SBS

it was funny, though. :-)

Although it is put in a funny way, and as always, I am more likely to keep my eye on the young muslim man in an airplane than the grandmother sitting next to me with her crochet hook, I will still not ignore the fact that they can recruit ANYONE to do their dirty work. That is assuming that ALL of the dirty work there is to be done is on the part of these radical muslim extremists. Let me ask you a question: The federal building in Oklahoma City was bombed by: A) Nicole Kidman B) Me C) A white guy who loved his mother and his country D) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 If you were going to have to get someone through security, who would be the last person that you would choose for the job? A) A woman B) A child C) A grandmother D) A Muslim male between the ages of 17 and 40 If you were a woman running through a park and were confronted by a man, would you rather that he be: A) White B) Black C) Asian D) Muslim (hint: consider what percentage of serial killers are white males) So, when you accidently bump into a woman who is running through a park and are maced because she assumed that you were a serial killer, you will: A) Be in pain B) Be hurt C) Be pissed off D) A,B, and C E) Say it's ok, you understand, it's just profiling. F) Be upset with how irrationally the lady reacted, because she should clearly understand that although a large percentage of serial killers are white males, that doesn't mean that a large percentage of white males are serial killers, and thus, should not make you subject to profiling. :-) Come on...think man, think.

It is all about finding the right person. -------------- I think I just figured out my problem... I've been looking for the wrong person all along... :-)

Dare I ask how you know so much detail concerning this technique? --------------------------- AUTO REPLY - Steve is currently slamming his head in the door for thinking of the last post, let alone, posting it. He will respond to any posts upon his return, unless his slit wrists have caused him to bleed to death by such time. Thank you.

I thought your favorite technique was to lay them on their back so you can french kiss them at the same time !! ----------------------- This is so wrong, but I'm not going to be the only one with this image... Being on its back, the sheep has no footing to push back, so wraps its hooves around its lover, pulling for dear life, its head draped back over the edge of the cliff in an intense melange of terror and ecstasy. I'm going to go say a few hail mary's and bang my head on the pavement... :-)

I thought your favorite technique was to lay them on their back so you can french kiss them at the same time !! ---------------- Oh my god, the images...make them stop!!! :-)

back to meaningless sex I guess... ---------------------- Gonna be in California anytime soon? ;-)

Not if you treat them right...lol... ----------------- Oh, yeah, that...a technicality. :-)

OK...thats it......I'm not pulling on the next jump!!!! ------------------------ Oh....damn.... sorry, I need to be nicer... Um... Oh....GOD!....what have I done???...Oh, say it isn't true...*tear*...Why God, Why???...*as I collapse to the floor in hysterics, face in my cupped hands, tears dripping from between my fingers*... I love you man... :-)

I tend to think girls will say No to anyone a lot faster than a young dude. --------------------- Yes, they do have a horrible tennancy of saying no, don't they? :-) Steve

You mean there's hope for me too????? --------------------------- Except you. Sorry, didn't mean to get your hopes up. :-) Steve

(I'm not too appealing I guess.) ----------------- No, pic...can't confirm or deny. Everyone has people out there to whom they are appealing...the trick is finding that person who is also appealing to you...that's the real bitch. :-) Steve

No, no refund...after all, she got to be strapped to me...that was worth the price of admission right there. :-) A agree Seb, but I've seen a lot of people terrified at the door, etc., but get out and love freefall. When they are conceptualizing, they are scared out of their minds, and say they would never do it. I have seen bunches of people who have said that they wouldn't do it again, but very few that have actually said that they did not like it. I think they're just nuckin futs. Freefall rocks. :-) Steve

Ok, not really. Not as far as I am concerned at least. I took a girl on a tandem this morning, though, who was only the second person I have seen that really didn't like freefall. I talked her all the way to the door, got out (she was fine, arched great), didn't freak out or anything, and then under canopy, loved it, but was holding onto the harness terrified. As far as the freefall was concerned, she said everything but come right out and say "I hated it". So, curious, how many people has everyone seen, friends, family, random jumpers, etc., that really didn't like their jump? Not like it just didn't excite them like they thought it would, but they really did not like it. Steve

Being alone sucks sheep balls!!! Or was that, "being alone leads to sucking sheep balls"? Or was that... Oh, nevermind, could someone (eh hem...who will remain nameless) please clear this up for me? Thanks, Steve

Yeah, she was pretty shitty to my mom once. Aside from that, though, I still don't find her funny. Steve

even if rape was socially acceptable I still wouldn't do it, and it would have nothing to do with my penis size. ------------------------- I still don't see how you can make a statement about who you would be if you were raised in a completely different time and place. I certainly don't know who I would be. Hell, I didn't think I would go beyond my first jump the week before I did AFF. Here I am 4 years later, and it's my entire life. There can be drastic changes in our lives from one day to the next based on what happens to us...if you were to erase all of our experiences and start fresh completely differently, there isn't really much chance that you would be recognizable as being the same person at all. ------------------------- I feel like this discussion is going in circles now, because you are saying things that I already expected you to say. ------------------ As you have also said things that I expected you to say. That doesn't mean that either of us are wrong for saying them. You had already presumed that I would be able to find some sort of social impact that would lead to any example you would find. Does that mean that I am wrong, or does that mean that you can't come up with an example that you can prove to me would disprove the theory? Sounds more to me like the second. As you had already made the CYA statement that I would just say that your opinions were formed by society, I tried to explain my reasoning, rather than a simple "you're wrong". ------------------ But society can't develop originally from society. ----------------- But there are aspects to society that without the existence of the society, would not exist themselves. What do you think is more likely when time began, that a man met a woman for the first time and said "I respect you", or that two people met, figured out that they could help eachother to survive through performing different operations in a household, and reproducing, and thus formed a union? What are the chances that the first human men got horny, wanted sex when the women didn't, then forced the women into relations, figured out that they got pissed off, it was detrimental to the society as a whole because it effected the work that the others did towards the betterment of the society, and thus they said, "hmmm we should have their consent first"? ----------------- Somewhere it starts with individuals who have their own views that are simply based on them thinking things through and making decisions based on that for themselves. ----------------- And how long ago was this? To say that the first human was not influenced by society is reasonable, but in order for the species to continue a society was formed and began influencing its members. Imagine this...a society is formed...it starts off where people don't pay for anything, until one day, a guy gets a wild hair up his ass because he felt like he did more work in the tribe than the other guy, and deserved just compensation...i.e.-the better piece of meat at the table that night. So, money is created to create some sort of equality, and thus, people now have to pay for what we take to make things fair. I don't want to draw out the examples for everything...but apply it to what we have been talking about. It's a lot easier to beleive than the idea that we were just born knowing "we shouldn't rape women", "we shoudln't steal", etc. etc. etc. --------------------------- Based on how I understand your version of social conditioning, there would never be changes in how society views anything. --------------------------- It most certainly does change. It just does not change overnight. It changes little by little, it evolves. Even if there is revolution, it may change a society superficially, but it takes years for the members of the society to catch up with it. For example, even though our laws say that blacks are equal to whites, there are still those who will never see them as equals, and will give birth and raise those who don't see them as equals, etc. etc. etc. It's like putting a drop of oil in water, stirring it, and watching it gradually change into water itsself. -------------------- In an argument, you can never prove you're right. The best you can do is prove that they are more wrong. -------------------- True to a point...depends on the arguement. I have to get to class, I have a test. :-) Good night. Steve PS - Even though it was circular at times, I really have enjoyed the day's discussion. Thank you.

TELL US!!!! I NEED TO KNOW...I mean, some people here might find this information useful. :-) Steve

sorry...thanks for doing it for me, though. :-) I got 14/16...one wrong each way. Steve

You gotta try this...and post the scores...be honest!!! http://www.howdido.com/femaleorshemale/ :-) Steve

Even if rape were "socially acceptable," what would stop me would be my empathy with the person who does not want to have sex with me. Regardless of what my desires might be, if she didn't want to be with me, then there would zero pleasure gained from my forcing myself on her. Understanding how she felt would severely mute or obliterate any desire I might have had to be with her (regardless of society saying that it is ok). Sex is more complicated than just a physical act between two people and in order to have good satisfying sex, the emotions and desires of the two involved need to mesh at some level. This won't happen with rape, even if society says rape is fine, and thus I would not rape her. If you care about your fellow human beings then what that one person feels about what you do will be more important in the moment than what has been deemed allowable by society. ------------------------- Again, you have been raised with certain beliefs about sex. Sex is not the same from person to person, and not the same from culture to culture. I wouldn't find sexual satisfaction from a child, but there are those who do, and pay for 12 year old hookers in Thailand. In this statement, you're basically saying that empathy towards the opposite sex has nothing to do with culture and upbringing, and even if you had been raised completely differently, the empathy would stay. I think that has been proven absolutely untrue by the general sentiment towards women in the middle east for the past centuries, or women in African tribes, etc. -------------------------------- Another example: Our society has deemed it appropriate to report crimes that you find out about to the proper authorities. However, that doesn't mean that if a close friend came to me and told me of a crime that he committed, that I would then report this to the police. Doesn't mean I wouldn't but it doesn't mean I would. Once again, emotions and relationships that are completely independent of society come into play. ---------------- a) social acceptibility does not necessarily correspond directly to the laws of the land. b) In making a decision to report or not report a crime, you are making the decision of which is more important in your set of values, to remain true to a friend, or to regard the laws as having more importance in this case. Although you are supposed to report any crime, the severity of the crime weighed along side the value that you place on the friendship will determine whether you follow through with what the law states you must do. I, personally, think that how you regard the law is going to be determined by where and how you were raised, as in an example of "shooting someone is ok because he stole from me". Personally, if someone steals from me, I'm upset, but I'm sure as hell not going to shoot him. Ellie Nessler was a lady who lived not far from me in the mountains between Yosemite and Lake Tahoe when I was growing up. She shot the man who was on trial for molesting her son. Now, what do you think the sentiment towards her is, when people hear this story. The law says she was wrong, but how many people do you think said, "I would have done the same thing" or at least "I understand, I would have wanted to do the same thing". Now, if we didn't live in a place where everyone was raised to believe that killing was wrong, and everyone should get due process, how many child molesters do you think would even make it as far as the courtroom? You can respect the law but make the decision that you are not going to follow it because you believe that your ideals are more important. Again, I don't think this is a biological issue as much as one of where, when, and how you were raised. Steve

a) Just as it takes years to build trust and one lie to break it, I could go on for years with examples, but it would only take one from you to disprove it. b) When we talk about society, the variations that are introduced to different people will break nearly each individual into their own sort of society, in some cases. There are some that you could generalize, like the amish, for example, or true buddhists, etc. It is not something that can be generalized into Americans, Arabs, Chinese, Blacks, Whites, etc. There are arabs that were born in the US, there are blacks that live in the African Bush, Malibu, and Watts, etc etc etc. Same with Whites, Asians, etc. Ok, examples, which still have to be hypothetical, because to say otherwise would be to assume that we know the right way, and other things are wrong.... I don't believe that running an airliner into a building is right. Had I been raised by Osama BinLaden in that region, my sentiments regarding the US and my morals would be different, so it is likely that I would not look down upon him in the same way that I do now. I don't believe that it is right for children to conveniently disappear when their existance will put my family over it's quota. If I were born and raised in China, I would likely see it as the only option, and thus conveniently lose my child. If someone looks crosseyed at me, I'll probably look at him funny. I am not going to shoot him. If I were born and raised around gangs, and had been in one all my life, I may just look at that person, shoot him, and then say that he deserved it because he disrespected me or my family. We are not talking about people doing things that they think are wrong because they are socially acceptible...I am saying that these people would have never looked at these things as wrong because of how they were raised. If we take me as person A and transplant me into another society, that of person B, I will still hold to many of the beliefs that have been ingrained into me by my society. What I am saying is to raise a person A in a person B society will influence who that person becomes, and his morals, religion, etc., and completely change who he/she is. No I would not go into society B, where rape is ok, and feel like it was ok to rape the women. If I had been raised there, though, and had no reason to believe that it was wrong, then what reason would I have not to force myself on someone? Most all of us, with the rare, rare exception, have an urge to have sex with another person. When they say no, what stops us, other than the commonly held belief that rape is wrong? Steve

Hell will freeze over when someone actually changes their mind during a political, religious, or philisophical debate on DZ.com. ------------------------- Sometimes reason comes from the most unlikely places... :-) Steve

I think that this thread was doomed from the get go. I am willing to bet that a majority of these accidents were human error and not equipment error................. -------------------- Even if 100% equipment error, that does not make them a reasonable commentary on the entire skydiving industry. Steve

all that is necessary for it to be wrong is one exception. ----------------------- **and I am asking you for just one example. ----------------------- that exception will be there. ----------------------- **Which is why I detailed out the a/b/c arguements above. The exceptions come after the belief is formed, but before the result. -------------------- I don't see how I have any reason to make any argument against it, considering that I specifically stated that I was just presenting my opinion. ------------------------- **In my world, when someone comes in and makes a statement contridicting that of another, it is reasonable to ask for an explaination, as opposed to simply saying "that's ludicrous". If you think it's ludicrous, you obviously have a reason, and I am truely interested in your reason. Intellectual development happens when speaking to people who agree with you, and many times more so, when you speak with those who do not. ----------------------------- because anything I say won't make a difference to the people who actually disagree with me, ----------------------------- **Of course it will, IF you present a reasonable arguement. ----------------------------- I'm no rapist, so I don't know this for a fact, but I think that if someone wanted to rape someone else, penis size wouldn't be much of a factor in that decision. ------------------------------- a) this is a random example of any one of a million reasons that may come into play as part b of the arguements detailed in my last post. Plug in anything you would like. b) if one is a rapist in today's society, you are correct, size is not going to be a big factor. However, if you put yourself into the shoes of someone who, in order to commit rape, does not have to overcome the commonly held belief that rape is wrong, then penis size may be a factor. People avoid intimacy today because of things that are pettier than that. If we lived in this twisted society where rape was ok, some of the same reasons why people today may avoid intimacy could apply, and would likely apply, to sexual issues in this different place. -------------------------- Doesn't make it true, regardless of how nicely worded what you say is. -------------------------- a) thank you. I take that as a compliment that you consider what I wrote to be nicely worded. b) I am not saying that because I believe it, it has to be true. I believe that it is true, but not because I believe it. I don't know for a fact that it is true, but the only way to build upon beliefs and possibly change them in discovering new ones, is to create an arguement for what you believe and wait for response. c) Just like you say that my beliefs don't make something true, your disbeliefs don't make it false. That is why I keep asking for reason behind your statements. We can have an emotional arguement until the end of time, saying "you're wrong", "no, you're wrong", "NO! you're wrong!". That doesn't get anyone anywhere. ------------------------------------- because people get it in their heads that their way of looking at things is absolute truth ------------------------------------- **I hold firmly to the belief that we will never, as long as on this earth, know the absolute truth and know that we know it. If there is an afterlife, in which we live among that truth, maybe then we will come to know. I, personally, don't believe that anyone knows what happens after we die, so I have to go with what I do know, and what I believe...that we are here on this earth now, and at this time, we may know the absolute truth, but at the same time, we don't know if our reasoning if flawed...so, even if we know, we don't really know if we know. We would have to know that our reasoning is perfect in order to know that we had reached what was, in fact, the absolute truth, and we can't know that. So, the best way that we have to grow and get closer to this truth is to start with open minds, and have discussions like this one. I really am truely interested in what you have to say, and if presented with an arguement that is reasonable that contradicts what I have said, will change my point of view. So, I'm up to keep going if you are. :-) Steve