tdog

Interesting enough - Robin Heid just wrote an article for Skydiving Magazine addressing this issue, detailing the laws and interviewing a few DZOs that allow sub-18 year olds and the interesting waiver/parental consent techniques they use. It seems the key from every DZO that was interviewed - BOTH your parents must be on board with the idea and well educated. The DZOs interviewed: Skydive Temple - Texas, Austin Skydive Center - Texas, West Tennessee Skydiving Center. At my home DZ there are a lot of 16 and 17 year olds that show up daily, packing parachutes, driving equipment, making friends, learning the sport - and doing their first jump on their 18th birthday. My advice, if you can't find a DZ that will let you jump, find one where you can show up and make friends and learn, and maybe even get a job....

To which part, I think I simply said PIA was invite only, thus not a neutral party. You said: I don't understand the difference between "invite only" and "need two member sponsors." I think the PIA homepage says it all - it is a TRADE ORGANIZATION for the BUSINESS OF SELLING PARACHUTES (From their home page): I think PIA is great, every trade needs a trade organization to serve them, I just don't think it is the best body to certify anyone or anything as they have a financial interest in their member's products succeeding, which could mean, a financial interest in not supporting non-member's products and techniques. If they spun off a certification arm, which anyone could join and vote, then maybe....

I think perhaps - continuing education credits for attending seminars hosted by the manufactures, etc - would be cool. However, no one in this industry can afford that. Example, I have a certification for work. Taking the written test was $450 for 60 questions, $600 a year membership fee, and $250 for the 200 page textbook for the exam. That program is commercial and can afford to offer and administer the continuing education so one can earn the "good housekeeping seal of approval" in that type of work.... Who will pay all those fees in skydiving to host, administer, and regulate it??? Maybe bi-annual reviews by the DPRE? That would be simple and cheap....

How about you train yourself to look at the clock in the tunnel every few seconds and keep track of time. If you look at the clock and it is not what you expected, then analyze why... Altitude awareness is not about 1 minute blocks - it is about looking often at the altimeter. You might get out of the aircraft at 9,000 feet some day soon - 1 minute = underground at 9,000 feet...

You know that the PIA is an invite only manufacturer's trade organization, right??? I like the idea. I just don't think the PIA is the right group to be neutral....

Handful???? To all readers: This 100 post long debate started on December 7th when I posted a link to SSK's post (the sole US service center for Airtec products). http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2385171;#2385171 MEL, who likes to debate with me, and I admit I like to debate back - has debated every point from the fact SSK is not "the manufacture", so following their instructions is not allowed, to details in the FARs. I have contacted many people, including the author of the post above that started this thread. I have tried to learn a lot. I am questioning if I am wrong - as I am not trying to bend the rules. So this is an open invite. If you are a rigger in the USA - or have some legal expertise in the FARs - this is an open invite to PM me or post in this thread. For every PM I get, I will post online a "pack" or "no pack" vote, but protect your identity. I promise to listen and not waste your time with debate... I just want to hear from others... MEL, if you want, I can send you my cell phone so you can have your experts call me to educate me. With data, I will admit I am wrong and say MEL is right.

You have pretty much told us exactly how you interpret them, "personally"... I am not going to restate your opinion.... You might have 30 years of experience... I, on the other hand, talked with over 10 qualified people on this issue including people with rather impressive credentials (lawyers specializing in FAA parachuting regulations, manufactures (more than one), pilots, mechanics, DZOs, the USPA, etc). I am not posting their names or job titles because our conversations were not for public consumption, but there are plenty out there who others can contact for their own research. My actions and how I handle the AAD unit life situation, which I am not going to post publicly my exact procedures and policies, are based upon the combined professional recommendations of these professionals because I am not egotistical enough to believe I know everything (despite my persona on dropzone.com) My online "debate" with you is because there seems to be a consensus by almost everyone - other than you - that a rigger CAN seal a rig with an AAD that will "expire" in the next 180 days... That's not to say all the experts recommend it, nor are doing it. You have interesting logic... You look for what is omitted from the rules instead of what is in the rules. As someone else said, the laws in the USA are written with the understanding that unless it is specifically prohibited or regulated, by default it is allowed. But, for the sake of learning - which specific airworthiness directive relating to AADs do you think applies to the issue of time limited components in AADs? P.S. You did not answer my question in the last post... I suggested that this debate between you and I was a dead horse, and I asked everyone, including you, to think about what the rules SHOULD be - if we had an opportunity to inspire the FAA to clarify. Do you have an answer to that?

We all know how you interpret the rules. That argument is now a dead horse... You won't change our minds now sooner than we will change yours - although it inspired me to talk to many people (including the manufacture and service center of the most popular AAD)... I learned a lot - so thank you for your debate. Here is the next question. I talked to a few aircraft owners and mechanics about inspections and components that will time out between inspections. It is clear that many components time out between inspections and the sole responsibility to track these engine times, landing count, and dates since last maintenance is the responsibility of the owner/operator of the aircraft... If an FAA official came to you, (anyone on dropzone.com, not just MEL) and said, "We are thinking of publishing an interpretation that states the AAD need not be airworthy for the entire packjob window, and the owner will be responsible for taking the rig out of service when the component times out... What do you think, from a safety and operation standpoint?" What would your answer to them be? What incidents and/or accidents would you cite to justify your argument? If you argue something like, "skydivers are not trained enough on their gear or are likely to bend the rules intentionally" - you must show stats to prove skydivers are different than general aviation aircraft owners, that riggers cannot train their customers better AND that stricter rules will cause skydivers to behave differently... P.S. I know a DZ that is tracking reserve dates in their waiver/manifest database based upon the soonest component to time out - battery or packjob, thus protecting themselves and keeping their customer's honest in the same way they won't let an 181 day rig be jumped.... So there are solutions to this at the DZ level too.

Before I was a rigger - $50 seemed so expensive and frustrated me. Now that I am a rigger - I kick the shit out of line twists even if the canopy is in a freefall dive - with "I don't want to pack tonight, I don't want to pack tonight" being my motivation. A packer packing tandem and student canopies can make twice as much money per hour as a rigger! But - I feel every serious skydiver should earn the rigger rating and take ownership of their gear and destiny.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3191905;search_string=porosity%20;#3192322

Not true. Google Chrome - the web browser - knew that the content was unsafe and gave me a warning I posted the screenshot of. Google ads have virus protection. There are tools website operators can use to make sure 3rd party content is clean...

This site is like 100 times faster now!

Typical skydivers. I make a poll that says "don't talk about those silly cruisers or scooters or beach bikes", and within twenty seconds you guys are off topic. DAMMIT... Sport bikes only please! Just kidding...

Yes, it is linked to the Coors add. I got all sorts of popups and weird stuff...

Its bias because it has only my two favorites... Please, no "you really want a Buell" comments - you have only two options! My poll, my rules. Link 1: My favorite brand typically. Link 2: The sexiest new model around that might change my mind.

I actually did check snopes.com! This site is real per a 3rd party, and petfinder.com (the parent company) is respected in the community too. (not fly by night) Go to their website and click the "click here to donate, it's free link" - and the advertising dollars from the banner ads on their site will help needy animals without even clicking on the advertisers links. http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Shameless plug from your resident DZ.com "tdog." If you click, reply, so we can see how much the dz.com community helped!

Well, one could equally argue that a factory authorized service center representative, per the manufacturer's documentation who is officially delegated with the exclusive responsibility to maintain, service and sell the equipment in a certain geographic part of the world, IS acting as the manufacture. But because I like covering my bases - I just might email "the manufacture". Except for when the FAR says it must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer's instructions. Otherwise... Perfect - we agree... So, please show me the exact FAR that says that an AAD equipped rig must be "airworthy" for the entire upcoming "pack window" for a Rigger to pack it and seal it. I think at this point - neither one of us have an FAR that supports our belief - so we are left with how we choose to interpret the ambiguity. You never replied to my previous request to share the exact wording you sent to the FAA regulator, for which you expect a reply this week.... When you do get a reply from the FAA, would you mind sharing the entire chain of conversation?

Borrow a friend's canopy, like a Sabre 2, and see how it changes your landings...

Read this post by SSK. MEL will argue that SSK is not the manufacture and simply a "service center", but they are the ONLY and OFFICIAL service center for the USA, so I think that makes them able to speak on behalf of the manufacture more than you, me, or any other rigger... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2385171;#2385171 You say: It must be pretty difficult because you posted something completely contradictory to the manufacturer's authorized service center's instructions and answers. That is the debate. So, I challenge you to cite the exact rule that specifies what you said. I have been looking for it for days.

Would you mind sharing with us what you sent, maybe the text from your request?

the side of my helmet is so hot you could burn your fingers on it Duck. All sarcasm aside - like the TV show "mythbusters"? I had one of the "Am I missing an Eyebrow" moments... I lost a chunk of hair on inflation one flight - holding the balloon open. I was wearing a wingsuit at the time but it did make me question the hardware on my rig that was exposed enough to look at it carefully. It is a concern. Note to others: if at the last second before the first burner fire, if another ground crew member moves the fan and you feel a steady rush of cool air your way with the pilot's hands on the burner controls - you might not want to stand there for long.

How about $10.79??? This is my favorite rigging supply place, great people: http://djassociates.thomasnet.com/item/special-hardware/fixed-eye-snap-shackle--bronze/3440-a?&forward=1

All this banter about who should be giving gear checks to who, and if someone is a Board of Director of the USPA... I am over it... The fact is, most people don't get gear checks. I have been to maybe 20 DZs in 4 years, and that is a trend from coast to coast. Right or Wrong... So we have to teach students to do gear checks on their own because sooner or later they will be... Mitsuman. Were you taught the "check of threes?". In case not, here it is... I make my AFF students do it from Level 1 on... I recommend it highly. Item 1: The THREE straps. Check each strap, look at them to make sure they are routed correctly. Feel them, a correctly routed strap = metal. (When wearing a wingsuit, feel your leg straps thru your suit). Item 2: The THREE handles. Feel the main. In too far? Out too far? Just right? Feel the cutaway. Actually put a bit of pressure on it. Is the Velcro holding? Feel the reserve, and tug lightly on it? Velcro seated? (This tug part is important... I never did this until I saw a student's handle dangling in the aircraft after two successful "touch the handle, it is there" gear checks. The handle was not properly installed so no velcro was holding it. A light tug is required to check. Item 3: The THREE rings (RSL, 3rings left, 3 rings right). Are they installed correctly? A light tug on the cutaway cable housing will insure the loop is thru the hole on the end of the housing. Feeling the yellow cable leave the housing, go thru the loop and go back into the hard housing on the risers can be done with your thumbs in stereo in less than a second. Checking your bridle routing and pin configurations on the ground, followed by a check of threes when you put on your gear, a check of threes when you board the plane, and a check of threes at altitude will eliminate most gear issues... Even in this world of no gear checks.... Oh... About accessories: "SHAGG"... S hoes - tied H elmet - fits and straps working A ltimeter - Adjusted to zero G oggles - Fits and around neck or thru strap of Helmet so can't be lost. G loves - when needed. You should always do SHAGG before you get to the plane. You will never find yourself missing gear at altitude. True story. Another skydiver said to me (very experienced guy), "You are the instructor on an AFF jump, you don't need SHAGG for yourself, dude!" 10 minutes later he was asking if I had a spare goggles for him so he could video the tandem with his eyes open. SHAGG + 3 checks of threes forever... No need to stop these things when you get 1000 jumps.

from the list: That is like saying, you always get injured on the last ski run of the day - because you stop skiing after the injury, right? When the attempt becomes successful - then they are no longer a serial killer with active status, huh? Based upon the other items in the list, being an underachiever, doing poorly in school, not holding down a job, etc - coupled with this line - where they can't even figure out how to kill themselves, it is a wonder they are so good at killing others. Back on the thread... I think intentional abuse and painful (not humane) killing of animals should be a very serious crime, right up there with intentional killing and abuse of humans.

Expect pretty much a hop-n-pop by most people standards, although I have been to 7K above the ground, so 12K sea level, a few times... If you are wearing a wingsuit - even a hop-n-pop goes a LONG way!