steve1

I did a little research lately on the 50 calibers use as a sniper weapon. Seal teams are using two versions of a shoulder fired 50 caliber. One is semi-auto. The other is a bolt action made by McMillian. The McMillian is single shot, but some versions also have a clip magazine. The Mcmillian sells for around $7,000 and is still legal to buy for civilian use. That could be changing soon. A sniper in Iraq recently made a confirmed kill at over 2,000 yards with one. This is kind of morbid talk, but it does show the effective range of one of these. I'd never buy one for civilian use, mostly because I don't know what I'd use it for, but what a weapon!....Steve1

Terry, Fred and I learned to pack chest pack reserves in the same class (back in about 74). We were taught by an old Master Rigger, Smoke Jumper, Jack Nash. Jack went to the great drop zone in the sky many years ago. He was one of the jumpmasters (squad leader) that dropped the jumpers on the Mann Gulch Fire. They made a movie out of that in about 1953. He claimed to be the oldest smoke jumper ever trained. Whether or not that is true, I don't know, but he was quite a character in his day. I know an ex-sport jumper turned smoke jumper in Missoula. (Mark Wright). I know he was a rigger. I'll have to get in touch with him. Thanks, .....Steve1

Lou, Sniper school would be a a great education on long distance shooting. I'm sure it would be extremely demanding and not many folks are capable of that kind of work. I can only imagine how hard an ultra long shot would be to make in a combat situation. Most of us can only wonder what that would be like. Even at targets most of us are incapable of making shots like that.....Steve1

The 50 caliber is an awesome round. Pick one up and look at it, and you know what I mean. The only 50 caliber I've fired was of the old machine gun variety. But man, was that thing ever flat shooting. I don't know for sure how much steel it could shoot thru, but with armor piercing bullets, I'd say a lot. I don't know much about tanks. Maybe it wouldn't penetrate one of those. Maybe they're too thick. But an aluminum type aircraft should be a piece of cake (if you could hit it). That might be tough if they're going a couple hundred miles per hour through the air....Steve1

Anybody remember the little red jump logs. They each held a hundred jumps and most everyone had them in the early 70's......Steve1

Maybe there are automatic weapons out there that can shoot as well as a bolt action. In my experience I've never shot one or seen one that could group as well as a bolt action, so I guess I've developed somewhat of a prejudice against them in that respect. Maybe I need a new automatic to try out, and I might change my mind. I don't think you need to lay out a ton of cash for an accurate custom rifle. I do think, if you can do some of your own gunsmith work such as trigger work, glass bedding, and start with a good rifle to begin with such as a model 700, you can end up with a rifle that will shoot as good as any custom rig. Reloading is a big part of this. It's important to match the right custom reload to that rifle. You can get a nice Leupold scope Vari II. for around $300. Maybe they aren't quite as clear as the $1,000 or more scopes, but for the price they are a real bargain. An 800 yard shot is a tough thing to make. In my mind you need a very flat shooting accurate rifle. The really hard part is judging whether this is exactly 800 yards or is it 900 or only 650. Having a flatter shooting rifle can spell the difference between a hit or a miss. You may not be carrying a range finder or have time to use one. Your range finder may be off. And then there is usually some wind to allow for or possibly mirage. So, in my mind, I'd like a rifle that can shoot flat, and buck the wind well, if I plan to take that occaisional long shot. Maybe I've been selling the 308 short. I looked at some ballistic charts last night, and was impressed. I've always been a big fan of the 30/06 and just assumed that since the 06 is longer it must be a lot flatter shooting. According to my book the 308 can be loaded almost as hot as the 30/06, so maybe I need to rethink that one. I use a 22-250 a lot on everything from prairie dogs to coyotes to an occaisional deer and antelope here in Montana. It seems like it is very much affected by wind. I usually load a 55 grain bullet in it. I would imagine a heavier bullet would buck the wind better. But wouldn't you also be losing a lot trajectory wise with the heavier bullets. I would also like to see how much a 22 caliber bullet would drop in comparison to say a 300 magnum at a 1,000 yards. My reloading manuals only show out to 500 yards and the heaviest round shown in 22 caliber there is 60 grains. But even with that lighter weight bullet there is considerable difference in trajectory. It just seems to me that you would be really handicapping yourself by using 223 in a situation where the shots are extremely long and where the wind usually is blowing. I know magnums kick a lot, make a lot of noise, and I'm not a big fan of them, but the bottom line is that many of them are extremely flat shooting. Barrel life is also shorter in many of them. Accuracy will start falling off sooner if you shoot a ton of rounds through them. Some are worse than others in this respect. Sometimes this barrel life gets exaggerated though. But these are factors to keep in mind. One other thing to consider is that most folks don't shoot a magnum as well as they can a rifle with less recoil. I usually don't. Some couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their ultra hot magnum because it just kicks too much and sounds like a bomb going off every time they touch the trigger, and they end up flinching like hell. I hope I don't raise anyone's hackles by throwing this out there. These are my opinions, and I respect my fellow gun owners.....Steve1

Have you been listening to Barbara Boxer? -------reply] Never heard of Barbara Boxer. I've heard there has been some scuttlebut by the media lately about the possibility of terrorists possibly using 50 caliber sniper weapons to shoot down airliners. Maybe she is part of this???.....Steve1

I haven't heard of US armed forces using a single shot .50, only the semi-auto (M107) and bolt action reply] I've seen documentaries of seal teams using this weapon. As near as I could tell it was single shot...and was bolt action....

Terry, Thanks for the info. The Master Rigger I mentioned is Fred Sands at Lost Prairie. I think he has the rating you mentioned. I know I need to learn an awful lot, and have forgotten a great deal more. Maybe I'd be smart to just take a complete course again. I'm just trying to figure out a way to legally pack my own reserve . I live in a really remote area and it's a real pain to even find another rigger to get that job done. And yes, I'm sure it is a lot more involved than the old chest packs I used to pack for $5.00 each back in the olden days.....Steve1

QuoteUnless you got your chest rating long before you started skydiving 8 years ago, I can't figure out how your chest could have been that long ago. Mine was in 1985 and that's fairly recent. reply] Actually I started jumping about thirty years ago and got my chest rating then. Yes, I was out of the sport for a long time. I'm just curious about what would be involved and that sort of thing. I talked to one master rigger who said that I would need a senior rigger to supervise 20 pack jobs and then he could test my abilities. Thanks for the input.....Steve1

And don't forget the 50 caliber. This is an ultra-flat round. The military now issues these in a single shot shoulder fired weapon. You can shoot through inches of solid steel with one of these. This would have to be the ultimate sniper weapon for the military. It wouldn't probably work too well for shooting in town by police though. I would imagine this weapon would also be extremely expensive. I think they are available. They might also be heavy to pack, but think of the ranges you could shoot with one. The only 50 caliber I've fired was in the military. It had the butterfly thumb triggers on it, and was belt fed. With tracers you could could reach way and the hell out there, with little or no drop. I heard they even mounted scopes on these and used them as sniper weapons in Vietnam, for defending base camps....Steve1

I don't mean to knock anyones choice of rifle. If it works well for you, go with it. I really enjoyed shooting AR's and M-16s, but few would consider these a long range weapon out to 800 yards. A 223 round is very accurate out to 300 yards or so, but really falls off accuracy wise beyond that. The bullet is so light it is easily affected by wind and other factors. Also it is very difficult to find an automatic weapon that is as accurate as a bolt action. You can accurize an automatic with dramatic results, but seldom will they shoot as well as a good bolt action that has been tuned properly. The Army used M-14's for a while as sniper weapons, but I think most of these have been fazed out in favor of bolt actions. I think the standard sniper round is in 308. This is a very accurate round that bucks the wind well, but I wonder why they didn't go with something like the 30/06 or 300 Winchester which were used as sniper rounds in Vietnam. They may not be quite as accurate as a 308 if you are measuring tiny groups, but they are also flatter shooting. But then again they have more recoil and noise too, so I guess it's up to the shooter what he wants. To ring maximum velocity out of a 300 magnum you really need a 26 inch barrel which is awful long. I would think a 7 MM magnum would also make a great sniper weapon for military or police work. Or just a great hunting or target rifle. You could get by with 24 inch barrel . They are very accurate and flat shooting. But again, go with a bolt action if you want super accuracy for long range shots. Many Vietnam era snipers didn't like the early day model 700 rifles they were issued. The rifle was great, but they were all in 308 which many snipers felt couldn't shoot as far as the Winchester rifles that they had used earlier, which were in 30/06 or 300 Winchester magnum. Also put a good quality scope on whatever you choose. An iron sight just covers up too much of your target at longer ranges....Steve1

I fell in love with Remington 700's about 40 years ago. Yes, I'm a very old Fart who started hunting early. I now own several of these. All have free floated barrels, glass bedded actions, fine triggers, and taylored hand loads. Most have Leupold scopes. One of my favorites is in 270. It's flat shooting, extremely accurate, and doesn't kick too much. I can also get maximum veloscity out of a 22 inch barrel. I also have a custom 700 BDL, 300 Winchester with a Matte 3X9 Leupold on it. I really like it but I wonder if the 26 inch barrel isn't too long to be handy. It also kicks a little too much. A great elk gun for that big bull across the canyon, but I'd rather be packing one of my 270's. I have one featherweight Winchester 270 with a laminated stock. It didn't shoot too well until I put a small shim under the barrel near the foreend. It has a very light 22 inch barrel and is great for packing around all day. I've shot a lot of four shot half inch groups with it at a hundred yards. My wife usually shoots her deer and antelope with it every year. I think all these guns would shoot good out to 800 yards. I shot my antelope this year at around 400 yards this year with one shot. I rarely shoot further than that for fear of wounding something. But target shooting is a different matter. I'd like to try out a good rangefinder and do some experimenting with one of the new leupold scopes with the turret knobs. I think a guy could extend his effective range out quite a ways with a set up like that. Right now I estimate range with my duplex recticles set on 9 power. I've done quite a bit of shooting out to 500 yards testing my hand loads. For guesssing range I've figured out how much an 18 inch sized critter covers up in my recticle and can quickly and easily decipher how far it is out to 500 yards. A range finder would probably work better though. I sight in about 3 inches high at a hundred yards. If you were shooting out to 800 yards you would probably want to sight in higher than that. Just some food for thought.....Steve1

QuoteNo, but I did jump one of these a couple of times. Sparky....which one is you?

I'll bite. I'm new. What does the "Z" stand for? It's an old Spanish term....It originated with a man named Zorro in Mexico. He used his sword to carve it into people and things to let them know Zorrow had been there.....I think that's it!.....Steve1

Hell, I still go Z at times. Not a good thing!....Steve1

I was on a bigger load with Bullit Bob last summer organized by Beesely. When we got on the ground Beesely immediately started chewing me out for being in the wrong slot and messing up in other ways. I mean it wasn't a happy picture. When I explained it wasn't me, he finally figured out that it was that damn Bullit Bob. Bob has the same white jump suit and white Z-1. I had thoughts of getting a different colored outfit after that. Then we went up on another load. (Bullit Bob wasn't even on this load.) Russ Berree's son was making his first tandem and we were going to build an eight way around him. Hod Sanders was the tandem master. Things were building real nice. I was going to come in next to Hod. Then some other guy hit it real hard on the other side just as I was coming in. This caused things to drop slightly and turn at the same time. I ended up catching part of Hod's burble and glanced off his side. Then I came back in for a nicer entrance. When we watched the video, I looked awful. Russ, who was watching said, "Come on Bullit Bob". So I said, "What's wrong with that Damn Bullit Bob." Maybe I'll keep my colors after all. They might come in handy next time I screw up....Steve1

This picture shows an old Travel Air that we jumped out of in Missoula about 75. I doubt if any of these are still flying. They were once used by Johnson's Flying Service for dropping smoke jumpers.....Steve1

These were the hot canopy to own during the early 70's. B.J. had the nice checker pattern on the right. I really liked my Red Devil on the left. Most jumpers had long retainer lines to keep the sleeve and pilot chute away from the holes in the back of their canopy. If you notice in this picture my retainer line is way too short. Everything is resting on the back of my chute. I had two malfunctions because of this. I didn't figure this out till years later.....Steve1

Our college jump club (the Silvertip Skydivers) is supposed to be the oldest in the nation. It was in Missoula, now in Stevensville. While in Missoula we were able to rent smokejumper aircraft from Johnson's flying service. Whenever we had enough people gathered up all we had to do was give Johnson's a call and we had either a DC-3 or Twin Beech to jump from. Here's a picture of a Beech we rented taken in about 73. B.J. is second from right.

Most of these guys were more interested in skydiving than school. It took me almost 15 years to get my B.A. Mostly because I was broke. I assure you everyone in these formations were registered in college during that date. B.J. was one of the few skydivers I knew in those days who finished in four years. On graduation day he jumped into the ceremonies in his cap and gown at the U.of M.

Jack, I made some jumps at Sheridan in March of 74. I showed up and noticed that Ted had a new chief pilot. He looked like he was about 16 and everyone called him "Elevator". I couldn't help but wonder if he really did have a pilot's license. You could tell Ted really was proud of this ballsy kid who never seemed to quit talking. Anyhow two of the funnest jumps that I had made up to that point were on the 24th of March out of Ted's beech. It had a really big door, which worked great for exit. We landed on the Mackminville Airport. If I remember right you were on those loads. First we made a 10 way. The next load was and eleven way which we broke into a line, then a five and six round. (This was pretty hot stuff for that time period, and everyone was jacked). The last load, we tried a formation load with a 180. Someone funnelled it. I went back to Montana and bragged to everyone that I had just been to Oregon jumping with all the big boys. Does this match up with your log books? Sorry to hear about the loss of so many friends due to jumping. I quit for 25 years and only started up again about four years ago. So I'm still having lot's of fun at it.....Steve1

Jack, B.J. had a copy of this movie soon after we returned to Montana. He did show this movie a lot, like you say, but I don't remember your dock being bad. One night most of our club was down at the local bar showing this movie over and over again on the wall. Everybody was oohing and awing, on all the good parts. Apparently this pissed off some of the local "Wuffo's". When noone was looking, some "low life" stole the movie. My roommate at the time told me he knew who in Missoula stole it. Luckily I was able to get it back and return it to B.J. My entry into the star looked really cool for an 85 jump wonder. It looked cool from above (where Ray was), but in reality it was way too steep for a proper approach. From above it looked like a nice smooth entry. But what the heck, it all worked out , and looked good on film. I'd love to see that movie again. I'll check my old log book and see if I can find the dates I jumped with you in Oregon....Steve1

John was the only guy in our club (if I remember right) who had one-shot capewells. If you look close at his pig rig, I think you'll see no loops to pull under the covers. Do these look like one shots to you?? I'm relying on my memory here. The thought of one shots scared me! I always thought of piggyback systems as death rigs (back then). Actually I looked up to those who jumped them. Wardsy and Bill Blair were the only two that I recall jumping them, in our club......Steve1

This was back in the days when just a wet suit top was considered good enough for floatation gear. We jumped into Flathead Lake that day. It's one of the biggest fresh water lakes in the Northwest. One of the guys jumping that day (Tom Kaiser) wore swim fins and no floatation gear. He missed the whole lake. That must have hurt! I think that's why we drank so much beer back then. (To kill the pain after a hard day of jumping)....Steve1