pirana

Does that include the right to be gang-raped under the auspices and good graces of the religious elders? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Oh, that's very good. Now I can get to work with a smile.. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Only if you are the one wearing it. I haven't had my morning laugh yet. I like the idea though. Maybe we could do a study to check for coorelation between a cultures recognition and granting of basic human rights (and which rights are granted) and the percentage of skin covered by bathing suits. We'd have to include some sort of factor to account for the total amount of skin available to be shown. I believe there has been an increase in the last couple decades. Such is the hazard of living in a land of plenty. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

No; but you trying to justify or rationalize the treatment of women in places where they are treated as possessions would be like me trying to justify the legalization of child molestation by priests. If we lived by rules that made it OK for priests to molest kids to satisfy a debt, then we would be on the same ground as the hard core fundie Islamists and their giving permission to to take reparations by commiting rape.* *Even typing that is repugnant. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Again you’re using a limited minority to describe a majority. That’s like using an American cult to describe America. Do horrible things happen in the world yes they do they happen everywhere. Are all Christians child molesters? No but there is a lot of examples of Christian men of god who have committed what I believe we can agree is one of the worst crimes that can be committed. Not to mention the man some are trying to make a saint knew about it and did nothing. The point is shit happens every it would wrong to take a few examples and make a blanket judgment. No, the point is they have a religiously dominated culture (in places) that not only allows it, but officially condones it. Here it is ALWAYS a crime to commit rape. Whether or not prosection is successful, that is a separate issue. There it is acceptable in certain circumstances. It is insidious to compare the two, and very tough to swallow as a harmless cultural difference. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Fixed it for you. Imagine having your local priest decide that your family had wronged some other family. As reparation, he decides that all the men of the other family get to come over and gang rape your daughter or little sister. Is that really a culture you can get behind and defend as being no worse than ours? Are you referring to faith or culture? I already agreed that some cultures need to get their shit together. OK then, I agree. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I think he had it covered in just mentioning guns, politics, and religion. Maybe the only thing missing was: "But think of the children." Where's rehmwa when you need him? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Yeah, the thermodynamics arguments really are a special case in these kinds of debates. Now, when it comes to evolution and genetics the creationists can usually dissemble enough and be vague and misguided enough that it is sometimes tricky to really pin them to the wall on their mistakes. The "2nd law" argument, on the other hand, is so blatantly, completely, provably, unmistakably wrong that I am still waiting for Nigel99 to come back and apologise for breaking physics. Yeah, well, the complexity argument is bogus, the information coding argument is bogus, the micro/macro argument is bogus. Pretty much every argument they use is designed to appeal to the ignorant. I think uninformed is a better term. For those of us that try to keep up with such things at least on a layman's level (yes, it just might be an officially classifiable ICD category), the flaws are often obvious. For a person that has not studied, or at least read up a bit, the slick tactics and fast talking of a fire and brimstone psuedo scientific huckster probably comes off as pretty interesting, cool, and plausible stuff. They are often very charming and credible people if you do not actually pay attention to what they are saying - or are not intimate with the subject matter. This is where my biggest beef is. They prey on people, even though I am sure (IMO) almost all of them know what they are peddling is a sham. That ought to be a crime. At least in civil cases , they are being held in check for now. They ought to go to jail. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Well, if he succeeds in breaking the laws of physics, then we could all be in really big trouble. I mean, imagine if he accidentally ripped open the fabric of space and time in a way big enough to transport the entire planet Earth instantaneously to the milleseconds just following the Big Whoosh. Of course we all know that only the combined efforts of Spock and Scotty could make such a thing so; but if Nigel did manage to do that - I would expect an apology. BTW, I didn't catch the poster, but those 3 rules for thermodynamics - very funnt stuff. I've found that the same thing aplies if you sit at a Blackjack table for too long. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Waiting..... Waiting..... Waiting..... I don't know about anyone else but I am really looking forward to finding out which 'Journal' published this groundbreaking piece of research. Please hurry up and find it

Fixed it for you. The things you described are committed by people of all faiths (and even people with no faith). Don't believe me, take a look at the poorest of poor areas in the United States of America where people are routinely murdered, raped, etc... I do believe you; but I'm talking systemic and institutionalized abuse. It's not even a close comparison. Rape here is a crime no matter who does it to who. In areas where fundamentalist Islamic clerics hold sway; there are actually traditional rules that grant people the right to commit gang rape against teenage girls. (There were a couple very well publicized recent incidents out of Pakistan, IIRC). My point has to do with legally protected freedoms that balance with laws passed by majority rule and representative governance. If your counter to that is the incredibly sophisticated it-happens-everywhere retort, then you are not reading and/or not understanding. Are you saying that when you compare governance, representation, liberties, human rights, and any similar topics between the 2 countries, you come to the conclusion that neither is better than the other? Imagine having your local priest decide that your family had wronged some other family. As reparation, he decides that all the men of the other family get to come over and gang rape your daughter or little sister. Is that really a culture you can get behind and defend as being no worse than ours? p.s. - Fixed what? I didn't see that it was broken. You may disagree, but I'd rather hear the meat behind your opinion; not just a scratching out of a couple words in somebody else's post. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

So if the majority of a culture agrees upon something then it is acceptable to impose their belief on the minority. So when the majority of a culture agrees to commit genocide against the minority ... you believe it is acceptable? An excellent distinction; between majority rule and minority rights. Democracy means nothing without liberty. Iran has neither. In a democracy laws are made via representation chosen by the population. If the democracy is founded on a constitution of freedoms, those laws must pass the test of not violating people's liberties. Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep deciding to have sheep for dinner. Libery is the sheep showing up for dinner, . . . armed to the teeth and ready to defend itself. Bottom line is that I am torn on the issue. I try to understand that cultures need to be allowed to mature at their own pace. It is after all only 140 years since we had legal slavery, less than a century since women got the vote, and only 60 years ago we locked up people of Japanese descent out of cultural ignorance. But it is tough to read stories of people prohibited from going to school or riding bikes, of women allowed by local elders to be gang raped because they disgraced their family, of innocent civilians being killed daily for no other reason than as a scare tactic. Islam needs to get it's shit together - resolve it's internal disputes, and at least officially make some sort of earnest attempt to stop exporting it's brand of oppression and hatred to the rest of the world. And those incredibly weak comparisons between oppression in the US and other western countries versus the oppression in the religiously ruled Islamic states do nothing for the credibility of those that defend Islam. Here, if we disagree on religion, we go to internet forums and rag on each other a bit. There, you're likely to get your head sawn off. In my eyes we have two options: 1 - Continue the current occupation, in which case we just continue to give fuel to their claims of imperial abuse, their recruitment efforts, and their continued atrocious behavior. 2 - Get the hell out of their world and give them a few decades to get their shit together and maybe mature as a society. (And by that I mean the granting of freedoms and liberties by some sort of representative governance). Option 2 would have to come with the caveat that if they threaten our liberties (such as our right to live) by continuing to turn a blind eye to the terrorists within their charge, we will need to come back and do the job for them - the next time with deadly serious intent, not some PC police action. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

There are a lot of new jumpers who are afraid of no wind landings. To think they should reconsider jumping is quite a stretch. Most 1st time jumpers are afraid to exit: should they stay on the ground? get real... Of course not; and I readily acknowledge his expertise (did I even have to say that - I didn't grow up in a cultural vacuum you know). I'm just saying the headline is over the top. Could have been "Managing the Challenges of a No Wind Landing." Or, going the other way, to really get attention: "The Absolute Horrors of the No Wind Landing!" " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I think the over-the-top choice of words "One of the most dreaded conditions of all . . . " deserves a bit of ridiclule. It is the kind of sensationalist hype we usually make fun of when it comes from the mainstream media. I don't think no wind constitutes "One of the most dreaded conditions of all . . ." That reads like a headline from the National Enquirer or something from FOX. Unbelievable, there I was, at 2000 feet, and no wind!!!!!!!! " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

My only comment here is: Do these guys really think they look like Elvis? Maybe part of the joke is that they do not look at all like Elvis. Do they think that wearing something white and putting on some headpiece that looks more like a sumo wrestler hairdo makes them resemble Elvis? If you are going to do The King, for crying out loud, put some effort into it. If I put on a navy suit and red tie, with any old piece of crap gray wig do you think I would look like George H. W. Bush? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

You know, that was exactly my reaction upon first seeing the article. I love it when there is no wind. You can get a nice little surf with no special inputs at all. What next: The Dreaded Non-Tandem Jump Or maybe: You Too Can Survive Your First Four-Way " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

It is a great old plane. I've made about 40 of my 600 from that beast, including my first.. With it's flaming roaring pipes, it is also the coolest plane from which to get a buzz job. I know some people do not like to jump it, but I enjoy it occasionally, if nothing for nostalgia. It would be nice if it had a proper door though. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

In light of the original post, I'm wondering what he had to say about the Richmond Boogie. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

It's more about their culture getting their act together, not about the conflict between our culture and theirs. It is their police arresting their citizens for not complying with their religiously driven laws that obviously many do not agree with. Or perhaps you think the ones that get arrested for not dressing according to scripture want to be arrested? I also disagree with your statement about democracy. The mullahs have the final say, and bring their wrath down upon those that disagree. They are not elected. When the final say comes from non-elected religious figures with no check or balance to their power - that is not a democracy. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Correction; it is "The Last THREE Minutes." And I never knew he (Paul Davies) was at one time a prof in Newcastle. Way cool. I went to school for a year in Alnwick, and we had profs from Newcastle visit. Small world. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Easy example: Any growing plant or animal that is taking nutrients and turning them into living tissue. That is a local and temporay increase in order - as all order is local and temporary. Interbreeding is not really relevant - unless you get lions or people or some other sexually reproducing organism isolated and procreating with their next of kin for several generations. That causes mutations to accumulate at a dangerous pace. IIRC, with the lion group it has resulted in loss of fertility. So yes, interbreeding can become a problem if it is carried on beyond a certain degree. If you meant that sexual reproduction solely within a species is itself a roadblock to evolution; it is exactly the opposite. Sexuality was the best thing to ever happen to evolution. Maybe I misunderstood this comment: "Personally I do not think that Genesis 6 days is factual, however neither do I believe there is any more evidence that can reliably be called on to fully support evolution - as the origins of life & diversity as we see it today." It reads to me like you are saying there is no more evidence for evolution than Genesis. Clarify if I am wrong there. Either way though, there is so much evidence that evolution is the source of diversity and is the reason for the origins of species that to question it you really need to come up with major flaws and/or evidence to the contrary. 200 years of intense research have produced no such thing. BTW, Darwin did not write about evolution, he wrote about natural selection. Evolution is the theory (and a very strong and well established one); natural selection is a fact. Interesting trivia bit: Darwin never even used the word evolution until the very end of the book - and I think it was evolve that was used, and only once in the entire work. He never even touched on the origin of life, only on how speciation occurs. Apologize for use of parroting. Probably a bit of an insult. But I am seriously interested in where you are coming from with the thermodynamics arguement. It is a favorite of ID proponents and fundies, and is absolutely, unequivocally, positively wrong wrong wrong. Anybody familiar with the laws of thermodynamics knows this. So when somebody introduces an idea like that, one that is the stock and trade of those that intentionally deceive, I question where they got it. If you came to the idea on your own, well, now you know better. If you got it from a book or website, I'd like to know which. Here's a good that has a lot to do with entropy: "The Last Two Minutes" I believe by Paul Davies. It is a good overall discussion of the life and times of our Universe, with an emphasis on what the heat death will look like if we in fact do live in an ever-expanding Universe. A bit morbid sure, but very entertaining. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Especially good on you. If I were a woman I'd date you. But seriously, that is my interpretation exactly. So what is it with the fundies? What's your take on how things got so twisted? My perspective is that once organized religion got to be a political entity, as with anything political, common sense went out the window. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

You consider a visit to the Women Only forum a tittilating experience. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Major sinus issues here. Have had several operations (polypectomy, Caldwell-Luc, redrilled nasal windows, sinus lavage, straightening of septum, . . . you name it and I've had it done, and all of them at least twice each). Allergies are the root of it all for me. During the worst seasons (spring and fall, flowering and going to seed) I take over the counter meds. They do help, but on average it takes my ears about 12 to 24 hours to clear after jumping. Also, sometimes opening shock will knock big gobs of snot out of my head. The plugged ears and snot are worth it though. Keep jumping, and carry a snot rag in your jumpsuit so you can clean up reasonably before landing. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

When you go looking for trouble, you don't mess around heh? Just a side note for Steveorino - You take this all in stride and appear to handle it with a lot of class and dignity and respect and all; very good on you. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley