rhino

Skybitch is right. I put 200 jumps on my Triathlon150 loaded at 1.2 with ALL standup landings. And I hit the within 5 feet of the disk 9 times out of 10. I have just downsized to a Diablo110 loaded at 1.5. I've demo'd many canopies before making my decision and I learned EVERY aspect of my Triathlon's flight characteristics before moving down. I Put 20 jumps on a demo Diablo120. It flew like a 135 with very light toggle pressure. And it still allows my to fly slow or fast, to flat turn, hold or to turn and burn. How is your accuracy? Can you flat turn? Can you hold in brakes? Can you land 10 times out of 10 on your feet on a no wind day? Skybitch is right, if you want more performance stay at the same loading and get a slightly better performing canopy. It's all a matter of safety and preference. Not only your safety but everyone elses safety. Don't be in a rush!! Blue Skies!! Rhino Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

Andrea, Get a Triathlon.. Goto www.aerodyneusa.com A Triathlon is much better to start with than a sabre. It's alot better in bumpy air and has a LOWER bottom end. That means it flies slower. Blue Skies!! Rhino Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

I have 200 jumps on my Triathlon 150 "Square", I am 150 lbs so I load it at 1.2 ish.. For packing, it really doesn't matter how you do it. Psycho, Pro, Flat, I've done them all and gotten the same results. Only had one banger that rang my bell due to what I know was line dump. Keep your stows at 2-3" and double wrap the rubber bands on the last stow. Don't use tube stows as they don't break like the rubber bands are made to. I have rolled the nose completely and have not rolled the nose at all. Doesn't make that much difference with the Triathlon loaded under 1.5.. It's normally going to be smooth and pretty much on heading if you are balanced in the harness at opening. AWSOME for accuracy, AWSOME on landing, AWSOME for packing, AWSOME for forgiveness, AWSOME into the wind, AWSOME in choppy air and turbulence!! I wouldn't suggest a better first canopy for your first 200 jumps or so. You can sit up high in almost full brakes waiting for your turn to land, I like that :) Don't hook this canopy, the recovery arc is too small and you are likely to get hurt. Carves are fun though!! I HIGHLY recommend the Triathlon!! It makes you feel VERY safe in the air, even in chop.... Blue Skies!! Rhino Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

You said aspect ratio. Cool... Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

I don't know who you are but I LOVE YOU :) Rhino Blue Skies :) Smooth Rides............

Pammi, I've been using those bands for a LONG time :) They will break if they have to by design. Tight stows are good, they prevent line dump... Good stows are VERY necessary if you want good openings on this canopy.. Blue Skies :) Rhino

Get one!! It's a great, safe canopy with one hell of a flight envelope!! Blue Skies!! Rhino

I have 200 jumps on my Triathlon 150, I am 150 lbs so I load it at 1.2 ish.. For packing, it really doesn't matter how you do it. Psycho, Pro, Flat, I've done them all and gotten the same results. Only had one banger that rang my bell due to what I know was line dump. Keep your stows at 2-3" and double wrap the rubber bands on the last stow. Don't use tube stows as they don't break like the rubber bands are made to. I have rolled the nose completely and have not rolled the nose at all. Doesn't make that much difference with the Triathlon loaded under 1.5.. It's normally going to be smooth and pretty much on heading if you are balanced in the harness at opening. AWSOME for accuracy, AWSOME on landing, AWSOME for packing, AWSOME for forgiveness, AWSOME into the wind, AWSOME in choppy air and turbulence!! I wouldn't suggest a better first canopy for your first 200 jumps or so. You can sit up high in almost full brakes waiting for your turn to land, I like that :) Don't hook this canopy, the recovery arc is too small and you are likely to get hurt. Carves are fun though!! I HIGHLY recommend the Triathlon!! It makes you feel VERY safe in the air, even in chop.... Blue Skies!! Rhino

The only container that I know of that uses "ONE" single length of webbing throughout the harness is a RACER. The Racer is the ONLY rig that I know of that is truly "Failsafe", I admit to not knowing the specs on the newer containers.. Rhino

My suggestion is this.. Almost all container systems are good. I recommend a Racer because I jump one and it is the only rig I know of that is fail safe. It is comfortable, and has the fastest reserve deployment time of any that I know of. Fail safe means "if there is a primary stitch failure anywhere on the harness the jumper will not come out." People will argue the point but I don't care it's a fact. So what if few to no jumpers have come out of there harnesses, I don't want to be the first. I like the added peace of mind. Javelyn is also an awsome container, but a little more expensive. Wether or not you use a Cypress is up to you. If you can afford it, go for it.. It's good insurance. Main canopy wise, I'd start with a 7 cell, Triathlon, Spectre like.. Loaded about 1 to 1.. Personally I recommend a Triathlon, as it has been a great first canopy for me and it easy to pack.. Reserve wise, PD or a Raven and you really can't go wrong.. One thing to keep in mind if you get a Racer is you cannot use an RSL and you may have a rough time finding a rigger to pack it. I haven't had any trouble though. Blue Skies Rhino

I don't care what book you are getting your physics from.. Load a Sabre at 1.2 then load a Triathlon at 1.2. If you still tell me that the 9 cell sabre is more stable in bumpy air I'LL CALL BULLSHIT ON THAT ONE ANY DAY. And so will and canopy pilot that has flown the 2 at equal lower end wing loadings... Let's agree to disagree. Blus Skies, Rhino

The discussion was not about range.. Take that same guy on the VX74 and see if he can avoid a student that accidentally flies in front of him at low altitudes. HE'S DEAD!!! We are talking performance envelope on a 9 vs 7 cell canopy for low to mid time jumpers. 1.5 or 3.0 wing loadings aren't in the same category. And I've outflown distance wise MANY A NINE CELL with compairable wing loadings on my Triathlon when it comes to glide path. I noticed the Diablo was even better. You will always get outflown by the Extreme canopies on the end of speed as that is what they are made for. Just because you were docked by a VX74 loaded at 3 and you are loaded at 1.5 means nothing as far as performance envelope. What is your point? If you are flying a high performance canopy at 1.5 the speed isn't ALL THAT different in normal flight. But he'll leave you in his rotors when he lets it go. I PROMISE YOU he was at the edge of his low speed flight envelope slowing to your 1.5 wing loading. I never questioned the RANGE of a high performance canopy. As we were not compairing the 2. In the hands of a good pilot the corner of it's flight envelope can be SLIGHTLY expanded. But again we are talking apples to oranges. Everyone seems to be missing the point here. As with any canopy especially high performance canopies you reach a point of diminishing return where the air speed increase starts to mean an exponential loss in altitude as well. DUGH... Speed wise can my Triathlon loaded at 1.25 keep up with some canopies that are loaded higher? NO. BUT, the majority of the time, when it counts, even though me on my lower wing loading "sometimes" flies a tad slower I almost ALWAYS get more distance and penetration from my 7 cell. The only exception being in EXTREMELY high wind days when I drop down a little faster due to slightly less forward speed and the higher loaded canopies make more headway. I am not disputing physics. I am disputing wether or not some of you people have flown a 7 cell loaded the same as the canopies you are jumping now and ACTUALLY compaired the difference. I have, and I am TELLING you what I experienced under canopy. AGAIN, AN VX-EXTREME CANNOT BE COMPAIRED TO A TRIATHLON. Blue Skies, smooth rides.. Rhino

BAM!!! And RiggerRob hits a homer!! Rhino

In response to: "A nine cell has more flare power because, aspect ratio is higher, so you have a longer lifting surface at the tail being deflected. Also a more aerodynamic nine cell will move faster and speed increases lift more than linearly (square of speed or exponential..forgot)" Again, when we talk about Flare power we have to be specific. Flare as in SWOOP distance or flare as in STOPPING power. Also, I'm not arguing that a highly loaded 9 cell is highly compressed, we all know it is. What I will argue is that a seven cell canopy HAS MORE STOPPING POWER THAN A 9 CELL, PERIOD... And once more, respectfully, I will make a correction. A seven-cell canopy STOPS faster than a 9 cell. Stops being FLARES. Keep in mind we are referencing low to mid jumpers with low to mid wing loadings on a seven cell vs. a nine cell canopy. Yes in a sense you are right about pressurization relating to the inlet size, it also relates to the design of the inlet and how the inlet releases the air back out of the nose. Now with Air locks we are talking about a different story, we are talking about the air being forced to stay in the cells regardless or the turbulent conditions maintaining a rigid wing creating more lift and surf. Flare power is a relative term and must be considered as such. It is relative to wing loading, speed, experience level, canopy type, and what the situation requires. This is where PERFORMANCE ENVELOPE comes into play. Both HIGH and LOW speed flight characteristics. Comparing wing loadings of 1 to 1:8 is hardly realistic in what a canopy will do in rough wind. At 1:1 or less the canopy practically flies the jumper, at 1:8+ make no mistake about it, the jumper flies the canopy. Arguments can be made as to what is the safest. I would rather have more control than less control of all aspects of flight while under canopy. As I do not swoop I enjoy responsiveness. Now, some people are just plane slow and would do ALL of us more harm than good under a high wing loading. They belong on larger docile canopies that can forgive you if you slide in on your butt or reach for the ground on a windy day with a toggle still in their hand. I have yet to fly Diablo or Tri over 1.65 but when I do I'll be happy to fill you in. Blue Skies!! And Smooth Rides!!! Rhino

Respectfully, I must disagree. 7 cells maintain pressurization better than 9 cells by design at lower wing loadings. The cells are deeper and hold more air. More pressurization is an effect of more air in the cells. The airfoil creates more lift hence DECREASING the glide angle. INCREASING flair capability and the ability to make it back after a bad spot. When you flare a 7 cell you are pulling down more surface area of the canopy than when you flare a 9 cell, hence the stopping capability. I make it back from spots all the time that my 9 cell counterparts cannot make it back from under my Triathlon? In response to: "but the 9 cell is more like to fly through the turbulence and not be on the verge of, or stalling at landing." As I stated earlier this is completely incorrect. UNLESS you are loading a high performance wing with lots of air speed. 7 cells "9 times out of 10" are more likely to fly through turbulence unaffected than 9 cells in the same class canopy. You can SEE it with your own eyes on a windy or bumpy day. No one ever mentioned pumping the brakes on landing? Again, I've seen 9 cell canopies "of various types" get EXTREMELY unstable in bumpy air. Even drop a skydiver 20 feet to the ground in rotors. I have yet to see that happen on a 7 cell canopy? In response to: "Actually, most 9 cells have the _wider_ performance envelope. The 7 cells is just lower at the bottom end." 7 cells having a lower bottom end as well as the top end makes my point of a wider performance envelope. You made my point for me. Blue Skies! Stay safe... Rhino http://www.aerodyneusa.com/2thisisques2.html http://www.aerodyneusa.com/qhowdoiselpr.html

ROCK ON LISA!!! Good points.... When my SON starts skydiving, his first canopy will be a Triathlon "class" 7 cell. Anything else would be UNACCEPTABLE for my loved one.. Rhino

I agree...Rhino.. 2 different worlds...

I corrected the line.. The edit didn't stick.. Note sentence one.. Rhino.. My bust,,,

No, in fact I said there is LITTLE to NO comparison in the flight envelope of the TRI/Diablo vs. Extreme. Earlier discussions hinged on 7 vs. 9 cells. FOR A BEGINNER, the stability and forgiveness of a 7 cell CANNOT be touched by any 9 cell on the market. PERIOD. It's impossible. When I say 7 cells I mean, Tri, Diablo, Spectre, PD, Omega, among others. I am not a TRI/DIABLO fanatic. A good SAFE progression IF one was a TRI/Diablo fanatic would be to start with the Triathlon, Progress into the Diablo, and then move into the Extreme/Velocity/Crossfire/Stiletto 9+ cell category.. NOT IN COMPARISON TO EXTREME CANOPIES, Seven cells are safer and have a WIDER performance envelope ESPECIALLY for a low to mid range canopy pilot. And ESPECIALLY in bumpy, windy, turbulent conditions. Until you become a swooper/carver "ready to jump an extreme, crossfire, or velocity class canopy" Seven cell canopies like the Tri, Diablo, Spectre CANNOT be compared in flight envelopes. 7 cells save lives.. PERIOD. I've seen a Sabre FOLD and drop a skydiver 20 feet out of the air because she flew through rotors behind a hangar. I've seen a Triathlon take the same line and barely budge as far as rigidity in the air. It is a solid wing, more solid than any 9 cell in its class of canopy. Watch a Sabre come down in bumpy air, it looks like an accordion.. Watch any well built 7 Cell canopy like the Tri or Diablo, you WILL see a difference. Rhino

Also posted in 7 vs 9 cell forum,, We all know that the Triathlon/Diablo vs Extreme class canopy aren't even in the same league as far as canopy performance. That is why you don't see anyone with a Diablo 46 over his head.. Because a Diablo 46 probably wouldn't fly very well? Extreme FX and VX canopies are without a doubt the best made for swooping. I don't believe it would be possible for a Diablo loaded at 2.0 to even think about flying in the same airspace as an Extreme loaded at 2.0. The 7 cell canopies are made with different performance characteristics in mind. 9 cell ellipticals are made for one or so things.. To impress all of us with their speed!! They are fast and very entertaining in the hands of a good pilot. That is exactly what it takes to fly one of those canopies highly loaded "A PILOT"! I think beginners "Low time canopy pilots with little time wrenching their canopies in and out of its flight envelope at both low speed and high speed" Have no business under an Extreme loaded at 2.0.. I've seen too many skydivers that downsized to fast for their skill level fly right into the ground, making the good swoopers look bad, driving potential skydivers away from the sport. On the other hand the Triathlon and Diablo are more forgiving in their low speed flight characteristics. You can STOP a Diablo or a Tri on a dime, if you stab the brakes on an Extreme my guess is you are going to go ballistic! OR back into the air. UP UP AND AWAY!! Maybe the issue here is canopy progression? Not what out performs what? For a low time canopy pilot a seven cell Tri or Diablo will probably keep you alive longer. Of my last 200 jumps at least one out of five was a hop and pop at altitude 13,000 ft+. I have ALL standup landings. The reason I do this is simple, I want to know EVERY aspect of the flight envelope of my canopy. Front risers, rear risers, weight shift in the harness, stalls, and recoveries. A couple of years ago I asked Charlie Mullins what it took to make a good canopy pilot? Since then I play around up high not down low.. I weigh 155 lbs, putting my first 150 jumps on a Triathlon 150 gave me a wing loading of 1.25. I learned EVERYTHING that my canopy could do. Which wasn’t a whole lot at 1.25. But I KNOW what it can do and I can pull myself out of anything with that thing. I demo’d a Diablo 120 as well as an Extreme FX114, I KNEW the Extreme for the moment was out of my league and I was not loading it enough to take advantage of what it is made for. The Diablo120 still had the low speed characteristics that I was comfortable with. And I could speed it up as fast as I was comfortable going. My point is this again, nothing can touch an Extreme with a good pilot… But until you are a good canopy pilot starting with a more solid, forgiving, yet high performance 7 cell like the Tri or Daiblo is a SAFE thing to do that could keep you in the sport longer. Safe being a relative term to your common sense. Blue Skies! I hope this helps someone.. Rhino Edited by rhino on 6/7/01 10:52 AM.

We all know that the Triathlon and Diablo aren't even in the same league as an Extreme as far as canopy performance. That is why you don't see anyone with a Diablo 46 over his head.. Because a Diablo 46 probably wouldn't fly very well? Extreme FX and VX canopies are without a doubt the best made for swooping. I don't believe it would be possible for a Diablo loaded at 2.0 to even think about flying in the same airspace as an Extreme loaded at 2.0. The 7 cell canopies are made with different performance characteristics in mind. 9 cell ellipticals are made for one or so things.. To impress all of us with their speed!! They are fast and very entertaining in the hands of a good pilot. That is exactly what it takes to fly one of those canopies highly loaded "A PILOT"! I think beginners "Low time canopy pilots with little time wrenching their canopies in and out of its flight envelope at both low speed and high speed" Have no business under an Extreme loaded at 2.0.. I've seen too many skydivers that downsized to fast for their skill level fly right into the ground, making the good swoopers look bad, driving potential skydivers away from the sport. On the other hand the Triathlon and Diablo are more forgiving in their low speed flight characteristics. You can STOP a Diablo or a Tri on a dime, if you stab the brakes on an Extreme my guess is you are going to go ballistic! OR back into the air. UP UP AND AWAY!! Maybe the issue here is canopy progression? Not what out performs what? For a low time canopy pilot a seven cell Tri or Diablo will probably keep you alive longer. Of my last 200 jumps at least one out of five was a hop and pop at altitude 13,000 ft+. I have ALL standup landings. The reason I do this is simple, I want to know EVERY aspect of the flight envelope of my canopy. Front risers, rear risers, weight shift in the harness, stalls, and recoveries. A couple of years ago I asked Charlie Mullins what it took to make a good canopy pilot? Since then I play around up high not down low.. I weigh 155 lbs, putting my first 150 jumps on a Triathlon 150 gave me a wing loading of 1.25. I learned EVERYTHING that my canopy could do. Which wasn’t a whole lot at 1.25. But I KNOW what it can do and I can pull myself out of anything with that thing. I demo’d a Diablo 120 as well as an Extreme FX114, I KNEW the Extreme for the moment was out of my league and I was not loading it enough to take advantage of what it is made for. The Diablo120 still had the low speed characteristics that I was comfortable with. And I could speed it up as fast as I was comfortable going. My point is this again, nothing can touch an Extreme with a good pilot… But until you are a good canopy pilot starting with a more solid, forgiving, yet high performance 7 cell like the Tri or Daiblo is a SAFE thing to do that could keep you in the sport longer. Safe being a relative term to your common sense. Blue Skies! I hope this helps someone.. Rhino

What do you mean by twitchiest?

http://www.aerodyneusa.com/2thisisques2.html Go here for your info on 9 cell vs 7 cell. If you are already loading at 1.3 be patient. Wait for 200 jumps or so before downsizing. No rush. I would suggest moving from a 9 cell to 7 cell though... Rhino,

Best flair as in the most bottom end. I jumped an ExtremeFx114 and a Diablo120. The Extreme never quit flying "quiet amazing actually" The Diablo got to a point at the bottom end where it simply ran out of gas in the air. Where the Extreme didn't? They are 2 different worlds and cannot be compaired. My reference was not in swooping. As I do not swoop I could not possibly argue the point. Although I can argue the STOPPING or flairing capability of a 9 cell vs a 7 cell.. 7 Cells stop faster, can fly slower, and have a "wider" performance envelope. Put the Triathlon or Diablo against a Sabre or a Stiletto "as an example" in an emergency, the guy on the 7 cells "if he knows how to fly it" would out perform the 9 cell canopies in the bottom end and save his butt. I enjoy the Triathlon and ESPECIALLY the Diablo because of the flight envelope, it can be flown fast or very slow. Try and sink in a stiletto? It's not made for that. Rhino

I own a Racer NOS. Comfortable, fast reserve, and Fail Safe.. Look up that word :) It's important. I love my Racer. Blue Skies!! Rhino.