tdog

When the instructors let go?

In one of my lines of work, the work we do is just as dangerous as skydiving if done wrong, and the skills required are just as hard to learn... I know, because I came 2" from killing my best friend when I pushed the wrong hydraulic lever on a staging system and broke a piece of plate steel causing 1000 pounds of metal to land in my friend's shadow. It touched him as it passed. I see no difference in skydiving... If someone screws up badly and does not analyze why - just saying "I will never do it again" is not good enough... Do you think my friend would have trusted me again if I did not rewrite the procedures our company used to prevent the same mistake twice??? Do you think the manufacture would have allowed me to keep my certification, if I did not help them rewrite the manual and redesign the system that failed? Just my two cents... It scares me whenever I see someone screw up and not take immediate actions to prevent it in the future other than saying, “Sorry, my bad, never again.” We are on the same page I think - no need to debate much...

And what about AFF instructors? I am past that, but did wonder...

Our company has a few hundred employees, so I am used to people screwing up. I like neither response above - but I do like, "I screwed up BECAUSE I did this, this, and this. If I learn to do this, I will fix the problem." But, I agree in concept, no excuses.

I took the "class" - because I wanted to. It was informal. A rigger taught it after hours. The class was free. Gratuity optional only to the rigger who donated his time off the clock... I thought that was fair. He has to feed his family too.

My experience went like this: 1) Went to "packing class" taught by a rigger. Did a single pack job no one with a brain should jump. I was very ill prepared to pack my own rig. But I knew the concepts. We opened the pack job on the ground and it was decided it was packed correctly. 2) A weekend after, I asked the packers if I could “practice” on a rig. A friend saw me struggle and took 2 hours to teach me one on one. We talked about each step and did each more than once. 3) I pulled apart the rig we just packed together, and packed it again unsupervised (well, the riggers and my friend glanced from a distance). Without digging into the d-bag, my friend inspected the bridal and other things. I jumped it - and it worked. Got my A requirement signed off... Weekend over… 4) I showed up to the DZ the last weekend and jumped a rental rig... Came back to the packing hangar and saw a line. Normally rental gear has to be packed by the packers at my DZ unless you are working to get the proficiency card signed, but I asked if I could “practice”. So I packed it... Then Jumped. Then Packed. Then Jumped. No one was supervising, some people walked by and gave a pointer, but I was able to “fine tune” a lot of the parts I struggled with the first time around. Except for the fact I was paying thru the nose for the rental (which included a packing fee) - I felt like a real jumper. And, it was nice to watch the “pros” pack next to me and see their advanced techniques, and ask them a ton of questions. For me - six unsupvervised pack jobs (one not jumped due to weather) before my A, and I am not done yet.

I saw one DZ, a big one, that I plan on jumping at, on the list of their requirements, say Note - they did not use "Cypres" as a slang without AAD like "kleenex" without tissue - and they did not just say "AAD" - so I can only assume they really mean they want a Cypres and not some other brand... That was enough for me to buy the Cypres this time around. I don't want to have to ever prove my gear as safe to a DZ. For the price war to work (and by the way, I know from my own business that low pricing = what you pay for, so I don't know if I want a price war) - the community will have to respect both brands as being two sides of the same coin. I actually hope that instead of a price war, it is a quality and feature war. But knowing a laptop computer costs less than $1000 these days, and the most expensive VCR at BestBuy is less than $100, I would hope the age of electronics would make all AADs more cost effective.

I have packed it as much as I can. I am told there is a somewhat enforced rule at the DZ - that as long as you are a student - you can pack the "rental rigs" for your own use to earn the requirement of the A - but as soon as you have your A - a DZ packer must pack DZ owned equipment... Technically I have earned the "A" packing requirement by now, but I am not stopping until they kindly ask me not to pack anymore. The reason for the rule - if there is a cutaway or damage - no pointing fingers to who packed it... That being said, since my gear won't be here for two months, I am packing as much as I can now, to stay current... Plus, it is rewarding for me to see my own handy work when it opens flawlessly. And, I have found that I am now quick enough that packing my own rig is quicker than waiting for a packer.

Since I don't pay for my bandwidth, and logs exist, it is not that easy for me... Someone else, go to town, I can't...

I have it on TIVO (because I was jumping when it aired) - thank god for modern technology... I don't know what the copyright police would say if I uploaded it, and my current home computer does not like the firewire anymore ever since I broke the port... But, if you PM me, perhaps I could get it on DV or something. The show synopsis: 1) Bill Coe and PD employees show the making of a PD parachute, including the laser cutting, basic airfoil/ram air discussion, inspection of fabric, sewing, strength testing, etc. 2) Bill Booth shows how a parachute deploys from the container, and discusses the change from a ripcord to pull out PC. 3) This history of the parachute (about 3 minutes) 4) The host does a tandem. The "b-roll" footage is the PD factory team (I think) swooping ponds and stuff, and what appears to be a skyhook intentional cutaway. Also footage from WWII and parachutes slowing down space capsules into the ocean. The host does a cutaway in a harness simulator. Good video to show friends and parents…

Per your previous post introducing yourself, you have done tandems, right, but no further training???? If that is the case, let me give you a tidbit more information, just in case this is an issue that might have you a bit nervous, as I was when I had the same question two months ago when I was still in AFF... In my poll http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1322083;#1322083 I asked the same question and found some interesting ratios... When I asked someone who happened to have a reserve ride while teaching me, what was his reserve history, he said… “I had 1000 jumps and no reserve rides, and then three this year, two this month... The only thing I changed was my canopy." Note – the canopy he was flying, with the wing loading in pounds per square foot of canopy, requires more than 1000 jumps of experience to do somewhat safely, so it is something most people never use. But – the point being – some expert canopies can have higher chances of reserve rides because they are more twitchy and less forgiving. I have talked to a few people right after their rides - and the general consensus is - no big deal. They had practiced the maneuver so many times the real thing was easy… You asked what types of things cause malfunctions… These are the general concepts: 1) You pull the pilot chute and you can’t pull it, or once you pull it, the canopy never makes it overhead and open. Basically – a total malfunction, nothing is slowing you down. You need your reserve immediately. 2) The canopy opens up overhead, and it generally is slowing you down, but for some reason you cannot control it. These slow malfunctions you have some time to analyze and try to fix before using a reserve. 3) The canopy ends up overhead and either never opens past a ball, or once it is open you find yourself spinning real fast. These high speed malfunctions generally require immediate cut away and pull reserve. Anyway, I hope I gave you some tidbits of info to answer your questions.

This is a recurring theme, that caught me off guard. The airport/dz I am jumping at has an elevation of 5052 feet. Or normal exit altitude is just under 18K above sea level to make a 12-13K jump. I wonder, how much does your normal "base line" altitude adjust your tolerance for hypoxia, and how long does it take to establish a base line? In other words: 1) If my bed I sleep in every night is at 5,296' (which it is) - and I get in a plane to 18K the next morning - will I likely suffer the same hypoxia as someone who lives at sea level and goes up to 18K above their DZ? I.E. The net change in altitude vs. total altitude? 2) If I travel to sea level and am there for, lets say, 24 hours before I jump, will I have a higher tolerance for altitude than some of the locals? How long before my tolerance “wears off”? 3) If a friend visits me from sea level, and has only been here for, lets say, 24 hours, and then gets in a plane to 18K, will he suffer greater hypoxia? How long before my friend gets “more tolerance”? Perhaps off topic of the thread, but still worth discussing since someone might get the impression they can jump something they can't w/out O2 by this thread.

Don't get broken. (That covers the more terminal side of the same coin too.) And... Learn. Have fun. Make more friends.

I lived in Malibu California when the fires came thru in 93... A chain link fence across the street turned into puddles of metal - like something you would see in the movies... I would suggest lots of wood, and perhaps jet fuel just to be sure.

I just learned something. Thank you... It was not something I had programmed into my mind.

From a fresh student to instructors, it worked for me: I have to admit, looking back at AFF1 and 2 - you kind of feel alone out there since you don't look eye to eye with the instructors. What you see is this vast airspace and nothing else that you can touch except for air. It is the first time you are in this new world. You know your instructors are there, you see them for a few seconds on the COA, but you know they are working, perhaps as hard as you are. Also, when you have instructors holding onto you, you have this sense of “need” because you have never done this task without them. If they suddenly both disappeared – could you survive without them??? How hard are they really working? Are they still holding on? Am I doing this right? On my AFF3 - I lost an instructor on exit... My main side. He came out front and we looked eye to eye and gave me good feedback, like a nod, a twist of the head like "damn good" and a smile... I suddenly knew I was flying myself, that I did not need him holding on… All of a sudden, instead of me being a wind dummy controlled by my instructor’s grips, I was actually flying! Now I could interact with the instructors instead of being controlled by the instructors. This was my turning point – and when the instructors commented, “I could tell you were having fun by the grin on your face.” My debrief went like, "On exit I ended up under you, so I let go. By the time I got back, you were stable and did not need me - so there was no need for me to grab on and screw it up. So I decided to come out front and say hi. Did you see me fly back to your side at pull time just in case you needed help???" Just my observations.

Food for thought... My good self-employed friend has gone without health insurance for his whole adult life. He is 28 years old, and in good health. He then purchased insurance, but the one with the low premium and high deductibles designed for catastrophic events. He basically has to self-insure all normal routine stuff. We went on some real technical mountain biking up at Aspen. We pushed our limits. There was more than one section where there was absolutely no stopping – brakes were useless on the gravel, and my ass was behind the rear tire praying my CG would not move forward, and we were trucking… We stopped in the woods for rest. He started moving again and lost his grip on the flattest part of our trip. It might as well have been a road. He was not even moving. His knee landed on a sharp rock. Clean cut – as if a knife did it. The point – it was the easy stuff that got him, not when he expected it… We rode down to the EMT who said, "I have never seen a patella before." Long story short – he lost 1/3 of his blood, and he had to have his knee cleaned with a scope and stay overnight at the hospital. Specialists were called in on a Sunday. $65,000 bill Kaiser negotiated to $45,000 for which his 20% was $9,000. And, I did not even charge him for the “ambulance ride” I gave him in my 4-runner. Imagine if the onsite EMT called a helicopter or ambulance to the middle of the mountain. I don’t think I would do many activities, like rollerblading, snowboarding or (insert sport name here) without health insurance… The hospitals know how to collect money, and doctors DO ask, “Is this a self pay?” If you can't get the Cadillac of insurance, get the type that has a high deductible. Having an insurance company negotiate on your behalf is great, and at least you know the hospital will get paid a lot, so they are less likely to come after your assets when you tell them you need a while to pay back your share. That is just my experience and opinion.

Despite the gear issues, here is what I learned: The frame by frame is a wonderful example of how a reserve deploys and the freebag leaves. I think this video has a lot of training merit to it... If nothing else, it reminded me to consider the fact that any jumper's gear may "fire" at any time for any reason... I am glad you all are all safe.

Davelepka, Our posts crossed in the mail, meaning I did not see this post until after my last post... Then you posted again before I got this all typed… So… As I said, I am very excited about working with some great coaches on canopy control. I am trying to get a well-respected nationally known coach to visit our DZ for a class too, to supplement the local guy’s classes. I agree, after learning paragliding (where I am just a novice too), where 100% of the paragliding training is on canopy, I found some gaping holes in AFF that were so fundamental in paraglidng we never left the ground until we had them nailed. Even after landing a canopy of some sort over my head many more times than my skydiving #s show, I KNOW I need more training to be safe and live long. But, don’t all we? Who ever gives up learning? But, I want to work on both canopy control and freefall skills, since each is something I can learn and practice together, not on the same day or with the same instructor, but on every jump after the respective class. The reason why I did not talk about canopy control in this thread originally is because the discussion group is titled “Wind Tunnels” not “Wind Tunnels and Canopy Skills.” In spite of that, you do have some very valuable points that I respect a lot. I welcome your canopy views, and actually, since a good friend of mine died under a beginner paragldier canopy, I know first hand how important it is to control the one thing that saves your life on every jump. I think, if you would meet me in person, you would find we are on the same page and have the same priorities. That is my decision, and I am sticking to it. Instead of choosing one or the other, I am doing BOTH! If I had to pick one over the other, I probably would choose canopy first. With respect, T.

Thanks for all the advice you guys have given me... I am signing up this week... And for the canopy control stuff, well there is a workshop taught locally. I am signed up for that too, and have talked with one of the instructors about when the next class is being offered... Thanks again.

I am NOT qualified to give instructor type advice, other than my AFF being fresh in my memory and I have just walked in your shoes. I know once or twice I felt some of the stuff I did in AFF did not, in your terms, “go that well”. In my debrief, I used the terms, “I was able to do it, but it was sloppy.” Remember, each level in AFF builds on previous levels skills – so you will get to continue to practice and work on skills as you go along. I know nothing about your experience or instructor's opinion - my only point is to say, don't expect everything to feel perfect on your second, or, in my case, my 16th jump. But things will get better. About the feet... Ask your instructor about toe taps. Taping your toes against each other requries you to know where your feet are... I can't feel the wind on my feet very much, but I can "learn" where my feet are by a tap. This is what worked for me...

Let me pull out both hands for all ten fingers and count these up.... Lets see.... That would be a big-fat-zero... I wish that was a poll answer.... But, in a month and a half, it will be one... I am so looking forward to it.

I disagree with the list, in my humble inexperienced opinion... I don't push it with my friends, but they are genuinely interested and have some really good questions that you might expect someone to ask at a FJC. I mean the first week or two I was bouncing off the walls and could not help boring them with my experiences, but I have calmed down. I found out two older female business acquaintances, one employee, and one vendor, both jumped round parachutes in the early 80’s. If I would have kept quiet, I would have never learned about their past or been able to ask them about the skydiving culture from back then. Our office manager, who a month and a half ago wouldn't even think of a roller coaster, let alone a tandem - asked me if I would arrange for a tandem for her. She saw some of the videos I downloaded and asked a bunch of fair honest questions… She then said, “I want to be a stronger person and overcome some of my silly fears. The only way I can do that is face them head on.” I told her skydiving is not a game, it is serious. I think she is mentally ready to be a “good” tandem candidate right now, I think she has it in her. My good friend asked me to do a big favor for his business. I found $200 on my account at the DZ as a thank you, with a "please let me come out and watch you jump sometime" message attached. So far, the only people who are not 100% supportive are my parents… I can’t knock them for being worried about me, even at 29 years old… But, from conversation, ¾ of all their fears are unjustified due to lack of knowledge of the equipment, and ¼ are completely justified… Education, I hope, will help them rest easy about the ¾ that is unjustified. Now, I do have to admit, I wore my "Jumps from Perfectly Good Airplanes" shirt in downtown Palm Springs California when I was there on work- and if I only had a penny for everyone who gave me the "he is insane" or "does he really" double take. 2.5 seconds was the average double take time...

I parked my car at the DZ and saw my best friend was already there. He was standing in the parking lot buck ass naked! I said, "Dude! Why the hell are you naked?". He was holding a large box of jello shots and a box of chicken. I said, "the shots will come in handy latter, but what fo' that chicken?" I'm going to make chicken swoop when I can get a can-o-pea. But with all that said, I still wondered why the HELL he was standing there naked. I was scared. Just then two more of my friends also came into the parking lot with nothing but their rigs on and said... I guess you did not get our voicemail - but we have already put you on load one. I started to get nervous... holy shit... I can't get naked.. then they will... KNOW! So, I decided to do the only logical thing and play dead. It didn't work, so I had to play sick... That did not work either... So. I told them. "Don't laugh, but I have a tatoo that you might see when we leave the plane."

I parked my car at the DZ and saw my best friend was already there. He was standing in the parking lot buck ass naked! I said, "Dude! Why the hell are you naked?". He was holding a large box of jello shots and a box of chicken. I said, "the shots will come in handy latter, but what fo' that chicken?" I'm going to make chicken swoop when I can get a can-o-pea. But with all that said, I still wondered why the HELL he was standing there naked. I was scared. Just then two more of my friends also came into the parking lot with nothing but their rigs on and said... I guess you did not get our voicemail - but we have already put you on load one...