Michele

A few things I've heard discussed today about the tape. 1. The voice has been authenticated by the CIA, according to many news outlets...so it is something that we can reasonably be sure is him. 2. It seems, from some of the linguists I've heard discussing this, that OBL did not write the entire speech, and that some one, likely an egyptian, is the second writer. Zawahiri is egyptian, iirc. 3. The timing of the written speech is likely not in the last few days; i.e., not as a result of the Pakistani strike. There is no mention of that, and the items which are mentioned happened in late November and/or December '05. 4. And this, to me, is a very interesting point...the "truce" OBL/AQ is asking for is not a truce, when you consider it's terms. What he/they are asking for is a surrender...get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we will not attack you. That isn't a truce, per se...rather, it's more of a conditional demand for surrender. It's very interesting, what's happening. I again assert that OBL is a wily sob, and can play the media like a violin. He is very current in his comments (which is why we can date them to a reasonable degree of certainty), and pays attention to Mainstreet, USA. That's who he's addressing, not the government. He's talking to us. Just some thoughts... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Chromy, I've seen pictures of your bum. It's so flat, it makes me wonder if you use TP? (Good to see you in this morphed form...) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

So what you're suggesting is to use the "truce" to kidnap and either hold or kill him? That I agree with. I don't think it will happen...but I agree with that premise. But he will not voluntarily surrender...and I think it would be very tough to "negotiate" a face to face meeting with him wherein there would be the possibility of a kidnap scenario succeeding without massive ramifications to both those who set out to kidnap/kill him or to those he surrounds himself with that are, in effect, 'just there to negotiate peace' and can claim to be innocent. It's a no win, what you're suggesting, although brighter minds than mine may find a way...and should they do so, I say "more power to them! Rock fucking ON!" Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Bill, if you really believe that a truce will net you OBL and other higher ups in AQ, you're far more idealistic that even I gave you credit for...that's not a truce, that's a surrender. And that's not on the table. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

And thus the divisiveness begins. Bill, what you're not including in your analyzation is the fact that the many headed hydra will continue to operate on their own (as it's been designed to...), and the attacks can continue. Because of that, and OBL's "plausible deniability", we get stuck right between the rock and the hard place. It isn't going to work, this potential truce. Additionally, the tape is directed at the American people, not the government...why? To continue a full court press to make the "war" a thing of argument, to erode the confidence (even further) of what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. additionally, iirc, this is the first time OBL has indicated that he has influence in Iraq. Whether he does, does not, or does a bit is left to be seen. But it's a wily conversation he is having with the American public (note well he is not addressing the government, the ones who could negotiate a truce...) and doing what he can to place pressure on the government via the people of the US...and that is media savvy at it's best, manipulation again extraordinarily wily. And make no mistake, OBL is many things; media savvy and wily are just a few. It will be interesting to see how many people fall for this...can't see through it; and don't understand the entire picture before jumping on the "negotiate a truce" bandwagon. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Speedy, my take on the "truce" aspect of this is simple. OBL and AQ cannot "rebuild" anything, as they are not a country, coherent or cohesive group, and/or government which could rebuild anything. I see it as more of a ploy, so when new attacks occur, they can say "hey, we offered a truce; it's the evil west that refused to negotiate one with us, so we have no choice." They know we are not going to negotiate, nor is there anyone to negotiate with (remember the hydra analogy? The independent cells? The different independent leaders for different regions?? There's no-one to negotiate with, for cripe's sake...). So it's a prebuilt excuse to allow them to carry on with their attacks, and be able to give some people a reason to feel we (the "west") should've/could've prevented it. OBL is not a stupid man...and this will bring a devisiveness to the table (as you've already seen), and allow them perceived impunity. Just another way to split and divide... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Dude. Relax. You know, the thing you do so well? Go ahead. Take a breath...breathe...and breathe again. Now, as to my comment re: Dekker, he's someone who I've spoken with for years. We are almost always on different sides of the issue. He and I have been able to keep it civil for - what, something like 4 years now - and for that, he gets some credit. As for "way to argue the issue" perhaps I don't think it needed arguing? Perhaps, see, I think he has the right to say what he does, and while I don't agree, I can understand his POV? I' ve discovered that if Dekker (or anyone) wants to go somewhere, I don't have to go just because he said to. It's that whole new fangled woman has a brain and can make her own decision thing... MB, breathe...and realize that slamming me for not responding could perhaps be something that is less of an issue than you make it out to be. See, I am choosing to take it as a compliment; you believe that I am the only one here who could argue the point effectively...and are disappointed that I didn't. Sorry to disappoint you. But it's all right; I'm sure I'll do that again in the future. Yeah, isn't it? What's so funny is when someone accuses another of cliquish behavior for not being part of a behavior pattern one might expect with a clique! ROFL! Have a great day. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

No, I don't watch the Daily Show. Perhaps he stole it from me? (Did he really say something about gooey chocolate and peanut brittle and everyone being a twit??) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

No-one is really thinking about this at all. See, I'm a chocolate afficionado. In the heat, however, no matter how good the chocolate is, it melts. Add water to it, and then you've got gooey chocolate. how in the hell can one build a city with gooy chocolate?? No, what we need is a peanut brittle city. Nagin's a twit, and so is Robertson and Clinton. Just build the damned city, and get the lives of the people (of all colors, races, ethnicities, classes) back to something livable and workable. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Jack. Oh my dear friend. Please let TLYL know she's loved, and that I am thinking good, comfort thoughts her way. I'm sending my love, and my hugs, to her to help her get through this time. Know also that no matter how peaceful it was, the grieving process is still real, still big, still overwhelming. Grieve with her, let her have all her feelings; celebrate her Mom's life, and cry when needed. You are a dear one, and she is a dear one as well. My love and hugs and thoughts and prayers are headed your way. And do keep warm. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Thanks for making my point...pity it's lost on some other people. Oh well...Dekker's a decent guy, so I'll still give him credit, though. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

ROFL. 2 points for you, Rehmwa. Maybe even 2.5! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Er, Bill? I don't think "we" need to make the Iranian prez look insane. He's doing a damned fine job all by himself. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

The Hydra that is AQ has many heads, in many locations, with many hands attached to those heads. OBL is not necessarily someone who likes the publicity; he isn't one to claim responsibility for actions in a rapid sense; on occasion, he has never claimed it. He is not a media hound in the sense we tend to think about it. He has used it, appropriately for his messages, but doesn't run around like Arafat did, or like others. He slides through the underground, getting his messages out when it suits him, not when it suits us, and not at our goading (and we've tried, many times.). He's a wily SOB, no doubt... Is he alive? Or is he dead? I'd think that if he were dead, there would be information and confirmation of it. But I've been wrong many times before, and will be again. He might be; however, one can't base that conclusion on the lack of media/public statements, in my opinion. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Good questions; sorry I haven't got any answers. I do have experience, though, as similar stuff has happened to me. And the best advice I can give is simply this: time gives perspective. After a while, you won't care any more, and when you don't care any more, you become free from the anger and the hurt. I don't mean to say 'go and trust them again', simply that you will stop caring about them, and when you do, they will no longer have any power over you and your life. And that's a great feeling. Just my .02, learned the hard way as well. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I'm not sure, but iirc, Clinton had advocated regime change as well as acknowledged the "credible" evidence of WMD. In this thread, I'm speaking for someone else, so I may be completely incorrect, but the thought seems to be that if they (the Clinton Admin) believed both of those, then why didn't they take strong action, and if they didn't believe it, why did they say it? And also, when everyone on the left is screaming Bush is an asshole, perhaps people are just pointing out that there are other politicians that are assholes, too? Again, I find myself speaking for someone else, and I am uncomfortable with that. So I'll just let this be where it ends, all right? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Crozby, I think the issue with Clinton here is simply that he had 8 years in office, knew of the danger that OBL and AQ posed, and was not aggressive enough to stop this monster. If one really wants to track the rise of OBL/AQ, they need to start back in Carter's reign, and look carefully at what happened between the USSR, Afghanistan, and the US...and research where and what OBL was doing at this time, including his stay in Sudan (circa 1996, iirc). As for the documents, Salman Pak is not new news...perhaps the documentation from SH is new, but we were very aware of Salman Pak and it's training capacities for a long, long time. It will be interesting to see what the rest of the documents show, and if they prove accurate and authentic. Frankly, there is a connection, but not necessarily one which is rock solid, perfect, and absolutely clear cut. It's the nature of the terrorist business, I'd guess. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

My Dad served in B/C/I, one of the most underdiscussed theatre of WWII... Dad tells some great stories, especially about the one time he almost had to bail out of a plane as they crossed "The Hump" into China. But this is a thread about Europe, so I'll back out now. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Officially? I don't think so. Unofficially, the count is somewhere between the neighborhood of 200 (from one count) to maybe 5 (another count). In other words, yes they have them, but no-one (except them) are sure how many they have. Israel is not part of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Agreement, and it has not been pressed as an issue with them (as far as I know; I haven't researched this lately, so things may have changed...) This is starting to play out interestingly...very interestingly. Sharon dying and most certainly out of power, his new mainstream party on the rocks, and he having turned moderate and pulled out of Gaza...while his apparent successor is not likely to be voted back in, and instead perhaps a hardliner like Netenyahu come in, especially with the threat from Iran's president (I can't see a liberal being elected there at the moment, no matter how hard I try...). With the knowledge that Israel has nukes, and the threat to them from Iran, I think it's going to get really, really dicey in the next few years (3 or sooner) over there. Very, very dicey. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I gave up after 30ish minutes. Apparently, I'm too stupid to understand the rules. D'oh!! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Well said, well said. I am wondering what the future will hold, especially if Ben Netenyahu gets into power. I'm thinking that Iran will get thumped rather badly if that's the case, and if so, there will be problems... Sharon will not survive this; a 9 hour surgery yesterday, and another 5 hour one today. Add his age, and generally poor health, and we are watching someone fight a losing battle. God speed, and good rest. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

No kidding. Me? 40/30/No limit. The upper age limit has far more to do with how he and I interact...and how comfortable I feel. I have had a 73 year old man hit on me, and while it was fun to flirt, it was also a problem (he was married...). He was the stereotypical horny old man...and those I can do without. But I know a 60 year old I'd love to play with...and as 'Mama said, should Sean Connery come knocking, I'd not turn him down. While I'd prefer a partner to be somewhat closer to my age, it's strictly a case by case basis. We 40 year olds (and beyond) are just reaching our peak sexually. Problem is, most 40 year old men are not available. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Take a breath, step back, and realize that while this indeed does suck, it's better to have had it happen NOW then three days from closing, and they can't get the loan funded. That, my friend, is major suckage. If it was going to fall apart, to have it happen before it was taken off the market, and before you had everything packed and a house lease signed for your new place, is the time that's best. As for them, well...all I know is that what goes around, comes around, and people who don't think things through tend to get themselves in a muddle. Tell your son *I* think he's one cool cat...at 7, to get there, cap their knees, and then come home for oreos is a darned good kid. Hugs to you, and hi to Chuck and Katie! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

It's those three hours which piss me off, and I am simply an observer of events. I have no idea why they waited, and any reason that could possibly be conceived of is utter bullshit. They knew; they needed to say something...and they didn't, for many, many hours. There is NO excuse, reasoning, or explanation that I would accept for that delay. Utter bullshit. Ciels- MIchele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Pat Robertson is a twit. Darius, I can understand your upset at Sharon; he has a checkered past at first glance. However, can I ask if you felt the same way when Yassir Arafat, arguably far more of a "baddie" than Sharon, died? And if not, why not? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~