tdog

You mean in a commercial airliner. I read "head down" and was thinking you were freeflying at Zhills. If the vigil is off, nothing will fire. Turn it off before getting on an aircraft that you don't plan on jumping out of.

Hyjacking my own thread, (well kind of, this thread was started so riggers could learn about things to tell their customers)... I am going to see if I can find out.

What will a Cypres do if you get in an aircraft 13 hours 50 minutes after turning it on and start flying? I used the find feature of Acrobat Reader and searched the manual for the words "Hour" and "Minute" and can't find the answer. I assume it will shut off in the aircraft or freefall based upon the manual, but it does not say for sure. I asked a lot of skydivers - and I beg to differ - it is NOT well known. Imagine this - a rigger packs a reserve on a tandem rig at 8 PM. At 10 PM he turns on the AAD as part of his checklist to make sure the unit selftests before putting into service. He puts the rig on the shelf. The next morning the weather gets good and some customers walk in and the DZO decides to open shop on a day that was previously a no jump day. The rigger either thought that it would shut off before the next jump morning, or did not think to turn it off, user error. A tandem instructor shows up after load 1 and grabs a rig. He sees the cypres is on, assuming the load 1 instructor turned it on. The load 1 instructor assumed it was on because DZ policy says the packers turn on all AADs when they open the hangar in the morning. Now - on the plane 14 hours comes.... It sounds far fetched - however many DZ's rigging lofts work late nights when tandem rigs, rental rigs, or student rigs need to be packed due to reserve rides. Packing classes for student rigs are often after sunset. So, I think the Vigil philosophy is great - if it thinks it is above the turn-on altitude, stay on just in case the jumper is jumping. The Vigil has a great display. Too bad it just does not say how many hours and minutes are left next to the mode setting... When you do your gear check, you would say, "damn, 1 hour, who turned this thing on last night, I should reset it." No surprises.

Which is contrary to the Cypres methodologies, where in fact, if you search these forums, users discovered turning the Cypres off consumed more battery life than letting the timer expire, so the industry standard in the field became, "leave it on at the end of the day unless something is very unique." Hence we are back, full circle, to the point of my post... Which was an email I sent to fellow riggers in our area and thought I would share here too.

One more thing in a long list of reasons I don't like vigils. Before this becomes a bash-fest.... What would your Cypres brand AAD do if you turned it on at 11 PM for a night jump then gave it to your friend to jump the next day? I always have been fearful of any device that shuts off automatically. I don't think this is documented in the Cypres owners manual.

I don't think there is any misunderstanding - unless I typed something wrong. Your data is just much more complete. My post was a compilation of things I noticed from multiple sources. That is not what I remember from our call. You said it was 14 hours from the last jump when I asked something like, "Say I drive back to the DZ with it left on all week, notice my Vigil is on, and think my friend must have turned it on for me or I think I already turned it on. Will it stay on all day?" I guess we were not on the same page when I asked the question or my ears were off as I know you gave me lots of good info. I am glad you clarified as that changes my understanding. Moral to the story.... Always turn off before taking home. Always cycle power in the morning before the first jump if you are at all worried. Honestly, there needs to be a lot added to every AAD instruction book. For an example, I searched "30" looking for your 30 minute claim. I found 12 instances of 30 in the PDF document, not one relating to the time you mention. Searching your competitors documentation I find little about their "shutdown logic" in case of long jump days or if the AAD thinks it has left the ground when the 14 hours passes. This is not a Vigil bash - in fact I think you do a similar, if not better job, documenting features, limitations than some competitors, however this 30 minute thing is news to my ears. Thanks for posting.

I sent the attached to all the riggers I work with locally...

Don't take your rig. The alkali soil tarnishes hardware.

Second comment. Your stats are wrong. I copied and pasted this out of the manual - in reference to your +- 6 month comment, it's really 3 months. Granted you always can send it in late, but you can't jump it late. You can't send it in early, they won't work on it: Maintenance ................................. 4 and 8 years from date of manufacture ± 3 months Total lifetime .......................... 12 years from date of manufacture + 3 months maximum Did you check the Cypres I or II manual? For the I's you're correct, it's +/- 3 months. According to the Cypres II manual it's 4 and 8 years +/- 6 months for maintenance and a total lifetime of 12.5 years. Got me... I was thinking the OP was talking about the Cypres 1, since it was not specified... Yes, all the specs are different, as someone pointed out in PMs.... Life, windows, maintenance, etc....

Two comments. 1st, this was my first time I needed to send in one of MY cypres units in... And, even with winter here, there was no "good time". Winter boogies + AFF instruction + having fun year around, taking something out of service sucks... My friend had to rent instead of borrowing my rig and night jumps this next weekend - I wanted my bigger rig with a forgiving canopy for wingsuiting, so I have to move my Vigil from a perfectly packed rig. I am a rigger, most customers don't have that luxury. But I agree - I rather have something that works and is out of service every 4 years than something that does not work.... The reason why I purchased a Vigil is not solely determined by maintenance. Second comment. Your stats are wrong. I copied and pasted this out of the manual - in reference to your +- 6 month comment, it's really 3 months. Granted you always can send it in late, but you can't jump it late. You can't send it in early, they won't work on it: Maintenance ................................. 4 and 8 years from date of manufacture ± 3 months Total lifetime .......................... 12 years from date of manufacture + 3 months maximum

Blueskiesbill, I am happy with my Vigil 2. I have a lot of customers happy with their Vigil 2. I am happy with my Cypres II. I have a lot of customers happy with their Cypres II. However, my friend who was going to borrow my Cypres rig this weekend had to rent instead because I am still waiting for my Cypres to get it's 4 year done. Annoying. I think you could buy whichever one you like and not have any issues. I know BillVon mentioned pressurized aircraft. Three notes - 1, there are very few skydivers who ever will do that. 2, I think Vigil stepped up to the plate and helped everyone out. AND 3. If I understand correctly, the only reason why Cypres did not fire is because they have a minimum altitude programmed in their brain of somewhere around 100 feet. Cypres are not magical, they just had a programming variable that happened to work to their advantage, in an unintended way, when subjected to human error outside of the documented operating conditions. Now - I did attend a seminar at PIA hosted by Airtec (Cypres). It was clear it was an aggressive marketing move to justify the 4 year check and 12 year retirement. In all the propaganda they showed two things caught my eye as stuff I should pay attention to: 1) Xrays of joints on the printed circuit boards. It is clear with age these things corrode, erode, and crack. Microscopic cracks can cause errors or worse, and I know enough about electronics to know no error check at start up can catch every potential error. 2) Videos of cypres cutters of different ages were shown cutting closing loops. There was a loop that was not cut by a retired cypres cutter (although in my mind I thought, "that loop has less tension that the other videos", and someone even raised their hand asking the same question noticing the same thing - Airtec claimed the tests were under the same parameters). So between the fact no one can build a fool proof circuit board and that at least the Cypres brand cutters clearly lose strength after 12 years per the charts, graphs and videos shown at PIA.... I probably will retire my vigil 2 before 20 years. But the way I look at it... Even retired at 12 years, the cost was right, and after watching them for 4 years in the field - including a save - I have enough trust in either brand.

Can you give me a link to the incident report where someone landed under a normal canopy and the device fired? I am confused?

I would also wash the container asap with mild laundry soap and water.... Of course not washing the reserve, aad, and packing data card. Smoke dust is not pH neutral. You really don't need that stuff sitting in the fabric and on all the nice shiny hardware either. Probably overkill, especially if you smoke, but might as well do something while your cypres is at the factory....

Maybe you should also heed your own advice, then. You are right, I misunderstand everything...

Jaw dropped, completely floored, me. Didn't your expert testimony go something like this: Lawyer: "Did you ever ask anyone how to maximize your income as an expert witness?" You: "No" Lawyer: "Did you send this email?" You: "Yes" Lawyer: "Did you ask the recipient of this email how to maximize your income as an expert witness?" You: "Yes" I think, if I am not mistaken, that there is an honesty issue here.... In fact, is it not perjury? Whom are we to pray to so you will be honest?

Unless, of course, user error is or could be the cause of the incident. Everything the skydiver says in error indicates their knowledge of the sport and procedures.

In 2009 the same attorney held a 2 hour seminar that ended up going for 5 or 6 hours, where 1 hour of video depositions were shown, including Mark Schlatter and Dan Poynter's testimony. It turns out the judge in that case did not let in expert testimony except for one witness OR video of test jumps with gear "damaged" in the same way (pilotchute cap torn from the fabric on a reserve) - where the gear even torn, worked every time... The plaintiff admitted in the deposition that, I kid you not (I watched the video with my own eyes) that 1) She did not know the size of the reserve. 2) That on a 10 way she did not need to track from the formation, but simply turn 180 degrees and pull in place, 3) that she switched types of gear without training, 4) that an AAD was inappropriate for her skillset, 5) that she pulled her handles in the wrong order (although she did not admit that in those words, her physical demonstration showed she did not know how to pull them). I think that Bob did NOT suggest that he should have settled - he insisted that the way to win cases was to stay strong... But he did say that he was absolutely shocked that the Judge would not let in the testimony of any of the people who could have shown that the Plaintiff's knowledge of gear, or that the plaintiff's reasoning for the gear failure, was flawed, specifically the manufacture of the reserve parachute or Bill Booth. He basically said they lost not because of the nature of the facts, but because of how the Judge managed the case. Oh, and Mark Schatter lied in the deposition - and he admitted it when he was handed an email he sent someone else. Specifically he sent an e-mail to Dan Poynter, not knowing Dan was already retained by the Defense, asking how to maximize his revenue as an expert witness. Under oath he said he never asked that question, until he was handed a copy of the email and admitted he sent it.

I agree with the first half. I disagree with the second half. A good attorney should be able to argue to the jury that design improvements after an incident show a company that is proactive and cares, and that the case and findings should be based upon knowledge the manufacture had at the time of the incident. I would hope the lawyers would be able to successfully argue that improvements to designs - because we learn from our shortcomings - is a fundamental part of design.... Not every future configuration or user error can be seen until the product is used and field results come in. I attended a very interesting seminar at PIA this year, hosted by a well known skydiving lawyer... Between that, knowing a lot of lawyers, and being a business person myself - I understand this is a tough case - but one that must be fought to protect our sport. Precedent matters. Tandem skydiving = turbine operations. But - you all know lawyers are reading this. Perhaps even the plaintiff's family. It might cost Ted much more to defend stuff said here than what he will get from TK's advertisement for a defense fund... So, I would suggest people be careful talking about an active lawsuit.

Well - popping the reserve without the rigger present changed the job from a "replace the loop" to "inspect and repack"... Granted, you said you were gonna change riggers anyway, so it might be irrelavent as most riggers won't reseal another riggers work without a full inspection, however....

I don't do 182. I only have a few 206 and all higher levels. Rest king air and otter... 1. n/a 2. COA: Circle of Awareness.... Horizon, look to the horizon and pick something way out in the distance to look at. Altitude. Look to your alti and read it. Look to your instructor on that side and smile. Wait for a thumbs up. Look to the other instructor and stick out your tongue. Thumbs up.... I found recently that really emphasizing that they should geek their instructor relaxes them and lets them know that this is not super intense, but that communication can be two way and this is a moment of communication. Short circles. After teaching 200+ students in 25+ fjc - I stopped calling them short circles in lecture but still have the term in the training videos and paperwork... I found it too similar to COA - and the students were doing full circle and I was reteaching too often. So I instead call it "geek and have fun time" "This is your time to look and find something cool to look at, check your alti, then look out again." 3. Hard deck.... I assume you mean when the instructors pull. Well, we teach 5.5K for wave and pull. I have pulled for the student right at 5.5K and given the pull signal higher knowing they were out to lunch. I have also let the student go to 4K without assisting or reminding them. Someone who is out to lunch the entire skydive vs someone who fumbled a tad finding the handle but was doing everything right and just needed a tad of time to learn... I think the actual hard deck is instructor discretion, but I think we all are going to be really concerned at 4K if things are not happening. Pull priorities... I printed a few years back the USPA SIM priorities word for word and put that on the wall. PULL, PULL RIGHT ALTI, PULL STABLE. 4. Decision alti - I assume you mean when we teach a student they should have a working canopy or get a new one.... 5. In an Otter and King Air, yes... I mean, not right in the door... But on the bench right next to the door.

The reason I got up to leave - my cell phone rang so I could "buzz someone in" my house. I had to go meet that person.... Otherwise, I would have.... Just to see what homeless people type in their emails. Probably doing some budget and finance report for one of the large corporations or something...

Two nights ago I went to the urban park next to the building in which I live - armed with my Dog and Laptop... Dog ran around, sniffed butts, met some other dogs he might want to date, etc... I worked on laptop for about an hour. I was sitting next to a clearly homeless guy - one that consumes his fair share of cheap alcohol too... Or maybe he has a home and just never changes his clothes or takes a shower and likes to push around a highly customized shopping cart full of all of life's necessities. When I got up, he said, "Excuse me sir." I looked over - KNOWING HE WANTED MONEY. He walked closer. He said, "I don't mean to bother you - but do you have Internet access on your laptop as I would like to check my email."

Add one thing.... Tie a string around the cutter and when you push the cutter out, pull the string thru the channel where the wire runs... Tie both ends of the string together once the cutter is removed. For installation, you can use the string, tied onto the cutter again, to pull the cutter thru the channel.... Some rigs it is a waste of time. Other rigs - this technique is important for sanity...

Why. As a rigger, I don't think that is a good recommendation. Know your gear, this is not the transmission of a car... It is simpler, yet more important for your survival. Further - if you do all the shipping yourself, you are in control - especially when the rigger is a busy full time guy who might have multiple shipments a week and consolidates...

Someone who is going to buy a new container that will last 5 sizes of mains can afford the $200 or $300 more an optimum costs. Plus, it flies better than almost every other reserve, making it worth the money.