teason

oops, you're right, I implied otherwise. I've seen riggers just slam them together in a half hour. It was unfair of me to assume that's what you do and you that you don't give due dilegence. sorry I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

With all the talk about the wizened elders learning through their mistakes, what good stories are out there? Here's mine. I think the dumbest thing I did was doing a Mr. Bill with my buddy Warren. We got this crazy Idea that it would be cool to repel of someone under a parchute. On the first attempt we used 20 feet of 5/8 nylon rope with not tied every foot or so. The opening was a typical Mr. Bill opening; the exit was good, the Man O' War opened nice, the riser slapped me square in the face. Dazed, I began to climb down the rope which was blowing straight backwards not straight down like I'd figured. And I as the nylon rop burned through my leather batting gloves, I paused long enough to realize that we obviously needed a thicker rope. DUH. Battered, bruised and with a fat lip we tried again. This time we had a big thick rope, doubled on itself a couple of times and when I slide down after losing my grip I remembered we also had a Wooden 2x4 at the bottom. At least I made it, watching Warren to spiral 20 feet above me, or at least I have a vague recollection of that. I hung on till 4000' cause I had taken another riser blow to the face and was somewhat rattled. The rope came in handy that weekend when late one night, after much libations we thought it would be cool to attach it to my harness and fly me and my Sabre 170 like a kite in 30+ knot winds. God we were Dumb. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Gimli MB has probably the largest Pea pit in the world.....150 feet wide! It ain't there! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Good point. With square reserves, it demands a higher level of awareness in a two situation. Learn correct procedures on the first day. Have you had to change any other aspects of the course to minimize student overload? (other than round procedures that is) That was the strongest argument for TAS as opposed to SOS. The counter argument went something like "Why have a system that is less safe on a 100% of the students (SOS is simpler to teach) just to make it safer for the .05% who might get gear. A first jumper is more likely to pull the wrong handle than someone with an A lisence" (We have TAS with fly away loops I'm just criticizing the argument not the position

We have 12000s too and it is rare but it can happen according to FXC and what I've seen. I agree with you on the durability, I knew a rigger who claimed he hammered a nail into a 2x4 with the unit to prove a point (maybe BS though, seems like a dumb way to prove a point) I hope you take longer than that, ya gotta inspect it. Students walk on those things and drag them around! Also, changable field cutters are available from cypres but I agree setting a 12000 is easier and more convenient. Opinion is wildly in favor of squares, no doubt, but I'm looking for something more than "we all like 'em" Many years ago, someone I respect a great deal told me "Answers mean nothing because they can change, It's the questions that matter" This debate shows that the original question is flawed. There are to many other questions; Training, topography, AAD choice. If you ask me which is better, I'll tell you a square is. If you ask me which is safer for students at a DZ, with a given the training method, the landing area and the AADs, the answer will probably change from DZ to DZ. That's why I'm curious about changes DZs have made to training if they have squares (see original post) I can't change the topography, but Training and gear.... I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

HO - LEE - CRAP! Having been a vet of doing lot's of stupid shit, when I look back after seeing that vid.... pheeww. I've done a few Mr.Bills, some have involved ropes that I climbed down. (don't ask) And most involved me being injured in some way(two riser slaps to the face and blood dribbling over the goggles in freefall...etc). Advice: 1. Get more jumps 2. Turn on your AAD 3. Get advice from someone who has done it from that particular aircraft (the vid showed a backwards exit) 4. Don't do, it's a bad idea I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

WOW You are my god! How about you Icon and I all go drinking! We could debate the merrits of type XIII vs. type VII and the geometric porosity considerations of overloaded reserve canopies! (ooh I love those big words!) Oh the people we could bore! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

FXC 12000, while being more reliable than a sentinal, can fire upto within 1500' of the set altitude (it's printed right on the side). That means a smaller margin for error with getting a main out than with a Cypres. By the way, if you do the math, a new cypres will cost you about $1625 or $135.42 per year over 12yrs. A new FXC 12000 would be $1490 or about $124.17 per year over 12yrs(both are based on the min. maintenance) The math seams simple if you're getting new gear. Just something to think about if you're choosing new gear

Accepted AND appreciated Thanks

I think if you're jumping your reserve enough break your slider stops, you should probably re-evaluate your main packing techniques! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

I have no problem with the decision I made when I originally got the gear. I only brought it up to show that cost wasn't the issue in my choice as your previous post had suggested It was only the cheap comment, I didn't think it was a good road to go down or a fair statement to make, although I sure there are DZOs who wish they had the money to change over. It may seem strange but I put up the post to listen to the "Grumpy grey beards". The sport is constantly advancing in the realms of equipment and training. If we don't constantly challenge our own thoughts and ideas, we'll wind up like Llyod K. dropping students on gear that should have been retired decades ago. I'm not here to say "I like round reserves and I'm going to spew dogma 'til you agree with me!" What I am saying is I use rounds because of my experience with them and I think it's time to get other peoples' opinions and perspectives. All I ask for is cogent arguments. If they are good arguments, then I say so but if I think there are holes in them, I'll point that out too. I've seen some good points made so far and you have put across your strong belief in square reserves, that in itself is a strong case given your experience. My attitude is about broadening my perspective and questioning my own approach to training.It's about listening to others and while I may challenge what is said I will not disregard it! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Remember, there are only 4 points of attachment! And that ain't a pack of certs! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Na, I'm just a rigging geek! At parties people generally start moving away from me when I start talking about the different types of string!

Ah crap, now we're talking about cars! How about this, "The maintenance cycle on my car didn't factor into the purchase" just trying to keep us on track. I know F*** all about cars I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

ahhh the gibson... I've got a Les Paul Deluxe circa 71-74. Bought if $350 CDN! It's good to have a Dad who been in bands since the late 50s, he knows a lottta folks! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

um excuse me but wasn't the original point that if left to the manufacturers, some would recommend longer cycles as a selling point? How did we swerve so far off topic. By the way, the argument for: AAD manufacturers seem to be trying it. The argument against, Car manufacturers don't recommend longer mantenance cycle for oil and such. Now...... Discuss! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

What a coincidence, so has jumping out of a plane I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

The answer is *DING * DING * DING*.... Joint efficiency. Using two threads with disimilar properties can adversly effect joint efficiency as the previous posts have suggested. FYI it's not just ant nylon thread, it's ticket#69 bonded "E" thread. Nylon thread is made up of many strands of nylon. By heating the nylon thread, the fibers stick together to form a single strand. Ripstop undergoes a something similar called calandering (spelling someone?). The fabric is put through 2 hot rollers and the nylon fibers are mushed together reducing the porosity, That's why it's bad to get F-111 wet. It reverses the calandering process and increases porosity. I think it also unbonds "E" thread. whenever I see thread fraying I suspect water damage. I could tell you more but I left my Poynter manuals at the DZ. Maybe that's a good thing I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

That's my experience too, no injuries except for the guy with the damaged reserve and that was just a sprain, he jumped the following weekend. If a student malfuction starts in their brain, dumbing down the demands of canopy control may be a good thing. Just makesure they have good spotting! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Now THAT is a strong arguement! The Hazards around your DZ pose a threat that make round reserves a poor choice. I know a DZ that does west jumpruns with students over a crap load of obstacles. If they had an AAD fire on a long climb out ... THEY should have squares based on there attitude toward spotting. We don't have that issue to the same degree and on the rare occasion that we do, we quadrant spot accordingly. It is still a consideration though, thanks. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

The Zerox is a Vector clone, or at least it was origionally. I guess that's why it's called a zerox. Thomas Sports did a bit of cloning in the early days, for example the forrunner of the Teardrop was the Chaser. Sound like another set of gear? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

I'm gonna pity the fool! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

I think the analogy is fair considering a DZ is like a family. We can all remember be teens and thinking we knew it all. We all remember doing dumb shit. We all now hear ourselves sounding like our parents. In skydiving the progression is identical. Give it few years, you'll start sounding like an uptight jumper too. I just telling someone the other day that when I started jumping, we had to walk 5 miles to the DZ, in the snow, uphill and jumps only cost a nickel! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Don't teenagers go through a similar phase of questioning authority? I do agree that in skydiving a lot of people have strong opinions based on a foundation of quicksand and get irate when you question them. And many cannot present a cogent argument (If I hear one more nonrigger dumbass tell me my Racer sucks...I'm gonna lose it!) but what your describing is a classic over correction of blindly adhering to whatever someone who has more jumps than you says. Sure You may be experienced enough to sniff out the bullshit but what makes you think you can find the truth on your own. That you're ready to throw a wall between you and all those who have gone before? Certainly question the BS (that is how you learn)but don't think for a second you can find all the answers on your own. And for gods sake don't pick and choose the answers that only prove your opinion, listen to those who oppose you. THEY are the only ones worth listening to. That's also why I enjoyed your last post And remember; The only thing that separates Holy writ from complete Bullshit is YOUR perspective. - my appologies to Dennis Miller for stealing his material I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

That's fair. And your being straight and honest with them. I guess my beef is those who charge more, do a bad or even dangerous job and them blame to rig itself. They aren't being straight with their customers. "Racer riggers" often seen bad Racer pack jobs from riggers who charge more and blame the gear. That's the thing that burns our biscuits! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.