377

It was an awesome time for sure. I keep thinking whats the big deal, anyone can just ignore the forum for as long as they wish, but alas, moderators do not have that freedom. Now I understand Quade's "awesome time" comment a bit better. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Hey Sluggo! Have we voted on the packing card issue? Let's next explore the D ring absence comment Cooper allegedly made. Don't worry about this thread dieing. Quade could kill it, but it won't die on its own. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Why is it that the paranoid conspiracy buffs always claim that witnesses with crucial facts are silenced by MIBs, FBI agents etc who cite "national security"? An FBI agent can tell you to keep quiet about something due to national security and you can ignore the command. They have no injunctive power. Courts can order silence, FBI agents cannot. When they are cutting deals with confidential informants, silence can be an agreed to condition, but they can't just come up to a person who for example saw a flare dropped from a plane and order them to keep their f---ing mouth shut and arrest them if they disobey. Those kinds of orders have no legal weight. I personally doubt these stories and think they are made up to give an aura of danger and government concern to matters that the government couldn't care less about. Scully and Mulder don't really work for the FBI. There are no X files nor is there any government coverup of Norjack. The FBI got caught flat footed by Cooper and would LOVE to solve the case, even posthumously. Ckret didn't threaten Jo or order her to stay away or be silent, but it gives strength to her coverup theory if her claims are believed. I miss Ckret and I miss Snowmman, to this day. They both added a lot to this forum. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Yes, it IS different Jo. I don't think any humans should ever be nuked and there were a lot of atrocities in the Civil War (Andersonville prison camp for example), but the torture and execution of six million non combatants can hardly be excused by a "just following orders" defense. It wasn't just Jews BTW, Gypsies and homosexuals were sent to the Nazi death camps too. Soon hunting Nazi war criminals will be a moot point due to age, but I do see a reason to go after them while they can still be found. They are criminals and should have to answer for what they did. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were arguably valid military targets due to industrial presence. I think it was wrong to bomb them and never would have approved it if I were the President without first demonstrating the atomic bomb in an unpopulated area and giving the Japanese a chance to surrender after witnessing its horrendous destructive power. I am friends with a Hiroshima survivor. He was a child living in the city when the bomb was dropped. Interestingly, he sees the nuclear bombings as more justified than I do. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Cossey plays it straight with the feds but I think he occasionally has "fun" with amateur or self appointed Cooper investigators. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Cossey seems to have an attitude about Norjack investigators and has apparently given different answers to different people asking about the gear. Maybe he resents that he never made any money from the incident. He might have even lost money if he was not compensated for the chutes lost or damaged during the crime. He might just have a sardonic sense of humor that motivates him to "mess" with investigators, who knows? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Come on Quade, be nice. We've been pretty civil lately. Why make us feel so unwelcome on dropzone.com? 377 The World's Most Boeing Skydiver. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am corresponding with a long time 727 mechanic. Any systems questions? He is not a pilot but worked on 727s for many years. I am also back in touch with the Vietnamese paratrooper, who had moved. I am going to get together with him sometime this spring and see what (if anything) he knew about the Air America 727 jumps etc. I am going to try to get his permission to video the interview. If you have questions post them. I think Cooper KNEW a 727 could be jumped. Not many people knew that in 71, not even the 3 highly trained guys in the cockpit. If I am right, that really narrows the Cooper suspect field. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I think we are talking about two different "cards". The instructions Cossey's loft supplied along with the chutes is a different item than the riggers packing cards which carry no instructions, just a packing date and rigger signature. The riggers packing cards are concealed in very obscure pockets on rigs. They have only the serial number of the canopy, packing date and riggers signature and FAA lic number and once in a while notes about repairs, tests or mods. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

You are making a fundamental mistake here Jo. YOU are the person making the extraordinary claim. YOU have the burden of proof. If you were trying to prove Duane was Cooper in a court of law do you really think you would prevail? Your claim is primarily based on remembered tangible evidence (bag, ticket, stub and satchel), none of which can be physically produced for inspection by the jurors. Sure, nobody can erase what you think you recall, but thats not the point. The point is that you make a big opening statement: "Duane was Cooper" Then when you have to present your probative evidence the best you have is recollections of items seen but now unavailable. I think it would take a jury about ten minutes to reach a verdict and it would not be in your favor. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

TOSAW wrote: Tina wouldnt know what a packing card was or what info it contained unless Cooper told her. I think there is a lot of "fill in" here by Tosaw. We can deal with the alleged D-ring comment in CAVA 3. And Jo, consider the waste of time and money you have caused by lodging a formal complaint with the FBI about Ckret's conduct. All misconduct complaints have to be investigated, even baseless vindictive ones like your. That was just downright MEAN. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Ckret said he was unaware of any evidence supporting this claim (Cooper inspecting rigger card). It is intriguing to me because it would tell me a LOT about Cooper's jump and gear expertise, but I can't find any evidence besides one authors bare assertion that it occured. Military aircrew have no reason to look at packing cards for emergency rigs and don't. I dont know about paratroopers or smoke jumpers but I'd guess that they assume the gear is current and don't look at the cards. Skydivers look at them more than any other kinds of jumpers because many DZ's inspect them too and won't let you jump if you last reserve repack was beyond FAA time requirements. I had mine inspected just last weekend when I showed up at a DZ I hadn't been to for a while. The pockets for these cards on military bailout rigs are quite obscure and easily overlooked by non experts. When I jumped military surplus gear I knew where my belly reserve packing card was but never had a reason to look for one on the main because there were no legal requirements about main re-packing frequency. My main did have a packing card pocket but I only noticed it by accident after I had jumped it many times. I tend towards discounting the credibility of this CAVA 2 item, but want to hear from others. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

CAVA: I say yes on the paper bag. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

NOPE, Jo. The FBI has even gone after their own rogue agents, so your story about the agency deliberately not solving the Norjack case just doesnt withstand logical and historical scrutiny. You equate the FBI's refusal to further investigate Duane as proof that they do not want Norjack solved. There are other far more logical interpetations, but you will just dismiss them and stick with your paranoid FBI Norjack coverup theory. I think it is shameful that you hound Carr with official complaints when he has been decent and even caring towards you. I know you will never see it that way but many others do. Even complaints that are spurious hurt career advancement and you had no right to do that to Carr. Woe be unto he who doubts Jo's Weber was Cooper claims. Hell hath no fury like a women scorned. Duane didnt spend nearly two decades constructing an elaborate Cooper ruse. You just look backwards from his lie with blinders on seizing on ambiguous evidence, finding zero probative evidence and ignoring evidence that casts strong doubts on the accuracy of your Duane Weber was Dan Cooper theory. You know that Sluggo is an honorable person and a gentleman of his word. You decline his generous offer claiming that he will obstruct and possibly even mislead you. I know he wouldn't do that and I suspect that you do as well. Most forum members see it as Sluggo calling your bluff and you back pedalling, shuffling and evading. I think Duane told you he was Cooper, that he took you on a memory lane trip in WA and so forth. Missing in all of that is ONE OUNCE OF PROOF that his claim was true. You miss a big clue here Jo and it's one that you provided. I DO think Duane read that library book about Cooper and even sketched some notes in it. The real Cooper wouldn't need to read a book to find out any details about Norjack, but a wannabe sure would. I think Duane was planning some sort of con or sting based on a claim that he was Cooper or a Cooper accomplice. That is an explanation which is consistent with every provable fact you have put forth. When you get to evidence that allegedly puts Duane in a chute or in the NWA 727 everything goes "POOF" or the sources deny saying things etc etc. There are none so blind as those who will not see. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sluggo, Wow! Talk about calling someones's bluff... There is liitle chance that Jo will accept your offer and even less chance that she will abide by the terms. Still, I really admire your dedication to the cause. Jo has said before that she had proof that Duane was Dan Cooper, that Duane received Ranger training and that Duane was a jumper. If she has all that why would she need to travel to WA for further investigation? The answer is obvious. Jo's inflation of Carr's concerned comments into "FBI threats" is sad. I've asked Jo a number of times to air her proof about Duane being a parachutist. Her stubborn evasive non responsive dodge answer is always: "The FBI said I had to put him in the plane." The FBI wants to solve Norjack in the worst way because it is their ONLY miss on a skyjack. If they solve this case they will be batting 1000 in a very notorious crime category. It isnt the FBI who has made Jo waste a lot of time and money, it's Duane's lies and her own stubborn obsession. I do think Duane told Jo he was Dan Cooper, but it was just a lie, a chance to go out as a big shot in the eyes of a woman who loved him. Duane couldn't credibly claim to be an altruistic hero, but he could claim to be a far more clever criminal than he actually was... and that's what he did in my opinion. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, I really don't think Tina should be needlessly hassled but I don't think she should have some sort of special protected status. She was an adult, she was not (to my knowledge) physically assaulted and not one drop of victim blood was spilled in the commission of the crime. As crimes go this was lightweight. If her testimony could solve the crime then yes I'd put her on the stand if I were a prosecutor. Everyone assumes she went to a nunnery because of Norjack mental trauma, but there may be many other reasons. Tina got a better look at Cooper than anyone and observed most of the crime first hand and up close. Tina deserves privacy but she also has a social responsibility that cannot be ignored. Had more nuns come forward to report priest sex abuse to the police many child victims would have been spared. This Cooper situation isnt an exact analogy, but using religious devotion/cloistering to rationalize silence about crimes is actually antithetical to the high calling nuns aspire to. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I dont think Tina should be bothered with wholly speculative Cooper inquiries, but other crime victims have endured far greater stress and horror than she did and nobody cuts them much slack as far as asking them relevant questions designed to solve the crime. Tina is just a person, not a saint, not immune from her social and civil responsibility to help bring a criminal to justice. Why is there this uniformly accepted "hands off Tina" deal? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

The rigger card inspection was a rumor G. It was widely circulated in skydiving circles right after the skyjack. It lead many jumpers to conclude that Cooper was a skydiver. Ckret told me ages ago that he was unaware of any witness statements about Cooper locating and reading rigger data cards on any of the rigs. It probably didn't occur but if it did, it would be a very valuable clue. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

You have one of the rare Clear View SSE altimeters Amazon. I have yet to find one for my collection. Hang onto it, very few made. I have a mint SSE Anniversary Issue altimeter, rare but not as rare as yours. In one account of McCoys skyjack great detail is told about his using flights in his ANG helo for testing and recalibrating an SSE Sentinel AAD to work over the terrain he expected to jump into. The early SSE Sentinel was really just a modified SSE Altimaster altimeter with user adjustable electrical contacts for triggering a reserve pin puller. McCoy was apparently concerned that he might strike the 727 during exit and wanted an AAD in case he was knocked unconscious. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

You may be right Amazon. Pillows might have come later. I was jumping surplus gutter gear through the 70s, C9 main, Navy Conical in a belly reserve container and a panel on top of the reserve with a BIG acft altimeter and a stop watch. I was always afraid that panel would take my teeth out on a slammer opening. I collect skydiving altimeters and have some rare ones such as the Chute Shop mini, which was just a barometer with a new face on it. I have a knock off of the military SSE MA 2-30 made for the US govt by a second source contractor. Also have a prototype of an SSE military model with blue electrolum panel backlighting. I've learned how to repair most old altimeters and have a vacuum chamber to check calibration. I like to actually jump my antique altimeters, but always wear a known good modern one too and an audible. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Nice to get back to Cooper. Thanks Sluggo. One rumor I'd like to run down is that Cooper inspected the riggers packing card on at least one of the rigs. These cards are normally in very well concealed pockets. If Cooper knew how to find one it would speak volumes about his parachuting experience. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

There is no such thing as a pillow altimeter. The pillow was simply a wedge of fabric covered foam onto which an altimeter was mounted and the foam pillow was attached to the harness, usually with a webbing loop through which a chest strap was passed. In 71 there were a number of skydiving altimters available that could easy fit in your pocket. The SSE Altimaster was one. The Northstar was another. BTW an altimeter is just a barometer with a different face on it calibrated in feet rather than pressure. There were a number of hiker barometer/altimeter devices available in 71 that were even smaller than skydiving altimeters. Scroll down for pillow picture http://www.square1.com/manufacturers/square1/p231.asp#LongAltiPillow 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I'd bet 100 to 1 that Carr was expressing concern for your welfare rather than threatening you Jo. Since you are so secretive about what you plan to do in WA it's hard to know what prompted Carr's words. If you think the FBI cares where you travel you are overestimating their interest in you and Duane by a large amount. Overestimating the FBI's interest in your affairs is kind of sad. The truth is less glamourous Jo, they don't really care what you do as long as you don't commit crimes within their jurisdiction. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I dated some flight attendants in my youth Ralph. Thankfully they were exceptions to your idealistic lofty standards. They were, however, "exceptional"... we do agree on that point. One had easily a thousand of those little drink bottles, all full of course. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sheesh, that square canopy really sets the wrong tone for a factual well researched book. And oh, the DRAMA... working in secret, in fear of the FBI raiding their offices and seizing their computers. Uhh ever hear of remote backups? Pen drives? CDs with your data taken to other places? "90-95%" sure that they have ID'd Cooper. How do you quantify that confidence level? I'd be overjoyed if the Cooper mystery were solved in my lifetime, but I am not holding out high hopes for this book doing it. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.