steve1

.................................................................. I've had many heroes in life. Jack O'connor was one of them....

The more I learn about long range shooting, the more I realize I don't know much. Most hunters want to be able to reach way out there and bring down their quarry. Some, like myself, practice at targets, shooting off a bench rest, and then think I can do the same in the field. That is when things can turn to crap and I have a wounded animal. I hate it when that happens. A long shot in combat is probably okay. A wounded enemy soldier might be considered good. Let me give an example of what not to do hunting. I used to shoot targets a fair amount. I knew what my handloads would do. I had a good system for estimating range, or at least I thought I did. But as Lou's articles illustrate there are a whole lot of other factors to consider. Temperature, mirage, wind, humidity, and probably a bunch of other stuff I don't even know about. Anyway, there was a nice buck out in the middle of an alfalfa field a few years back. It was getting dark. Shooting hours would be over soon. It was either take a long shot or let it go. I should have waited..... But being the crack shot that I thought I was, I decided to give it a go. I figured the range to be about 450 yards. I had a bipod to steady my aim. Calculated everything out perfect. There was little wind.... A trained sniper could have made that shot easy. Hathcock could have done it blindfolded. These were the thoughts that were dancing in my head. When he stopped walking I touched one off. Something was off in my calculations. I missed the top of his back by about an inch. This put him into a walk. It looked like he had no intention of stopping, so I fired again. I led him a little because he was walking, and held a little lower. How much do you lead a walking animal at close to 500 yards? Believe me it's more than you think. The bullet caught him right square through both hind quarters. What a terrible shot! At that point I hated myself for even trying such a stunt. He got back on his feet and was heading at a fast walk for cover. So, then I commenced to empty my gun trying to finish off this poor wounded animal at long range. And I finally did kill it. What a mess! I always considered myself to be an ethical hunter. I always tried to kill an animal quickly and cleanly. At that point, I felt like a true "Slob Hunter". What a terrible thing to do! So, from then on I almost never shoot over 400 yards. A long shot may be tempting, but in most cases it's better to wait, and get closer....

This can be as simple as a small chart taped to the side of your stock. . I did that for a while. If a guy shot a lot of different rifles you'd most likely have to do that. Hathcock carried a small notebook for this in Vietnam. Maybe he should have taped what he needed to know to his stock. It certainly would have been simpler. Having a system that is too complicated may fail when you need it. I've come up with a system that works well out to 500 yards. I also have several rifles that have roughly the same trajectory. if you load the right bullet. They all have the same scopes too. I used to read a lot of Jack O'connor stories growing up. He used a lee Dot in the reticle of his scopes. This may be a crude method of doping, but he would use that to size up how big a critter was in reference to this dot. He'd then estimate range. I think you mentioned earlier that sometimes you use your front sight, to do the same thing, John. So, at any rate, I came up with the idea of using the distance of my fine reticle above the heavier one to measure things. I have duplex reticles in my scopes. I figured out how much an 18 inch taget will cover up at 300, 400, and 500 yards. I then practiced shooting at these ranges to find out exactly how much the bullet will drop at that range. It works really slick. I don't like to take a lot of long shots hunting because I don't like wounding game, but sometimes a long shot is needed. One time a friend shot a leg off of an antelope. I hate it when things like that happen. This antelope was getting away. It was a hair over 500 yards when it stopped. I knew my friend couldn't hit him. In a matter of seconds, I lay down, took a rest with my 270, estimated the range with the fine cross hair and touched one off. That antelope dropped in his tracks. That was a case where practice with long range shooting paid off.....

There's a whole lot to long distance shooting that I don't know. New technology is changing things too. In the Vietnam days many snipers used Remington 700's. Some of them had Redfield scopes with a rangefinder recticle inside. This was two lines above the reticle. This was developed for hunters. The average deer was about 18 inches from shoulder to belly. So you'd put a deer sized target between the two lines, then adjust your variable scope till it fit, and then you'd get a read out inside your scope telling you how far it was. This was adapted to Vietnam. Snipers would place a Vietcong or NVA soldier between the two ranging lines and adjust the scope until the lines were from shoulder to crotch. On a small person this was thought to be about 18 inches. I haven's seen any of these scopes on the market lately, so maybe this method has long since been outdated by something better. I'd like to be able to attend a sniper school. I'll bet there is a ton of things you could learn. I've never shot long distances enough to allow much for windage. On prairie dogs I have held above them and then a half a foot or so into the wind. It's fun being able to make a shot like that....

Holy Shit! You're right!....

Always a good idea to buy as much glass as you can afford. With that said, a scope that I was skeptical about at first but now am sold on are the Horus scopes ...................................................................... I'd like to learn more about long range shooting. I have a system now that works well for out to 500 yards. I know that it is possible to shoot further than that, if you have the right knowlege, equipment, and skill. I've thought about buying a better scope for this purpose. I'll keep these Horace scopes in mind. I'd like to get a scope with target turrets to adjust your point of aim at longer ranges. I know you would need notes to adjust the turrets. This would be too much to memorize. Is this old school sniper work? Is there a better way? I'm afraid my knowledge is limited here. Having a reticle with marks would help a lot....Maybe this would be simpler than adjusting the turrets. You could just use the correct mark for a given range. Maybe you wouldn't need notes if it was easier to remember. I'd like to learn more about all this.... I usually sight my rifles in at 3 inches high at a hundred yards. I've heard that snipers sight in much higher than that. I'd also like to buy a quality range finder. I've been holding off buying one. This can run into big bucks. I've heard the cheaper ones are very inaccurate at times. All this could extend your effective range....way out there.....

reply] But let's say you're in the field and you've whacked your scope on a tree and broken it, or it's developed a leak and it's fogged up inside. If you have only the scope to shoot with, your trip is done. reply] ...................................................................... That's a good point John. I've had a few different scopes go bad over the years. I also have iron sights on most all my hunting rifles, for back up. That reminds me of a story.... A friend of mine (Tom) was out hunting one day with a buddy of his. They split up for a while. Tom later spotted his friend hiking up a ridge toward him. Tom decided to play a joke. He hid behind a big tree. When his friend walked past Tom jumped out behind the guy, and let out a big roar. With that he kicked his pal in the rear. The hunter freaked out. He jumped about two feet in the air and litterally threw his gun. It landed on a rock, breaking the scope. The guy turned around to face what he thought was a bear. There Tom stood with a big grin on his face. But! This wasn't Tom's friend. It was some other hunter who had just seen a big set of bear tracks. I'm not sure how Tom talked his way out of that one. It sounds like a good way to get beat up.

.................................................................... I read Lou's articles. I do agree that a stiffer barrel is usually better for accuracy. That is one reason I'd like to get a fluted barrel. It would be stiffer without the weight of a bull barrel. I don't agree that cutting down barrel length is the thing to do in most cases though. There's no way you can cut a 300 magnum down in length and expect maximum velocity. There's no way you could expect magnum veloscity out of an 18 inch barrel. You can use a faster burning powder, but you are still talking about a much slower moving bullet. This means drop at longer ranges. A 308 might shoot ok, but rifles with larger powder capacity would not. This isn't just old school thinking. Every reloading manual that I've ever looked at shows bullet velocity with various powder charges. Barrel length is a huge factor in all of this. Bullet speed is checked with a chronograph. They don't lie. I bought my wife a model 7 Remington rifle. If I recall it has around an 18 inch barrel in 243. That rifle comes in a few different calibers. It doesn't come in 30/06, 270, or any magnum calibers. There is a reason for that. You would lose to much in velocity with that short of a barrel. I've tested it at longer ranges. A 243 should shoot almost as flat as a 270. Yet with that short barrel, (even with a fast burning powder), it drops a lot more than my 270 does with it's 22 inch barrel. BUT! Things are changing. I've heard that the military has a new powder that will change things dramatically. I've heard tell that this new powder will allow fast velocity with even the bigger cartridges in as little as 17 inches. So this will probably change the design of rifles in the future. I shoot a 26 inch barrel in my 300 magnum. There's a reason for that. It will deliver faster bullet speeds than even a 24 inch barrel. Maybe there is a powder out there now that will produce maximum velocity out of a shorter barrel. If there is tell me. As far as I know none is now commercially available. None of my reloading manuals show that either......

For years it was hard to find a quality hunting bullet in factory ammo. I've been reloading for about 45 years now. If you wanted Nosler Partition bullet, (a bullet that will penetrate deeply, even on heavy bone) you were out of luck, unless you reloaded. The selection was very limited if you bought factory ammo. Then things changed. Demand created a new market for better bullets. Recently it was possible to buy better factory ammo that had better bullets. Some sporting good stores handled this. That is up until the latest shortages. You are now lucky just to get the right caliber in factory ammo, let alone the right weight or fancy bullet. All the more reason to reload. If you look hard enough you can still find the components you need. Hopefully this shortage won't last. If it does, or if prices go through the roof, I'll have what I need....

377, I don't think I'm much different than you. I voted for Obama because I felt there are bigger issues on the plate than just gun control. I have friends who vote for whichever candidate support gun rights, on that issue alone. I've heard some scary things about Obama in terms of gun control. He says he's not out to take your guns away, but who knows what his agenda is really about. To tell you the truth, I don't fear him as much as I do the down turn in our economy. I'm not preaching that the end is near, or anything like that. But who knows what direction we are headed. The so called experts can't even figure that one out. My fear is that I may not have ammo to shoot at a reasonable price, in the future. As a reloader, all I have to do is store some bullets, primers, powder, and a little brass. No, I'm not stockpiling tons of the stuff.....

Thanks for the advice all! I think I'll check with Fred at Lost Prairie. He's a Master Rigger, and he can probably steer me onto a safe reserve. I'm leary about using an old reserve canopy. I had a stylemaster reserve container back in the 70's. It was a nightmare trying to get it closed up with a 24 ft. reserve inside. I mostly jumped a Super-Pro main container, back then. It too was a nightmare to get closed up with a para-commander. Really a tight set-up.... I was wondering what I need to do to get current again, as a senior rigger (to pack a chest mt.) I had a chest mt. rating back in the day. My knowledge is limited, but I have packed a lot of these reserves. They seemed simple enough to pack....

[reply Deer can be taken comfortably with anything down to a 308 or even a bit lower. Elk however, your talking about a much bigger gun. I know you said you weren't too hot about the mag's... but any of the Win mags are phenomenal (a bit of a snap when you pull the trigge but phenomenal). I agree with you on this. I am a firm believer in using enough gun. I own a 300 Winchester. My thinking was that this would be a great elk gun. It would have enough umph for a longer shot across a canyon. It would buck the wind well enough too. A 180 grain bullet would be heavy enough for penetration, yet flat shooting enough for a long shot. The only problem is that I don't like shooting it much. It kicks and makes a lot of noise. It's hard for me to squeeze one off like I should for accuracy. It also has a 26 inch barrel. I probably could have gotten by with a 24 inch barrel, but you can get quite a bit more velocity out of a 26 inch barrel in a 300 Winchester. To tell you the truth I don't like packing that long of a gun around. If I had it magna-ported it would help with recoil, but that would add still more to the barrel length. I don't like the idea of even more noise from a ported rifle either. So, if I go elk hunting I may just grab my old 30/06. It has a 22 inch barrel with less recoil and noise. But then again it won't shoot as flat as a 300. I've shot some elk with a 270. I love that cartridge, but it is puny for elk. I've never had any problems with penetration with it. I usually load Nosler Partitions in it, for elk. But I know that 300 would be a better elk gun. Maybe I just need to shoot it more....

People who own guns aren't stupid. If you can't get ammo a rifle or pistol is worthless. I don't think it's too far fetched to think that gun control advocates will go after ammo sales if they can't control the sale of weapons. This is more than hype or a conspiracy theory. Someone mentioned that ammo stored for a while might not be any good. I've fired ammo that was forty years old and it fired fine. If you keep it relatively moisture free and at a fairly constant temperature it should be fine. There was also mention that reloads aren't as good as factory ammo....The main reason I reload is that I can end up with ammo that is more accurate than factory ammo. My reloads are fine tuned to each rifle for superior accuracy. If you shoot an automatic pistol you have to be very careful on resizing. I like factory ammo better for that. And yes, you can save money on reloading. If you factor in you time, your savings may not be very great....Right now. But then again, who knows what a box of ammo may cost in the future. I can't believe the price of ammo right now. I don't see it going down any. That's another reason I'm stocking up.....

I've seen this sort of stock-pilling before. When Bill Clinton first took over as president, many people thought that he would severely restrict ammo sales. Many were worried that you might not be able to get the ammo you needed. So, I stocked up. I didn't really need to though, because little changed. With Obama taking office there is renewed fear that just that will happen. There is also a fear that with our spiralling economy, that bad times are ahead. If it's dog eat dog, many people may want a weapon handy. I don't know what the future holds, but to tell you the truth it doesn't look rosy to me. It might make sense to stock up. It's getting hard to do that though. I had to look all over to find the bullets and powder I wanted this last weekend. None of it was cheap. I truly hope the economy does shape up. I also hope that Obama has common sense when it comes to gun control.....

I love Remington 700 rifles. I bought a BDL model back when I was a teenager (whew that was a long time ago). in 30/06. Shot everything from gophers to moose with it. I glass bedded the action, floated the barrel, worked on the trigger, put a 3X9 leupold on it. It will drive tacks with the right reload. I have another in the Remington classic model, in 270. Another in 300 magnum (out of their custom shop). They are all extremely accurate after fine tuning them. I'm not sure why I need another rifle. My daughter is thinking about getting a 270 for elk. So, I might give her one of my old rifles, while a get a new one for myself. I was looking at a dandy Remington the other day. It had a fluted stainless barrel. I think it also came standard with a timney trigger. I've heard the Army may be going to a Winchester for their sniper rifle. A guy in a rifle shop gave me this info. He said the Marines were still using mostly Remingto 700's for that. I've owned a few different Winchester rifles over the years. One of them (a feather-light) didn't shoot well until I put a shim under the fore-end. It had a skinny whip like barrel. It now groups five shots under 3/4 of an inch at a hundred yards. So, I really like that rifle. The other two didn't shoot too well, so I got rid of them. So, I'm wondering about the new Winchester rifles. I heard they are much better made than some of their earlier models. The pre-64 Winchesters are really great rifles. I wouldn't mind owning one of them, but they may be out of my price range.........

I'm kicking around the idea of buying a chest mt. reserve. I have a para-commander in an old Style-master back pack. Which reserve would you recommend? Any ideas where I might pick one up? I was also wondering what a person might have to pay for a safe set up. Back in the 70's a 26' conical was a good reserve to own. I had a couple rides on two different 24 foot, flat reserves. I sure don't want to try that again....

I saw a Ruger recently, and it really caught my eye. I do like the claw extractor on the bolt. The built in bases, and free scope rings are also a plus. Their stainless rifle with the laminated stock is beautiful! The only thing that is keeping me from buying one is the question of accuracy. I've heard they usually don't shoot as well as Remington, Savage, or Winchester. I don't know that for sure though. I've never owned a Ruger. I really do like the looks of them....

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I'm thinking about buying another hunting rifle. It's scary how much they cost these days, but more guns are something you need!.....Right?? These are some things I'm looking for: 1. Accuracy. 2. Not too long or too heavy. 3, Probably a Remington or Winchester. Bolt action. 4. Price is a consideration. I don't want a custom rifle. 5. I didn't want to spend much over $900 on the rifle without a scope. 6. I like laminated stocks, some synthetic stocks, stainless steel barrels and actions. 7. I like fluted barrels, but don't want to go with a heavy barrel. (a 24 inch barrel would be the maximum length) 8. I'm not crazy about magnums, but might consider one. 9. This would be an all around deer and elk gun. Yes, I am a picky bastard.... Any suggestions??

Oh shit! Does that mean everyone in Western Montana is about to die??? On a more serious note, Yellowstone is a wonderful place, if you enjoy nature. You might want to take a fishing pole. We caught some really nice trout in a lake just south of Yellowstone Lake. We also had a canoe. There are a lot of restrictions. You might want to leave your dog at home. We had an older dog and a pup in our canoe. Luckily we didn't tip over. My daughter worked in a bank at Teton Village, for a couple years. The scenary north of there is nothing short of amazing. That would be the place to go if you want beautiful mountains. Bring your rig too. You can skydive in Montana, at Hamilton, Ronan, and Lost Prairie....

I bought my wife a model 7 Remington about thirty years ago in 243. Later my daughters used it. I'm not sure how many deer and antelope that gun shot, but it was a bunch. 7MM/08 is a great cartridge. Too bad you have to sell it. These are really hard times for a lot of folks.

It isn't just Catholics that do this sort of thing. A buddy of mine was Morman. He was excommunicated when he was a teenager. (Maybe this shows the type of kids I ran around with.) Another friend of mine was pretty high up in the Morman Church. He said he was one of the good old boys who ex-communicated a guy for cheating on his wife. At any rate, I think there is plenty of B.S. in the other faiths also. Did I mention I was raised as a Catholic before I became an Athiest. I even went to a private Catholic school for a time....

I haven't watched this. I wonder though what point of this was. In many sports such as body building and power lifting, steroids are usually not carefully administered under a doctors care. Often times they are bought illegally. If a little isn't producing results, more is thought to be better. Some of these guys will do anything for any gain in size or strength. The side effects can be disasterous. I'm not so sure this is hype or hysteria. I'd like to hear others opinions....

.................................................................. I went through Infantry training prior to jump school. I remember many forced marches at Ft. Polk. This involved walking as fast as you could. The plan was to get a company of soldiers from point A to point B, as fast as possible. Usually you had a pack on your back. This wasn't so bad if you had long legs. If you had shorter ones, like I did, it was really tough to keep up. It felt good to break into a run, but then you'd have a Drill Instructor jump all over you for running, so you'd go back to fast walking. I never did know what being a "Leg" meant for sure. The term has been around a long time....

Pardon my rambling here, but I always thought it would be cool to jump with the great Jerry Bird. In about 74 two team mates of his came through Missoula and wanted to jump with us. I can't recall their names, but they were on Jerry Birds All Stars. So we gathered up all the local yocals who had more than a couple hundred jumps. B.J. Worth was one of them. I think he had around 500 then. Then we ordered up a D.C.-3 from the Smoke Jump Center. These two guys, from California, were like Gods to us. There was dead silence when they organized our load. This was serious shit! These guys weren't as cool as Jerry Bird....but almost! To make a long story short we built a new state record star that day, for Montana. It had a whopping 15 people in it. My how things have changed since then. At any rate, I quit jumping for about 25 years after that. Whenever I'd run into a jumper who still jumped I'd ask about Jerry Bird. Usually they'd say, "Yep he's still on top, He's still the king." Then they'd say, "have you heard about old B.J. He did this famous thing, and that famous thing, and he's doing stunt work in James Bond Movies, and the list goes on and on. So, maybe I never did know Jerry Bird, but I did jump with B.J. back in the day.