377

http://tinyurl.com/3ptkv7g 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks Farflung, good stuff. I have some detailed but kind of blurry stuff from my World Airways 727-172 systems manual that I'll try to post. One drawing in particular has a LOT of detailed info about the stairs, and its bearings, pivots, subbers, struts, actuator etc. The original is blurry but readable. I'll see if I can get as good a copy as possible before posting. Maybe Georger's Image Enhancement Lab can spruce it up. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Just aquired a World Airways 727-173C Systems Study guide, a huge book full of diagrams etc. Nothing remarkable, but all references to the rear ventral airstair call it the "aft stair". Jo will like that. For the record Jerry, I do not think Duane Weber was Cooper or that he ever made a parachute jump. My reason is dirt simple: no evidence. I've never seen proof that Duane wasn't Cooper nor have I seen proof that Rod Serling or Hunter Thompson wasn't Cooper. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

In the DC 9-21 jet I jumped from it was noisy but calm in the back of the fuselage right next to the ventral stair hatch opening. Nothing was blowing around inside the plane. The stairs were removed and the area lined with sheet metal so exiting jumpers wouldnt damage the interior structure. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Don't forget what I posted about jumping the DC 9 out of the ventral door. Each exiting jumper created a very noticeable pressure bump. You could hear it and feel it even in the front of the plane. It was a "thunk" sound. Some have postulated that it was a reflected pressure wave from the jumper hitting the slipstream. I am not an aero engineer so i dont have a tight explanation, but I guarantee you I could have accurately counted every jumper who exited before me even if I had been blindfolded. 377 377, Thanks for the information. If I remember correctly, the aft stairs from the DC-9 had been completely removed from the aircraft for your jump. Right off, I don't have an idea as to exactly how the exiting jumper could have caused a pressure bump such as you describe. But I still feel that the pressure bump in the hijacked 727 was caused by the aft stairs events described by the flight crew as well as the sled drops in the FBI tests. 377, Let me reply to this message again since you have a more detailed description of your DC-9 jump here. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "reflected pressure wave". But here is my suggestion of the aerodynamic oddity that you describe above. And please note that I have spent at least 10 minutes researching the above matter. In my opinion, this effect is something akin to the making and breaking of the Coanda effect at the rear of the DC-9 fuselage. Except in this instance the Coanda effect is first broken and then re-established. As the air passes around the fuselage of the DC-9, starting at the nose, it first has to move outward laterally to get around the increasing diameter of the fuselage. The force necessary to push the air aside comes from the engines, and their energy generation comes from the fuel. Then as the air gets to the rear of the fuselage, the air has to move inward laterally due to the decreasing diameter of the fuselage (nature abhors a vacuum!). This inward movement is, or at least is analogous to, the Coanda effect. It is induced by the shape of the rear fuselage. The end result of the above is that, in addition to the normal fuselage boundary layer, there is an area of relatively "dead" air at the aft end of the fuselage, and then we have the free stream airflow rejoining just aft (or downstream) of that. Think of this dead air as being something like you find behind a blunt body such as an automobile. So here is my suggestion as to what you were hearing and feeling on that DC-9. As a jumper went through the bottom of the aft fuselage (with the aft stairs no longer there), within a few feet he/she would hit the free stream air and break the Coanda effect. In a few more feet, he/she would be clear of the flow field affecting the aircraft and the Coanda effect would then re-establish the original flow field. The "thunk" would be the Coanda effect re-establishing itself and resulting in the airflow hitting the rear fuselage or tail cone in a rather violent manner before settling down. And it so happened that you were able to hear that initial impact as the airflow was trying to re-establish itself. The pressure bump would probably be caused by the initial breakup of the Coanda effect as the jumper moved through it. So if my guesses are correct, in real time the pressure bump would occur first and then the "thunk". If you were in the rear of the aircraft, you might hear the "thunk" before feeling the bump. If you were more forward in the fuselage, you might feel and hear them at the same time or even in reverse order. It depends on how fast the pressure is increased throughout the fuselage and the speed of sound of the "thunk". Does any of the above make sense to you? Robert 99, I am an EE not an Aero E so I'll defer to your analysis. The only knowledge I have of the Coanda effect is a dim memeory of some weird old experimental planes that used a rotating cylinder to provide lift. I do remember a kind of two part pressure event for each jumper exit, a "whoosh" and a "thunk". It was VERY noticable, not subtle at all. I wish I had glanced at my altimeter to see if the needle bumped. I'll bet it did but can't say for sure. There is some relatively dead air right outside of the ventral door. You didnt feel the full exit blast until you were a few feet away from the plane. It's funny. The jet jump wasn't particularly difficult at all other than landing off DZ due to the high speed and strung out one by one exits. They even took tandem jumpers out of the DC 9. Still, my jet jump impresses whuffos a lot more more than really tough jumps. It has to be the DB Cooper factor. Occam says the NWA 727 pressure bump was Coopers exit, but Occam isnt always right. I do think given enough time, this case will be solved. Something will be found, someone will remember a lead, something will break the logjam. Tom Kaye has been silent for so long. I wish he'd post here and tell us his current thoughts. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Correct. I think the most likely explanation for the bump was Coopers exit but it's not the only possible one. If the crew were sure the first bump was his exit they'd be in mind frame which might cause them to be less vigilant about subsequent pressure anomalies. It's possible that the people doing the intial radar investigation were unaware that an exiting jumper presents a decent target. I bet Coopers exit was seeable. It might have only been in the raw data but it was likely there. The raw data, if recorded, is probably long gone now. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Don't forget what I posted about jumping the DC 9 out of the ventral door. Each exiting jumper created a very noticeable pressure bump. You could hear it and feel it even in the front of the plane. It was a "thunk" sound. Some have postulated that it was a reflected pressure wave from the jumper hitting the slipstream. I am not an aero engineer so i dont have a tight explanation, but I guarantee you I could have accurately counted every jumper who exited before me even if I had been blindfolded. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Easy answer Jo. They don't care if you toil endlessly. They have no continuing interest in lightening the load on potential witnesses who are determined to have no probative evidence. A witness either has relevant crime evidence or they don't. The FBI has concluded that you don't. After that point you fall off their radar. They won't spend a minute to save you years of frustrating investigative work. That angers you but surely you should be able to see their point. It's not a static situation. Put Duane on the plane and you'll find immediate and deep FBI interest. Until then you'll just be completely ignored. Not persecuted, just ignored. There is a difference. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am sure Farflung has a plan to fix this. It might already be underway. A dying breed that doesn't breed gives you a hint. Jo, you really don't have to be so desperate to prove DW=DBC. It makes you stretch things to make them fit. Slow down, relax, take up a pleasant hobby and put this case on hold or at least idle. This crime will eventually be solved in my opinion. If Duane was Cooper you'll be vindicated. You (and I) might well be dead by that time, but so what? Why the huge push to make the case with inadequate evidence while you are alive? The Internet assures that your posts will endure practically forever. I really do worry about your increasing stress over what you feel is coverup, manipulation and ignorance. Decouple, detach, don't let this be your primary activity. You can still enjoy life and lessen the frustration that this case causes you. Jerry Thomas won't bother you on a beach walk. The FBIs purported stupidity won't be a factor there either. You've made your points. They are recorded. Repetition won't accomplish much. Further research is unlikely to dig up anything that will turn the tide. This is one addict advising another to quit or cut back, I know that, but I don't have a horse in the race like you do. If a particular horse wins I don't lose. You have a huge amount of your psyche bet on Duane Weber to win the Wahougal Derby. Place or show pays nothin. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What Winsor said (about the Caribou). Saw one hauling demo jumpers at the Salinas CA airshow years ago. It was flying light but the TO roll was so incredibly short it made my jaw drop. Just amazing. It had about 10 kts of helpful headwind which just made it look even more amazing. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

The pilot just turned it on when flying above the pull out setting and left it on. When they dove down to that warning altitude, a horn wasw activated. When they pulled out and climbed above it, the switch opened and the horn stopped sounding. I guess after youd done all your bombing youd want to turn it off for a landing. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I was seven....I do not remember other than picking bits and pieces from family conversations. When I spoke to his first wife a few months ago, she said never heard from him again, until she received divorce papers in the mail from an attorney in Las Vegas in 1963. Mel's mother died in 1994 and he never attempted to see her after he left his first family in 1956. She stayed close to her grandchildren, unfortunately she never knew about this of her family. I assume (believe) since he is wanted by the US Marshal's, was on their Wisconsin's top ten wanted list until 2001 and the show Unsolved Mysteries brought no credible leads, that he is DEAD. I also believe he would have been diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder with a emphasis on Psychopathy. As we all know (or don't care) having this disorder gives a person certain traits that are ingrained in their personality. Hares PLC-R checklist can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist Edited to add another good insight: http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm Yikes Vicki. These diagnostic matrices are scary. How did you turn out? I probably qualify for SSI mental disability. Maybe I can stop working, get benefits and just jump and fish all the time. Hmmm... Can you post some that will make me look more normal? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I see a pattern Farflung. Should I notify TSA? Charles LaPoint Richard McCoy Martin McNally Robb Heady (a nut case, toss him out of the sample). All these Mc's and an La. Anyone with a two letter prefix on their last name should be on a do not fly list. The stats clearly support this. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Vicki, If your father were alive after Norjack occurred is it your opinion that he would have let his family know, even if he had to stay on the run and never see them again? What I am asking is does his disappearance mean death to you or could he have lived and had no further contact with his family? I know it calls for speculation, but the answer depends on an assessment of his character and family knows it best. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

This has to stop Guru. but not before I say one more thing. Maized and Cornfused, You know the Led Zeppelin song, right? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

If Cooper pulled the packing card (no proof that he did) he'd know what canopy was in the rig. If he was an experienced jumper he'd know that a military bailout rig like that, in 1971, with no D rings for a reserve VERY likely had a 28 foot C9 or 26 foot Navy Conical round canopy in it. Those miltary canopies were built like tanks, but the sport ones were not. They didnt need to be rated for high speed deployments (above 150 mph) and the designers strove for minimizing pack volume. I've only owned one emergency chute FAA approved for civilian use and it DID have the canopy type and serial number listed on the packing card, but no speed rating. I'll defer to your experience. I only have a single sample. The only speed ratings I've seen are on sport canopies and rigs themselves, never on a packing card. I've seen no credible evidence that Cooper checked any packing cards. An author saying he did, even if the author is an FBI agent, doesnt make it a fact. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Did you not mean "..out of that maize"? Good one, really good Orange. But kinda corny. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Farflung wrote Priceless Farflung. I wonder if you could program an audio processing module to go between the microphone and VHF transmitter on small planes. I hear the Cessna drivers trying to sound all hunky and pro with their wimpy "ahhhh(s)" and squeaky tentative "good day(s)". Your box could make it come out just right, like the guys with four engines or in your case eight. There is a market here. Snow could design the system and you could provide the templates. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jerry, The disagreement between qualified people about the survivability of the jump is why an empirical real world test jump needs to be made in similar conditions. I know you have good reasons for your opinion and others have good reasons for opposing ones. I've never made a wilderness jump. I did get totally lost in a massive Illinois field planted in tall corn. Happened on a jump from a helo that was made off DZ. I though I'd never find my way out of that maze. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Bruce wrote: Simple. You don't look like Marla Cooper. Try hiring a gorgeous female assistant and have her make the FBI inquiries Bruce. The pharma companies figured out years ago how to get some face time with doctors. Have you ever seen a drug rep? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Robert99 wrote If Cooper pulled the packing card (no proof that he did) he'd know what canopy was in the rig. If he was an experienced jumper he'd know that a military bailout rig like that, in 1971, with no D rings for a reserve VERY likely had a 28 foot C9 or 26 foot Navy Conical round canopy in it. Those miltary canopies were built like tanks, but the sport ones were not. They didnt need to be rated for high speed deployments (above 150 mph) and the designers strove for minimizing pack volume. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

No thanks Jerry. I like to speculate about the survivability of the jump but replicating it takes considerably more courage than I have. I'm the guy sitting it out when the winds get above 20 knots at my DZ. I'm the guy who lets the crazies do the crazy stuff and feels no need to emulate them. Snow offered to do it for $5000 and he really is a man of his word. He has no jump experience but is in great shape and has a LOT of ice climbing and rock climbing experience. I'd bet he'd survive and be able to walk out to a road. Some TV producers ought to hire Snow and do a special. Stunt men charge way more than $5000 for a stunt like this. You wouldn't need to charter a jet, a tailgate Skyvan, Herc or CASA 212 could fly at the same speed as a 727 configured for dropping. A Skyvan could be brought up from Arizona at moderate expense compared to a jet. Geraldo Rivera could narrate the show. Marla Cooper could be in it too. She really needs a break. I have jumpable radio telemetry gear that would give us his position, altitude, speed, course, heart rate, temperature and blood oxygen level (SPO2) . Amazon hinted that she could do the jump. How about it Amazon? Whats your price? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Farf wrote Of course. We want our legend to be a James Bond type not a dufus who skyjacked a 727 without knowing knowing if he could exit much less susccessfully don, deploy, fly and land a parachute. We want him highly skilled, cunning and to have survived. Good looks, smart and mad skilz. That's our guy. It's just human nature and outcome bias working in beautiful harmony. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

If you knew the details about the Air America 727 jumps you'd know that you needn't slow down to freefall terminal velocity and that you could safely deploy right from the steps if the plane was flying at a reasonable speed and you were using a C9 canopy. You could face forward on the steps, pull the ripcord and be pulled off as the chute deploys. That way there is no freefall tumbling or disorientation. It would also allow the jumper to resolve a hard pull from the safety of the stairs rather than in the midst of a terrifying tumble in the night sky. Skydivers know that you can do pulloff deployments. That's the way very early parachute jumps were made from biplanes. A jumper would go out to the end of the wing to avoid a tail snag and pull the ripcord. The deploying chute would pull him off. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

We only assume it was a hard pull because Cossey said so. Cossey seems to enjoy spoofing and playing with people who inquire about the Norjack gear. We have a few examples of that. A C9 canopy in an NB6 rig doesnt have to be a hard pull, even if the handle has been moved to right outboard. Cossey allegedly has told some people it was an NB8 not an NB6. An NB8 has a larger container volume. Even an NB6 container can be extended giving more volume inside the closed rig. It's an easy job for a rigger and many surplus rigs had this mod done. The bailout rig that Cooper jumped was originally configured as someone's last chance to survive. It was probably made for a jumpship pilot. Does it make sense that you'd set it up to be nearly impossible or highly difficult to open? Some jumpship pilots have bailed out VERY low as most wait for all the paseengers to get out first if there is a fire or structural failue. A hard pull adds deadly seconds to deploying a chute. Does that make sense for an emergency rig? Think about it. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.