pirana

That's a very good movie. As for the new one with the same name, haven't seen it yet, but hust ordered it from the DVD club. Now I'm very eager to see it. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I hear you there. When at college I tried the school commons. The meal plan was very cheap and all you could eat. Not worth it. So I went back to cooking, and ate spaghetti about half my meals. I'd get the huge 5# box of noodles, and make up a huge pot of red sauce the way mom taught me (with lots of sausage & garlic). Got my roommates in on it and they would often pay for half the makins. It got a little boring at times (sorry mom), but we ate very well and very cheap. My guess is that it was about $1 per meal. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

but, but, DON. If it just saves ONE INNOCENT LIFE. I'm converted, we should eliminate all cars immediately. other side - BUT, convenient transportation is so much more important than heinous crime. Edit: Actually, it's a great point and highlights that there is a level of tradeoff between accuracy and societal needs - even in terms of life or death. I'm 100% convinced of that. Whether we want to accept it or not is another issue. You've revealed my secret identity! Curses, to the Barn, . . . I mean Batcave. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

sometime before ending up in either Cleveland or Columbus Scared me for a minute there. Thought you were going to say the MN/WI border - in which case my home and our DZ would be in the hands of an Indian Tribe. All those flashing lights, busloads of gamblers from the outer ring suburbs, and washed up rock acts would put me over the edge. But then again, think of all the tandem traffic to support the Otter. I can see the headline now: "Rock Star Rod Stewart, 72, Makes Tandem Skydive Into Casino Rock Concert." In a related story, 783 octogenarians were admitted to the Baldwin Area Hospital with mild to severe injuries when the plane performing the lift to altitude was seen to "buzz" the crowd at an altitude of only 3 feet. The pilot, on learning of the injuries, was heard to mutter "Oh shit, I forgot they can't crouch." " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

We can fix that (the fact that it costs more to execute them than to kill them). As someone else said, it's ridiculous to see superfluous appeals when the guilt is established beyond all doubt. It appears with our current DNA testing technology, we are nearly to the point, or maybe already there with a few new rules, where mistakes will be so rare as to be within acceptable limits. I know that sounds cold at first, but think about it - would we stop building cars forever knowing that someday, somewhere, a car is going to be built that will result in a death because of poor workmanship or design? Absolutely not (Pintos, Gremlins, and Vegas aside). " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I think the problem is that we have a sinificant number of our population that have become career criminals. It's tough to dispense the appropriate sentence with current guidelines and expectations. You've got the person with no record, a high likelihood of remorse, and very little chance of repeating. They got caught up in the passion or anger of the moment and acted outside of character. Then you have the career criminal for who jail is just a bit of downtime and who has every intention of repeating their crime. We need to get very serious about repeat offenders. Not just something like they get 3 years instead of 1. Especially for repeaters of violent crimes, or any crime directly threatening people (as opposed to property). I do not think current sentencing practices is a deterrent for career criminals. (Well, I guess that is a given or they would not repeat). " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I think the most interesting part of the book is the pointing out that what has happened to the food indusrty is happening, or has happened, in most businesses. It's the market at work. It's kind of a race to the bottom with the casualties along the way getting very little attention. As the saying goes, especially in a mostly capitalistic society, money talks and bullshit walks. Are consumers in on all the dirty little secrets behind this or most other indutries? For the most part no. Would they be willing to pay the premium for higher quality and more socially responsible behavior if they were? Hard to say, and I think the real issue this book raises. Witness that a number of people here have read it, and continue to at least occassionally consume the product. I abhor some of their business practices, but I do buy from McD's or Wal-Mart once in a while. Sometimes the convenience and the need make it impractical to go elsewhere for utilitariian goods. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

The Melting Pot is a myth. Unless you allow for the fact that it takes several generations for immigrants to acclimate, as well as to be allowed to be seen as equals by the majority of the population. Each wave of immigrants sets up a country within a country. Nothing wrong with that; a totally expected phenomena considering the usual behaviors of Those Darn Humans. Witness Greektown, Little Italy, Little Havana, Germantown, and on and on. Every major city has these places, which is why they are relatively sparse in the midlle of the country compared to the coasts. But Middle America (my stomping grounds) has it's own form of racism. It's quieter and more subtle, but is as deeply engrained as elsewhere. The Melting Pot is one of those nice safe primary school models that gets totally destroyed when you study cultural interactions as a serious topic. This is not a knock on any individual or how we would like things to be - it is how groups of people from different cultures interact when thrown together. The 3 first-level determinants of culture are race, religion, and language; so it is no surprise that the primary divide between groups is race - and it is why racism dies so hard. A very good look at how we construct cultural identity, as well as all other value laden perspectives, is a 3-part series by a guy named Morris Masey. Can't remember the main title, but the 1st segment is titled "What you are is where you were when . . ." Bottom line is that all cultures have race as an identifying factor, it is at their core. How people deal with it is a matter of the values they accumulated, mostly at a very young age. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

It's British territoty isn't it? Enough said. Every place on Earth used to belong to somebody else. Where would you stop? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Actually, I think justice and prevention are 2 distinct things. Justice comes in the form of a judgement in reaction to someone misbehaving. I understand the intended value of punishment as a preventitive measure; but don't think it works for most of the criminal elements in our society. To them the crime is worth the time - getting caught and doing time is just part of the game for them. The only prevention in punishment is that of it being a stall tactic. I see restitution as completely different than punishment. A criminal deserves to be punished for breaking the law; but they also need to be made to make the victim whole again if at all possible. They owe time for their crime, and they owe me $25K, plus interest. Sure I'm still a victim; but I'd rather be a victim with my $25K back in my pocket than without. Paying me back doesn't erase the crime. I'm definitely OK with revenge; and yes, if a member of my family or someone I loved were killed; I'm pretty sure I'd pull the trigger or throw the switch or whatever. I can't say for certain, since I've yet to have that opportunity presented, but I think I would do it. I'm not a nasty vindictive person (but then you know that), and I'm not trying to drag you into semantics - I just really don't see the current system working to prevent anything. Most crimes are by repeat offenders, whose sentence just creates a little career downtime. The sentence needs to be painful enough to truly be a deterrent; only then does punishment become preventive. Here's another way of looking at it. How many people think our burgeoning prison population is because: 1 - Sentencing is not a deterrent 2 - The percentage of evil humans is on the rise 3 - Law enforcement has gotten that good at catching more criminals It's been a while since I've seen the numbers (I'll look them up again later), but it would be good to fully understand why the percentage of our population in jails keeps going up. And you gotta keep asking WHY to every answer you come up with until you get to a fundamental cause(s); i.e. - Because there are more criminals. WHY? Because people feel the need to steal. WHY? Because . . . Approach it as an equation to solve. Apologies for straying. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

That's the problem with using %ages at times. So what if the poorer person is paying a higher percent. The richer person is putting 6 TIMES the money into the public coffers. More than fair. You put dollars in the bank - not percentages. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Isn't that kind of self-centered, Walt? Someone paid for you to go to school. We pay for the education of all children--our own and others--because they are the future. I only had one child. I don't resent helping pay for those who have two or more. That said, I'm not sure I agree with the voucher system. It seems to me that the money is better spent improving the system we have. rl Well said, and just the tip of the iceberg. How about if I decide to withhold the portion of my tax dollars that go toward fire protection and opt out of that particular system? Same with library funding, wildlife preservation, regulation of airspace, etc. You don't get to cherry pick on most taxes or the public services they provide. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

then my point #2 applies for "that" individual. I put in point #1 because it is the knee jerk response quite often. And then the refutation isn't against the original speaker, it's just a minimization of all things American. This thread is much more reasonable than the normal stuff. Kudos to the first poster for setting up without the confrontational/defensive mood. I like caramel better than jelly beans. And black licorice I agree. Its good to see that many people with the view that while America DID help, we were only a piece of the total puzzle. Without all the pieces, it probably would have turned out differently. I hate black licorice. BLEH. But carmel jelly beans are delicious. Not enough time to read the whole thread, but 2 things: 1 - Rehmwa's got it right about the team effort. Without any one of the major players, the war would have been much longer, and quite possibly lost. 2 - How about those caramel apple jelly beans! Yummy. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

So what exactly is the purpose of a sentence of life without parole. If the intention is truly to lock someone up until they die - why not just execute them. This is of course under the assumption that you had to have done something pretty nasty to get truly sentenced to life in prison until you die. For the record, I am a staunch supporter of the death penalty. I think the burden of proof needs to be different than for any other sentence, but once that burden is met - off with their heads; none of this monkey-farting around with 20 years of appeals for someone convicted on rock-solid evidence. The person's health, age, state of repentance, etc should have nothing to do with it. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

So do you really think that restitution isn't part of justice? If someone rips me off, I would consider them paying their debt to me just as important to the cause of justice as their being penalized by time in jail or removal of priveleges. I mean, if all they got was a sentence, then punishment is given but I'm left out in the cold for whatever was taken. The more I think about it, sentencing is punishment, restitution is justice. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

The judge is one of the 2: 1 - If he did not read it, he is an overworked bureaucrat rubber-stamping things without paying any attention. Still his fault though; he choose to be a judge and owns full responsibility for his actions, regardless of how much "the system" begs for the blaming. If this is the case, there is the added insult of now seeing judges play the victim card. 2 - If he read it, he is an absolute moron for granting the TRO. Either way, the irony is that the lady with the demons in her head is the one to watch. This is the kind of mental illness that leads to things like the murder of John Lennon. It's just so incredibly inane that SHE got the TRO. My only other point would be to ask what lawyer did this for her (assumming it did require a lawyer to handle). How low does the bar go? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Great Pumpkin weighing in here. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Yep. Everybody wants to be special, just like everybody else. Or, put another way: When everybody is somebody, Nobody is anybody. The next stage is war. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Another voice who rants on the same topics, though with a much less "utopian" slant is Noam Chomsky. He manages to critique behaviors without labeling people. His style is more of seeking to understand, especially in a historical context, rather than just putting people down. His book, Power and Terror, is a great read. Another great writer of a similar vein, with a unique way of liikong to the future - Freeman Dyson. There'a a very good site you can check out called (I think) Freeman Dysons Brain. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

The fact that you called this a rule of the church points out a certain absurdity of any authority thinking they have jurisdiction to pass this judgement. If it's a rule, can we get it changed with a 2/3 majority? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I would if it were personal. But killing someone I had no connection with at all would not appeal to me. Let the people who were wronged do so if they want. Otherwise, leave the job to professionals. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

It does exist. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I think they are also fairly well united in believing Creationism should be taught alongside and on equal ground as Evolution. Funny thing; I was flipping thru this real cool kids science book I got for my daughter - How Life Works. I checked out the chapters on Genetics and Evolution. In amazingly clear pictures and paragraphs the book walks thru the processes and provides the reader with an easy to digest version of the science of heredity and the overwhelming evidence for Evolution. Better than just about anything else I've ever read on the topics. Maybe that's part of the problem with how science educates the public about findings - they need to KISS. (And add lots of pictures). " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Oh, that's good, very good. I would chime in that the US has behaved the same way as every other major power once we ascended to the throne. Historically, it does not seem to matter what particular individual was holding the reins. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it does indicate that it isn't just Bush, and may not be him at all. It appears the problem is endemic throughout society. Also, it does beg a whole boatload of other questions. 1st for me is: What the heck is wrong with the human species that we can not coexist without constant major conflict? Maybe it is the nature of the beast, kind of a Darwinian approach. Don't have the answers (working on it) but an objective look at recorded history indicates no state has figured it out yet. We should keep trying, but I believe our turn will be over soon. No way enough of the world will ever trust us to give us a fighting chance at establishing a sucessful (peaceful) world order. A good guessing game would be: Who gets to try next. OK, try: Canada, New Zealand, Australia, or Singapore. All former colonies, all prosperous, none of them bent on world domination. They are not capable, and therefore do not meet my criteria. My point is that every nation that has ascended to the throne of world dominance behaves badly. None of those countries are anything close to being a dominant world power. My hypothesis is that if they were to ascend, they'd do the same. It could be, that they would do things differently than all those that have come before them, but my personal opinion is that it is engrained in the species to be greedy and glutonous - remnants of ealier and harsher times. Time will tell. I'll bet you that 2,000 years from now people will be having the same debate: Why can't we stop fighting. EDIT: I think I misunderstood your post Kelland. It looks to me now like you meant they might be next. I thought you were saying they would not behave greedily. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

What's your criteria for miracle? Anything you can't explain. Is every cancer patient that was thought to be saveable and then dies a failed miracle. Some cancer patients who were thought not to be saveable survive. Most don't. It's not a miracle just because you, or all, do not understand it. It's just a matter of odds. There was a time when the human species did not understand plagues, the recession of plagues, solar eclipses, and so on and so forth. With additional knowledge gained through the scientific method, we figure stuff out. Nothing miraculous about it. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley