Michele

Oh my fucking word...damned scary stuff.... JE, maybe downloading the updates? That helped me. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hi, Vanilla... Sorry to hear you're dealing with insomnia. Yeuccccccccchhhhh... So, when I've had several days of sleeplessness, there is usually lots of pressure going on - real or just in my mind doesn't matter....I do several things in this order (trying one, and moving to the next if it doesn't work). 1. All caffeine and high sugar content stuff stops at 6 pm... 2. Write out a list of things you're thinking about. Get it out of your head, and onto paper. Once it's outside, you can usually manage to keep it outside. 3. If writing about it doesn't work (and sometimes it doesn't), I lay there in bed, look at each thing which pops into my head, mentally "wrap" it up like a christmas present, and tuck it away on a mental shelf, promising myself that tomorrow I will think about it. Right now, it's sleep time, and that's the priorty. I remind myself that brilliant strokes of genius generally do not occur when I am this tired, and that gnawing at the problem at night is not a way to produce the desired outcome (a resolution I can live with). Furthermore, there are things to do during the day - worry is one of them - which interfere with things necessary at night (sleep, relaxation). If something needs to be addressed, midnight is not the time to do so...tomorrow at 9 am may be, but 9pm is not, nor bedtime. 4. If I still can't sleep - I get up, and do something distracting and which produces immediate success...clean the fridge, vaccuum, tidy...something that I can look at and say "there. I did that". Then I try to sleep again. 5. If all else fails, and to break the cycle of "I'm so tired I can't even sleep", I use TylenolPM or ExcederinPM. Worst case, when I haven't slept in a long while, I have other, stronger prescription stuff which I use, but I try to limit that to a very infrequent occurrance. Hope it helps...I hate being where you are. And I get there unfortunately often... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Made me smile, Rob, and remember the birth of both my niece and nephew...thanks for that. Welcome, new life...welcome to possiblities, to joy, to laughter..welcome. Hugs to all- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I update when something changes...jump numbers, acquiring gear, that kind of thing. I wish there would be more regular updating, but hey, it's all good... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

It's not them being "young" male which is a "cause" of the problem, I don't think. There's something else....just what, I am not sure. The numbers would indicated the following (keep in mind I've had a single cuppa coffee this morning...) Male:female:unknown 38:2:4 (total 44) Age ranges for all males: 18-24: 5 25-30: 10 31-35: 4 35-40: 4 41-54: 4 45+= 5 Unknown:10 Females: 2 Total 44 15 happened between 18-30 years of age 17 happened over the age of 31. 2 others were female 10 others are unknown Total: 44 If you arbitrarily restrict w/l based on age, nearly 1/2 of the past few years' deaths *may* not have happened...but more than half *may* still have occurred. With +/- 25% of the data incomplete, no solid and significant conclusion can be drawn. 25% added to any particular "group" would change the numbers determinately one way or another... While I will concur that it does look like males are more prone to dying under a full canopy in a low turn situation, I cannot agree that the majority sits with "young" males under the age of 30...the numbers are too incomplete to support a solid conclusion that way. I also agree with your point that with a significant amount of people who skydive have UNDER 300 jumps. Interesting discussion so far. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

If there is no database, all we will ever have is hearsay and inaccuracies...And there is no database, and it's not a required reporting to the USPA, right? Therefore, we will not be able to access that data. So we look at what we have....which is the fatalities reports. And just really curious, hasn't the rallying cry been "dying under fully operational canopies"? I thought so, or I wouldn't have bothered with 8-9 hours worth of typing, researching, and compilation of data.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

In a recent poll I stuck up in Canopy Control forum, only 27% of the jumpers had taken the class. You yourself haven't yet (not picking at you, Lis, just making a point). And you're at one of the biggest DZ with the best instructors around... It hasn't been made mandatory, and will not under some of the proposals I've seen here. It's a numbers thing...at 100 jumps, X is allowed. At 200 jumps, Y..300? Z...but not mandatory training classes. You'd have to meet certain requirements, but it you picked it up from someone without going through the training, is that the same thing? By setting an example, by standing up and doing it...I have, to date, had 7 people tell me because of my talking about it, and doing it, they are taking a canopy control class. Yes, it was UNcool. You know what I dealt with. But there are at least 7 people who saw what the benefit was for me, and decided they could/should do it, too. If it's mandatory, it is not about cool or uncool...and that's something I've spoken about for a bit now... I understand what you're talking about, and I also clearly understand your intention. I am just not sure about the best way to go about it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hugs, Sky my friend...hugs... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Did I forget to give them to you? My bad. But yeah, you coulda been psychic.....beats a homing pidgeon....and you're a man, anyway, and men're supposed to be psychic. And Lisa? it's cool you were first. One of us Westies shoulda been, and since Chris isn't psychic...it's all good... Ciels- michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I don't think that's altogether true, Lisa. Just because the coaches are available doesn't mean someone will take advantage of them and get the education. Look around at the larger DZs, and see what's happening whether or not the availability is present... It's about accessing the education, I think. Not the availability, but the availing of it. Glen has a point when he says the plan has an inherent flaw, and favors those who jump at a bigger DZ...and while Wendy rebuts it, what if the S&TA doesn't have the training and/or experience to sign off, and then signs off anyway (which might happen)? The person thinks he's fine to jump something, has it in his log book (or whatever) that he can, and then goes and lowturns in under a light wingloading...and the family goes and sues the S&TA and every other available person... If there was a way around that, then I might be more in favor of it. As it stands, I am strongly in favor of education...but how to make sure people get that is still mostly beyond me. Ciels- Michele Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Kewl. Funny but I had never asked you about that! LOL...glad to hear it's your intention... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hiya, Andy. I included gender because Kallend insisted it's a point of reference in some analyses. And it is. As with the age (again, a Kallend datapoint). From what I understand, the percentage of female skydivers is something on the order of 15-18%. I could be wrong, though. It would seem, if that is a correct percentage, that fewer women are dying because of low turns than the male to female ratio would predict. However, after looking at the stats all day, I think that overall, women die in proportion to the ratio (or somewhat close therein). Hope that helps answer the question... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

You Rawk, Chris. Way to challenge it and you and everyone. Proud of you, my friend!! And, you SUCK!!! You didn't call me. I guess I'm not as impawtant as all that. And don't you try any FF boys excuse with me... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Gotta ask, then, Lis....why not take a canopy control class? Really curious, and no disrespect intended at all. But why not? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

There has been a great deal of conversation with everyone about w/l restrictions and low turn fatalities. There have been requests from folks to give a "study" from the available numbers, so I gave it a shot. If you want to flame me, do me a favor and realize how long this has taken for me to do...if you still want to flame me, you produce something which can work. Deal? . I did a bit of research today, and complied the following information. I did not look at how many died under full canopies from something other than a low turn (i.e. canopy collision, hard landing, etc.) I've spent the day doing this, and am a tad tired at this point. I have no conclusion at this point still about how I feel about the restrictions proposed, but I do think there isn't enough accurate and complete information (at least from where I got it) to accurately determine if w/l is or is not a significant factor (too much missing data). Low Turn Fatalities including w/l (when given) and jump numbers: Gender Age: Jump# W/L What Happened: **Note: unkn=unknown (age, j/n) undscl=undisclosed (used w/ w/l) 2003 (3 total to date) Male unkn. 1700 undscl. Low turn off dz to avoid obstacle Unkn unkn 40 undscl. Low turn trying to return from long spot (poss to get into wind) Male 40 200+, undsicl. Low turn on an out landing, lightly loaded (although undisclosed) No wingloading given, no conclusion can be drawn. At least 2 were males 2002 (8 total) Female 28 135 .09/1:1 Low turn (no further reason) Male 28 270 1.5:1(+) Low turn Male 33 521 2.13:1 Small low turn into wind, partial canopy collapse (21 jumps on this canopy) Male 22 275 1.63:1 Attempt 180 at +/- 150 feet. Recently downsized from "much larger" canopy Female 24 201 undiscl. Low turn/off dz landing Male 33 1500 undiscl. Swooped into pond, few outs Male 45 170 1.4:1 Swoop Male 24 160 1.3:1 Low turn and no flare. 2 females, 6 males; oldest: 45, youngest: 22 1 wingloading was under 1:1 2 wingloadings were between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1 2 were wingloadings between 1.6:1 and 2:0 1 wingloading was over 2:1 2 were not given Lowest number of jumps: 135 (also lowest wingloading) Highest number of jumps: 1500 (undisclosed wingloading) 2001 Male 30 4700 2.0:1 HP landing (poss. rear risers) and no toggles found in hands. Male 41 920 1.5:1 Low turn Male 40 4000 undiscl. Low tunr, lost toggle. Male 52 40 1.1:1 Low turn to avoid power lines Male 39 600 undiscl. "radical" low turn Male 30 70 undiscl. Low turn off dz landing. (Canopy was indicated as "expert"...no further) Male 40 1000 undiscl. Hard turn during demo practice. (Not Pro rated) (level 2 demo into stadium) Male 63 4000 undiscl. Lowturn during demo, not demo rated (possible turn/wind)(possible spectator strike/avoidance) Male 23 201 1.4:1 Low deployemnt, off dz Low turn/hit roof of building. 0 females, 9 males; oldest: 63, youngest: 23 3 wingloadings were between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1 1 wingloading was between 1.6:1 and 2:0 5 wingloadings were not given Lowest number of jumps: 40 (also lowest given wingloading) Highest number of jumps: 4700 (undisclosed wingloading) 2000 Male 28 178 1.1:1 Low turn in high(ish) winds (20+ mph) Male unkn, 100 1.3:1 Low turn Male 31 400 1.2:1 Low turn to get into the wind. Male unkwn 39 undscl. Low turn. Male 25 1200 1.3:1(+/-) Low turn, no flare, HP landing on a Stiletto. Male 43 100 undscl. Low turn Male Unknwn, 42, undiscl. Struck roof of building. Previous year had struck power lines. Male 42 98 undiscl. Low turn. First jump under new canopy (unknown kind, downsize, or w/l). It was elliptical. Male 42 1000 undiscl. Low turn. (stiletto 120, but no w/l given). 0 females, 9 males; oldest: unknown, youngest: unknown 4 wingloadings were between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1 5 wingloadings were not given Lowest number of jumps: 39 (undisclosed wingloading) Highest number of jumps: 1200 (undisclosed wingloading) 1999 Male 26 110 1.35:1 Low turn to get into wind. Not HP, but toggle turned. Male unkwn 43. Undscl. Low turn, possible dust devil. Male 39 190 undiscl Good main, out landing, so low turn is suspected. No witnesses. (Indicated moderate high w/l) Male 29 500 2.0:1 Low turn to avoid downwind. 30 jumps on this canopy, 350-400 in last year. Male 28 200 undsicl. Low turn, impacted hard, to get into wind. Male 34 700 1.6:1 Low turn twice, undecided/lost riser? Small landing area. Male 59 2500 undscl. Landing collision during a demo with a guard wall. 0 females, 7 males; oldest: unknown, youngest: unknown 1 wingloading was between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1 3 wingloadings were between 1.5:1 and 2 4 wingloadings were not given Lowest number of jumps: 43 (undisclosed wingloading) Highest number of jumps: 2500 (undisclosed wingloading) 1988 (8 total) Male 42 1400 undiscl. Low turn (hooked at 30-50 feet). F111 canopy, not a known hook turner. Male 27 3300 1.85:1 Customary 270 approach to hook turn. Completed too low. Unknwn, unkn, unkn, undiscl. Low turn Male unknwn, unkn undscl. Low turn. Male 19 55 1.25:1 Low turn to get into the wind. Unknwn 44 400 undscl. Low turn to avoid power lines. Male 38 350 undscl. Low turn to get into the wind. Male 54 186 .085:1 Low turn to get back into heavy winds. unknown females, unknown males; oldest: unknown, youngest: unknown 1 wingloading under 1:1 1 wingloading was between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1 1 wingloadings were between 1.5:1 and 2 5 wingloadings were not given Lowest number of jumps: 55 (1.25:1 wingloading) Highest number of jumps: 3300 (1.85:1 wingloading) These numbers were compiled from skydiving fatalities.com as well as information here. The whole fatality history which I've compiled for the last 5 years is attached (I hope). Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ fatalities.rtf

Only with pudding for dessert - with lots of whipped cream... (I keep waiting for someone to pm me about how to, ah, have a chicken but not eat it - but no-one has yet....) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

True dat, Kris... And I still haven't jumped with you, either. I think there's a weekend shaping up here... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Um, well....huh. You learn something new everyday. Wow. Oh my. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Know what? As much as I read, I haven't indulged in that yet. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Oh, I've never thought about a chicken. Unless it's the dinner/romance part of the fantasy. Chicken in wine with garlic mashed potatoes and blanched asparagas....and a bottle or two of a good white wine...yeppers, that could be easily handled...that's the start of a good romantic interlude... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Yes, I was aware that Ivan is going after custody of your long lost virgin child. I was just offering to help...and yes, my hair is long enough to do that with. Although running around braless can be rather painful for me...but I'll endure! Anything to save a father and his son. Hey, wait, isn't this the sexual fantasy thread? Hrm......... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Um, actually, no....but isn't it gelatin based rather than water based? Or am I being nitpicky? Vectorboy....I've made jello pudding a lot....with milk and whipped cream..... I like the banana flavor, and the pistachio flavor, Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

What about the jello???????????????? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

No no, that's your job. Geesh!! And I never said I would add my ideas. Just wanted to see if you would. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hey, I know what. How about I wrap my hair around my ears and wear a white toga dress with no bra? That might distract him. Or at least make him laugh hard and long, so you can sneak over and steal his light saber! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~