3 year old son eventually gets drafted to fight in a war that is caused in part by this stupid, holy land blood fest by a bunch of people who are ALL CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM, essentially BROTHERS! What it comes down to is this: The modern state of Israel was planted in a land that is Holy primarily to three religions. The people who were displaced got pissed off and have understandably been resisting. Hell I'd be pretty pissed off too if my country had spent a millenium expelling foreign invaders only to have my land GIVEN to someone else. Israel has continued to expand its presence ever since and the only way that has been allowed to happen is because my country has enabled it. People are now pissed off at my country because of it and it is one of the reasons that we were attacked six years ago. We know all of this yet we continue to fan the flames because we let Israel continue its expansion with no accountability for their land grabbing, or human rights violations. Frankly, I'm tired of it and I'm tired of people reducing the discussion to talking point repetition as opposed to actually acknowledging and addressing the problem and trying to put an end to it. If we could insert some balanced honesty into the debate we might make some progress.

They tried that in '67. Look how well it worked out for them. Ok, to be Devil's advocate on this one. Who would have won if the US had backed the Palestinians with arms? Would the debate be different if over the last few decades we had given the Palestinians nukes, $3 billion/yr in aid and helped them with targeting their enemies?

- throughout history land exchanged hands in wars. keep in mind that Israel did not start these wars. and in the past 30 years Israel has been trying to give back these lands in exchange for peace. with egypt and Jordan this has worked, but both with Lebanon and the palestinians (whos land was Jordanian) after Israel's pull out all we got is rockets flying over the border. trust me when I tell you that most Israelis will give back lands that are very dear to us for the hope of peace. Gaza for us was a test case, Israel has pulled out completely and ever since then all of our border towns receive a daily (and i do mean daily) dose of missiles. and now it has become a terrorist organization controlled area with strong ties to the most extreme entitiles in the world (risking the PA, Israel and also egypt and jordan) O I'm not going to get into Gaza right now but there seems to be plenty to illustratate that while the "withdrawl" was official and the settlers left that the military presence didn't. It was on par with the daily antagonizing that Israel shared with the Lebanese but that also could be for another discussion. The question I have for you is, has Israel been continuing to annex the west bank and have they continued to issue building permits since Olmert came in to power on the promise of ending the expansion? The BBC and Haaretz says that's the case.

I vote "bad" because it just shows you how wrong the notion that "anyone can grow up to be President" is. You have to be an insider to get in the game and the dollars decide who gets to play.

Actually it wasn't a very good deal for the PA. Have you seen the proposed map? The "Palestinian state" basically was comprised of four separate reservations (my word) with access controlled by Israel.

So you support Israel's policy of continuing to take land from their neighbors along with the US's unofficial support of same? Will you support a takeover of Israel if Arabs and Persians unite and take over the land? Or will you cry "foul" and quote UN resolutions as justification for US intervention? For the record, I'd call "foul". That's how international agreements work.

.......most (or part, I'm not sure) of his term.

You can call that piece of land whatever name you want, including "Palestine", "Syria Palestinia", "Caanan", "Philistia", "Kingdom of Jerusalem", "Land of Israel". However the land to this day doesn’t belong to the "Palestinians". Are you talking about the land outside of Israel's 1967 borders or inside? If it's outside, then it doesn't belong to Israel regardless of whether or not you think the Palestinians have a claim. Show me one document that recognizes Palestine as a country. It was not a country, it was considered a territory, or region. There are plenty of documents that refer to "Palestine". And here's one example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan But look it up yourself. What did they call the area that was partitioned to create the state of Israel? I'm really not sure why you're having trouble with the concept that the southern levant is basically the homeland to a large portion of population of the planet and is the birth place to at least three dominant religions. Meaning that they ALL have a historical claim to the region. That's why Jerusalem was supposed to be considered an international city when the UN carved out the borders of Israel. That is, of course, after the "rightful owners" relinquished their claim[.red]

Thanks, I needed that.

Water and coffee and water and coffee and unsweetened tea and water. Until I get home and get the kids to bed. Then it's either a hoppy barley pop, a Belgian ale or a big, red glass of vino.

Weight? That's so.....so......so terrestrial You realize that with all this talk I'm going to have this stuck in my head for the rest of the day. Dek, El, Do...... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2423625720002540823&q=little+twelve+toes&total=42&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Hold on to your hats everyone. Falxori, I completely agree with you.

Amen brotha. People seem to forget this fact. "Palestine" was where Israel was plopped. The Brits called it "Palestine". If you want to go earlier then you can take your pick. There's "Palestine", "Syria Palestinia", "Caanan", "Philistia", "Kingdom of Jerusalem", "Land of Israel", "Trans Jordan". And many many more names. Why is it that people only want to acknowledge a Zionist viewpoint? Personally I think they should just call it "The Southern Levant" or maybe "The Holy Land". That way it works for everyone. To try to deny the multi-cultural history in favor of one group or another is just plain ignorant and why we have this problem. There has never been a recognized country called Palestine. The land never belonged to the "Palestinian" people. They simply occupied the land. That' doesn’t make it theirs, just like the old apartment I used to occupy, but did not own. You can call that piece of land whatever name you want, including "Palestine", "Syria Palestinia", "Caanan", "Philistia", "Kingdom of Jerusalem", "Land of Israel". However the land to this day doesn’t belong to the "Palestinians", just like it didn’t belong to them in the 40's, when England, the rightful owner, handed the land over to the Israelis, who are now the rightful owners. And what was that land called when "the rightful owner" handed it over to the UN for partitioning? See: "British Mandate of Palestine and "United Nations Special Committee on Palestine for a hint. I'm not sure why some people respect the validity of the borders drawn by the British in all other partitions except those dealing with "Palestine". Also, where do you draw the border for the current "rightful owners"? I'm pretty sure, regardless of what you want to call the West Bank and Gaza, that the UN didn't say "here's Israel and here are your borders. Feel free to move them as you see fit and by all means, if we pass resolutions telling you to cut it out, please be sure to ignore them".

REHMWA for President!