Kennedy

His logic is impeccable, and I am arriving at the right answer, and he disagrees with me. Maybe your logic should be called into question here... Do us both a favor. Go back and read this thread through. Then tell me where you got confused. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I said commonly referred to as lawsuits. The twelve idiots in the box tend to call it a trial for criminal and a lawsuit for civil, and most don't know what admin actions are or that they even exist. Are you under the impression I oppose S. 659? I hate to break it to you, but Kallend is the one opposing this legislation. I am for it 100%. I have no idea why you are attempting to explain to me that which I already understand and have posted in this very thread. ps - since I have given it to everyone else, I have to tell you, that 'check spelling' button right next to 'post reply' is really quite handy. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Nah. The government even half assed that. Like you said, to a degree. We have partially socialized healthcare right now. I just don't think THIS govt can pull off socializing much of anything. Me, I'm all about personal responsibility, so anything smacking of paternal govt really frosts my ass. Healthcare though, that's one of those things were I would support a safety net. The problem is when you provide a safety net and people decide it's high enough to hold them. And there we see the problem inherent in a all socialist policies: people. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Here Here!!! witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Well, this one wasn't a hoax, persay. It may not work, but not a hoax. It was in a Popular Science last time I heard anything about it. I understand the basics of mass reshaping existence theory. The problem, as I understand it, is that it can't handle quantum physics. (disclaimer: I don't claim to understand quantum theory, but as far as I'm concerned, anyone who says they do understands it less than me) So I guess my question is do you think gravity can be redirected or reshaped? If gravity is another form of energy, why can't it be changed, like light, radiation, etc? The theory that caught my eye was one stating there are 10-12 dimensions to the universe. I suppose if we say time, or expanding three dimensions, is the fourth, then maybe the fifth would create the so-called multiverse. Expanding time and creating infinite numbers of alternate universes. You could argue cartoons are three dimensional, requiring time to function while not possessing our common third, depth. It's interesting, if nothing else. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

My understanding (very small with physics) is that the most effective (read: not easy) way is not to fight gravity, but to cancel it out below you. Think I read a few months ago that there was not only research in this area, but testing of prototypes using some superconduction and .... hell if I remember what it's called. Any physicians in the house? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Well, it seems to me those many industries are supporting this "piecemeal solution." as seen on NAM site. But you can ignore that (I kind of expect you to), but take a look here and specifically here. Boy, those other industries sure are worried about taking the pressure off... If you only want congress to pass "far enough" legislation, you might as well tell them to go home and collect their paychecks, because nothing starts out "far enough." They're doing some serious healthcare work right now, and while no one thinks it goes "far enough," even the AARP is behind it. Just because you can't get stitches for a gaping wound right away, that doesn't mean you should turn down bandaids. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

No, no, no, and again, no. If the manufacturers et al protected by this bill ever actually do something that falls under the category of illegal or liable, they can be sued. This just stops a particular set of lawsuits that are not based in law. It says you can't sue them for making their products. Hence "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms." It doesn't say protection of all commerce in arms. And you can still go out and sue them for your ridiculous reasons after the bill becomes law. 99% of judges would throw it out before it goes to court. (kind of like what happens now, except we save everyone hundreds of thouseands of dollars) If you consider making and selling guns to be at fault, maybe they will be found guilty one of these days. But those of us who understand civil law know that they never will. And just so you know, I am friends with a man who sued a gun company and won. Why did he win? Because the product was faulty and did not function as designed or as a reasonable man would expect it to. (the model had a bad tendency for the frame to shatter after a few dozens rounds) The question is what do you qualify as wrongdoing. If you consider their being in business wrongdoing, then I understand why you would oppose S. 659. If, on the other hand, you happen to agree with a few centuries of common law, I don't see how you can be against it. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

True, but the difference is the tobacco companies actually did something wrong. As has been discussed, they intentionally made their products more addictive and more unhealthy. But be honest, did people really think cigarettes were healthy? They wake up one morning and go "Oh F@#%ing Hell! I thought they were good for me, with Vitamin C and $hit." That what happened? Well, I wrote my congressman, and he'd love to help, but according some old document with some amendments, we can't ban you. OK, legislation is out. I think I'll invite phillykev, johnrich, skydivr, and a few others and we'll sue you kallend. Repeatedly. What for? Oh, how about public nuisance. How about flooding the forums with more BS than the market supports. How about we just make up some other ridiculous claims. I'm sure we won't win at first. But the legal fees just might bury you, and force you to liquidate your computer. Our suits will be junk, but hey, we may just uncover some wrong-doing. Either way once you sell your computer to pay legal fees, we accomplish what we wanted. We attain our goals even though we never passed legislation banning you and we never won a case. Juries are a byproduct of the trials. Their decisions are irrelevant here because no one expects to win. The legal fees are enough. I wonder how 'mainstream' you are, seeing as more than thirty states passed this sort of legislation, the house passed it easily, unions and manufacturers in every field I can think of support it, and the majority of senators are for it. What makes you think YOU know better than the rest of us? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT ?!?!?!? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

You're full of . . . One and only warning. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

dealers would be protected by this new law as well. Even after I posted the bill, you still could not bother to read it? Or do you not understand the difference between civil and criminal court cases? Selling to a criminal is illegal. That falls under criminal law. It has nothing to do with this bill. This bill covers civil liability actions, commonly known as lawsuits. See the difference now? Next time, feel free to ask questions. Or do the research yourself. Both are good choices. The bad choice is showing up and making weak arguments based on faulty logic and incorrect facts. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I thought it was the right to bear arms not the right to manufacture arms Well I'm glad you agree they are a separate class of corporation, that they are relevant to the safety of citizens, and this country. As to your 'thought,' how do we do one without the other? Rather simple concept, I think. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Can I borrow your crystal ball? I want to know who's going to win the superbowl. And the next powerball winning numbers. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Yes and it took lawsuits and the research that went into them to find that out. What if there had been a law that protected them? What are you looking for here? There have been lawsuits and they have found nothing. And what is it that you think the manufacturers are doing wrong? Why are they being sued? Because their products function exactly as designed? If that's the case, go pass legislation changing how they are allowed to do business. Enough legislating from the bench. Would you rather have a judge make the law for us all, or our elected representatives? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

OK, when did you make it clear you hadn't passed judgement? You seem to be attacking arguments on only one side of the issue, so don't give me this "I'm the voice of reason" garbage. Gun manufacturers are more than a separate class of corporation. They have SAAMI. They are relevant to the safety of citizens, and this country. They are involved in a Constitutional right. So their treratment is already different, and I would not say privileged. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

So write your congressman. I have. And you'll notice one my major domestic political concerns is on the schedule. You know how happy I'd be if the entire legal system underwent a successful reform? (though they might as well change the system to say 60 votes to pass anything in the senate, since a filibuster is killing every third important bill) Also, they specifically detailed their reason for the bill in its text. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I had hoped to avoid posting the entire bill, but people don't seem to be able to follow a link and type six characters, so here it is: witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

and I'm sure if they did, we would see a "protection of lawful commerce in _____" if they were. I think of this bill as codifying judicial precedent. They have not and will not succeed, so we will stop them before they cost everyone money and tie up our legal system. That seems rational to me. How many times have auto makers been propped up with tax dollars? And airlines? If you read the bill, they explain themselves. Auto makers have the technology to make cars more efficient and cleaner without making them harder to use. They don't so greenies sue them, saying they should. (elf and alf freaks, not our moderators) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

oooh, the many personal attacks that must be getting quashed in fear of billvon. what a fool........................ish argument witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

oooh, pertinent example. I like it. So how about it Kallend, do we sue Mirage and Icarus if somebody borrows my rig, swoops in, and breaks your neck? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

By the way, my sig line is a personal view on self defense, not on how to resolve every situation I come across. And really, I'd rather not be judged until I meet St. Peter at the pearly gates. (I assume you recognize the six reference) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Aragorn I get to live long, have the blood of kings, kick an evil god's ass, have two hot chicks that want me, and I'm gonna rule the world. pretty shweet yeah, I'm the man. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

There's this little thing called a criminal action. And when one of those happens, it breaks the chain of responsibility. Hammer makers are sued, when their products are faulty and the cause of injury to the user. Car makers are sued, when something on the car fails. No one is saying the gun makers should be immune from all lawsuits. They are still liable for product safety and performance. If a gun fails, or blows up in your face, you can still sue. The analogy is like this. If a hammer is used to kill somebody, do you sue Craftsman? If a drunk kills someone in his car, do you sue Ford? If a beer bottle is used to kill somebody, do you sue Anheuser-Busch? No, because they cannot control what a third party does. Go Here and search S. 659 It's not denying anyone their day in court, it's preventing malicious suits that sought through court costs what they could not gain through legislation or judicial decisions. According to centuries of common law, American jurisprudence, thirty-some state governments, a majority of congressmen and senators, the president, and nearly every judge to decide such a case, the manufacturer was, indeed, not negligent, or a public nuisance, or responsible for an act by a third party. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Somebody help me out here. I know Levenworth is the real thing, but most prisons I've been to or looked into have nicer living quarters than I do. Free cable, too. But yeah, go have a cook out in the sand or go to jail sounds like a good answer to me. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*