Mockingbird

Sorry, that's exactly what I want to avoid. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Do you know for sure 1) that the whole world has read the entire bible in order to determine the central message? 2) that your claim is even correct? George, you've lost me. I don't think so. But only God knows. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[By "accuracy and reliability" you're referring to the bible's content rather than to textual matters, right? Because I have looked a great deal into its textual credibility.] In subjecting evidence to what God has provided as revelation (the bible), yes, I'm giving that revelation the benefit of the doubt. Unlike AiG, I'm still at the inquisitive stage. They have lots of combined experience that probably makes them impatient with the so-called contradictions that they've already reconciled. Yes, I know it must sound quite weird to you. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about that. I wish I had the gift of persuasion--- wait, no I don't... that's not my job. None of us should ever stop asking questions. There's always more to learn. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Well, not exactly. I believe that the supernatural is beyond reason, not necessarily against reason. Stars are light years away from the earth, no? If God intended the stars he put in existence to be seen from the earth, wouldn't they need to be given a kind of "apparent" age at their creation? Again we have to admit, IMO, that the basic problem with our disagreement is philosophical rather than scientific. You almost admitted the possibility of an open mind but before you even finished what you were typing you closed it again. just reread what you wrote , the implication is under no circumstances will you consider the bible to be in error. I cannot think of a more perfect example of closed mind than that. That one's mind is open to the possibility that even his own reasoning could be lacking is the epitome of open-mindedness. I have more confidence in God's wisdom than my own. That, to me, is being truly open-minded. See, even our concepts of what is open-minded and what is closed-minded are incompatible. Again, due to philosophical differences. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Jesus, my family, my best friend Anthony, Ripken my heart-dog, another chance to jump from a plane and learn from my last mistake.

All done! The last question was a bit humorous I thought. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

No, I read all of them. But I felt that they boiled down to the same problem: a deficiency in literary interpretation. Well, that and the fact that the supernatural [beyond the natural; transcending the natural, and thus not explainable by scientific methods] nature of the act of creation is ignored, which to my thinking makes these objections strawmen. I'm sorry; I'm not trying to be difficult. I doubt that you are either. Our disagreement is much more basic. I believe in God, who by nature is supernatural; you believe only in what is natural, so how could you possibly make sense of the [supernatural] events of creation??? now Ill note that you dont include even the possibility that you would consider that "scriptual record" was simply wrong. You wil consider it to be misintrepted but you wont consider it to be wrong.That perhaps gives us an insight into how closed minded religious minds are. I for example, dont have a single book that I wont change my opinion on if the evidence demands it. Aaah, but do you own a book written by God? No, I might consider the possibiility that a "scriptural record" is wrong; but that would certainly be my last resort. Then I'd whack my forehead and admit that the problem must be my own. There are some details which God simply has not disclosed in the bible. But all that is essential, He has. Science fills in a lot of the blanks. I believe that He created the laws of nature; science has discovered them. I think I may be rambling now. It's quite late, and I feel that I've been writing all--day---long and have switched tracks a thousand times trying to keep up. From my LiveJournal to dz.com to email to deciding what services to have done on my car this week, to having several phone conversations--- too much for one day... must... get...sleepzzz zzzzzz zzzzzzzzz z Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Scott, I love your "Toy Trouble" photos!! You're the only other person I know whose website has old family photos too! Nice. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Hmmm, some things are better left unsaid. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I understand what you're saying. But the central message of the Bible (that is what we're still talking about, right?) contains no confusion or mystery at all: **Acceptance of Christ is the only way to be made right with God. This is its explicit message. Everything culminates in Christ. **Waiver: I'm NOT "insisting" that you believe this; the decision to believe it or reject it is yours alone. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You may find this hard to believe, but I agree with you. I couldn't fully trust what the Bible teaches if I were to find obvious errors in it. But I haven't found any errors which have not already been dealt with and/or attributed to misunderstanding on the part of the reader. Note: As I've said before, it's the original documents that I believe to be "inspired" (guided) by God in their writing, not the copies and copies of copies. Some, if not all, the copies do contain errors (that is, differences), BUT if I believe that God guided the authors as they wrote in order that through them He might reveal important truth to people down through the ages, I must of necessity believe that He would also preserve the message-- that is, protect the message from being distorted through all the copying and translating. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Well.... ok. But you go first. If I have to repeat myself (hopefully with better wording), I'll need you to re-post what I was replying to. Ya' gotta' admit, it's hard to keep up with. Ok.. well it is for me. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Sounds a bit extreme. If I were shown evidence that contradicts the "scriptural record," I'd see if there were any way the two actually could be reconciled (this is commonly overlooked in such contradictions), and if not, I'd study the scriptural record more deeply to see if the problem had to do with a flawed interpretation. But that's just me. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Do I look like i just fell off the turnip truck or something? (Never mind--- my user pic does look a little like I just fell off a turnip truck... or some kind of truck... or maybe like I forgot to flare again.) How could anyone reading this thread think we're all Christians? Most people are non-Christians not because they don't "get" the central message of the Bible, but because they either don't believe the central message of the bible (i.e., the gospel), or they simply don't care, or they're afraid of what it might cost them... or other reasons. Well, this is definitely not enough. Jehowa Witnesses agree on that as well, but probably it is the only thing they agree with Christians you mentioned. I think it is enough! Acceptance of Christ is at the very heart of Christianity. By the way, Jehovah's Witnesses don't share the same gospel as evangelical Christians. (But I really don't want to get into that, if you don't mind.)

I love Skype. Even made it part of my sig line a few weeks ago. Ha ha. I know, weird thing for a sig line. I was in a mood at the time... I especially like video-skypeing with my best friend and my brother. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

What I learned about my Airedale today is that when he gets on his beds (he sleeps on three piled one on top of the other), his butt always aims for the center, where he plops it down first and then the rest of his body follows... which always leaves him sprawled out on only half the bed but his head hangs over the edge. Always. I guess dogs (at least mine) don't think ahead. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I hear ya'. I often feel a oneness, so to speak, with what I see in the outdoors. It's almost eerie. Don't usually talk about it when I'm feeling it 'cos I figure it's probably just me. Glad to know that's not the case! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Again, to insist that the Bible is erroneous because it calls the moon a "light" is unfair and/or indicates a lack knowledge in literary interpretation. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Wow, do they really say that? Ok then. Show me the geological evidence for a global flood. Include if possible where the water came from and where it went. If I tried that, I'd be in over my head. (Get it? ) No, seriously, I'm unable to do that. True, I could go to Answers in Genesis or whatever, but I'm more interested in stressing that evidence exists for Christianity proper... i.e., for Christ and for his claims, and even for the bible which reveals him to us. But these evidences have been brought up many times over in Speaker's Corner-- true, maybe you haven't seen all of them, but they're there. And frankly, it would be much simpler to just refer to Evidence Which Demands a Verdict than to wade through all the posts which have pointed out a few of the same evidences. Simpler only if you're more interested in arriving at the facts than just volleying words back and forth. Anyway, I hope this clarifies my main concerns in the whole discussion. I suspect that I come across here (in Speaker's Corner) as too self-assured, or even patronizing. Please believe me when I say that I realize that I DON'T have all the answers. I could lead people astray (tho' not on purpose!) as well as anyone. I'm doing the best I can with what I've learned over the past 50 years. The subject we discuss isn't an easy one. And yet the body of what I believe--- coming from the claims of Christ--- is quite uncomplicated. Profound, I think, but simple. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

It is very easy to say something like that. But at the same time it is completely useless. Maybe I didn't understand what you meant, or there is still possibility that your reply was not clear. It would be waste of time guessing; could you please elaborate your answer? What I mean is, please re-read my reply. If doing so doesn't make any difference in what you understand it to be saying, then I'll try again. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Their testability is not indicative of their existence. Isn't that what makes them supernatural? (I'm not insisting that you believe in the supernatural God. I just have hopes that at the end, each of us will have arrived at the truth.) Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Frank, thanks for posting your picture. Now I realize which "Dave" this thread is remembering. This is a sad day. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Neither does yours, right? We can't express our beliefs without giving proof that they are inerrant? Who are "the people" you are referring to who can't agree on the central message of the Bible? Every Christian I've talked to recently knows what the central message of the Bible is. True, every religion has its own creed, which is often, if not usually, exclusive. And in the evangelical Christian religion, all denominations have creeds (usually referred to as "doctrinal statements"), all of which have relatively minor disagreements. But the central belief is held by all Christians: acceptance of Christ as one's Savior is how each of us is made right with God. This central belief may be variously worded, but the concept is the same. Does the moon look like a light in the night sky? Have you ever been able to read something by the light of the moon? To insist that the Bible is erroneous because it calls the moon a "light" is unfair and/or indicates a lack knowlege in literary interpretation. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Walt, I'm so sorry. Cannie Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You are reading far too much into my two statements. If one is not willing to follow the evidence for the reliability of scripture texts, the life of Christ and His claims wherever that evidence may lead him, he cannot arrive at truth. He'll only arrive at the presuppositions he began with; i.e., there is no such thing as the supernatural and therefore there is no such thing as God or the Jesus Christ of the bible. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"