chrisgr

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply anything. You will hopefully notice some important differences yourself when you jump the Stiletto 150. What else have you demo’ed?

Be careful about ‘doing it for the rush’. That kind of thinking can lead to bad decisions. Swooping can be a rush and a buzz, but you should feel that AFTER you’ve put your feet down. Setting up and entering into an approach should be a slow, deliberate process that allows you to see the entire landing picture and identify potential problems and available outs. Assuming that you’ve mastered straight in approaches using double-fronts, your learning process sounds good … Double fronts, to 90 degree frontriser/harness carve, back to Double fronts, Continue being conservative and enjoy safe swoops!

At 362 jumps, your Hornet 150 at 1.3 w/l is an excellent place to continue learning canopy control skills. Stay where you’re at and fly the Hornet 150 MORE. Also, you should stay at the same w/l when switching to a fully elliptical. Jump the Hornet 150 MORE and then switch to a fully elliptical 150. If you don’t want to hear this advice because you’re ‘not asking if I should downsize’, then downsize (one size) to another semi-elliptical canopy such as another Hornet or a Lotus, Sabre 2, etc. Here’s a Hornet 135 for sale … http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=15541&d=1 Here’s a Sabre 2 135 … http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=16166&d=1 I jumped the crap out of my Sabre 150 (700+ jumps) at 1.3 before switching to a Stiletto 150. After 300 jumps on the Stiletto, I now feel prepared to downsize. I get the impression that you don’t want to hear this, so I’ll say it again … fly the Hornet 150 MORE! Do you remember what billvon told you in 2002 … http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=281792#281792 … rather than tell you what canopy you should jump I will tell you the skills you need: -Can you land in a 10 meter target circle reliably? -Can you land crosswind and in no wind? -Can you land on uphill/downhill slopes? -Can you initiate a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet and land safely? -Can you turn 45 degrees during the flare and land standing up? -Can you land with rear risers? -Can you make a double front riser/turning front riser approach?

Ditto on the left handed approach. I realized something similar many years ago when I started skateboarding and always started with my left foot on the board. Same thing when I started to waterski and always had my left foot forward on a slalom ski. If I try to kick something, it's with my right foot. Not because it's preferred, but because I feel more stability standing on my left foot / leg. Now -- together with the common left pattern -- I am more comfortable with left approaches. Weird.

Do something funky and post your creation!

The control inputs for backflying were not intuitive and felt ‘backwards’. After a little practice – and bumping my head against the wall – it became easier. Backflying in the tunnel provided a great lesson in recovery techniques for head-up flying. It also provided another method of hanging with slower fliers or newbies. I learned how to use this trick to REALLY vary my fallrate. When you are practicing in the air, do you have another flier as a reference?

Reginald, Why do you think he has no business trying to swoop? Please explain.

Do you smoke crack before you jump or just before you post?

Beth, You are paying your instructors. You are paying for your jump ticket. You are probably paying for rental gear. You are already aware that you are not getting what you are paying for – instruction on essential canopy control skills that are necessary to save your life. Ask your instructor(s) that you be allowed to focus on these canopy control skills. Ask for the chance to practice these skills on at least one jump that is dedicated to canopy control. Ask for video, but don’t be surprised if you need to pay extra for this – it’s worth it. Continue to work on canopy control / survival skills on every jump, but take the time to make at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. If you do not get what you need, take your money elsewhere.

Tom, it was a decent post and worth discussing … Lower experience jumpers who practice up high should only be using conservative turns -- or strictly double fronts -- for HP canopy flight. When they have developed a consistent technique and an awareness for the altitude loss associated with a particular maneuver, they can bring these tricks in on landings. There is a progression that must take place to survive this skill development. Someone with 44 jumps practicing 270 turns on a Tri210 will probably miss some of the more basic skills that can be acquired by following a safe progression. Example: practicing the smooth application of double-fronts until the jumper can consistently land using this technique is required before integrating this skill with any type of turn onto final. From another thread … - start with double fronts for 50-100 jumps - then move to a 45-90 degree front riser carve "leaving yourself an out" 50-100 jumps - then move to 90-120 front riser carves "leaving yourself an out" 100 jumps or more. - then 120-180 front riser carve "leaving yourself an out" 100 jumps or more Do all of the above on the same canopy.

Reginald, see billvon’s post … http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1320171#1320171 Also IMO … Student training programs should include at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. The student would not be thinking about the freefall objectives other than to safely get out the door and under their canopy. Get an instructor in the air with them or ensure that one is watching from the ground. Either way, you could provide radio assistance to the student and give them feedback as they work on their canopy control / survival skills. The student would have the time to focus on specific drills and apply the feedback provided by the instructor. This feedback, together with the repetition of the skill, would help the student build a positive memory of the task and improve their odds of being able to use that skill in an emergency situation. Of course, students would still work on their canopy control / survival skills on every jump. I just think that it’s worth committing the time – and resources – for students (and the rest of us on a routine basis!) to do at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control.

Recent tale from one large DZ… Some bad blood between 2 employees led to a violent fight in which one employee continually struck the other until the first employee’s wrist was injured. The other employee received numerous facial bruises and lacerations. No one called law enforcement and both of the parties are still working at the DZ. IMO… Consider what many other businesses would do in such a situation. At the very least, one or both of the employees could be arrested for assault and they may both be subject to immediate termination. The outcome will vary depending on company policies and procedures. Businesses may be liable for the behavior and actions of their employees while they are at work. It can be an incredible liability for a company (this includes DZ’s) to allow an employee to remain at work when they have demonstrated a violent temper and have verbally and physically intimidated and / or abused a co-worker. Every business has an obligation to maintain a safe environment for its employees and its customers. If an employee or frequent / regular customer threatens another employee / customer, the company must take it seriously. Why should a skydiving business be any different? DZO’s: Call the cops and get the offenders off your DZ as soon as possible. If the offenders are employees, discipline them according to DZ policies (hopefully these policies exist and document a course of action in such situations). If the offenders are customers, tell them to find another place to jump. Either way, document your actions and contact your attorney.

Tdog, Bill frequently provides solutions to many problems through these forums (and I’m sure through direct teaching with other skydivers). Remember what he said … “I agree that such training is sorely lacking in today's student programs” and … “Implement the canopy restrictions we described in PARACHUTIST. They basically require education before you can downsize quickly.” I believe that the most important element in this proposal is not the downsizing restriction, but the education that the skydiver must receive. This process could ensure that even if someone isn’t interested in ‘high performance canopy flight’, they will get the education and training necessary to safely fly their canopy of choice. Bill and others have developed a good solution that would still allow the skydiver to progress to the canopy of their choice.

Tom, great post! Tdog, you also have an excellent point. Considering that most student training disciplines teach skydiving AND some canopy control, the time that is provided to acquire and practice canopy control skills is limited to the brief period of time after the freefall and before entering the landing pattern. After completing most or all of the program, students usually do one(1) hop-n-pop from a lower altitude that still does not give them enough time to really work on their canopy control skills. From Tom’s Point 4 … Students learn best through repetition. The BIC and Coach material suggests a student should practice a skill a minimum of 25 times in order to make it permanent. IMO … Student training programs should include at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. The student would not be thinking about the freefall objectives other than to safely get out the door and under their canopy. Get an instructor in the air with them or ensure that one is watching from the ground. Either way, you could provide radio assistance to the student and give them feedback as they work on their canopy control / survival skills. The student would have the time to focus on specific drills and apply the feedback provided by the instructor. This feedback, together with the repetition of the skill, would help the student build a positive memory of the task and improve their odds of being able to use that skill in an emergency situation. Of course, students would still work on their canopy control / survival skills on every jump. I just think that it’s worth committing the time – and resources – for students (and the rest of us on a routine basis!) to do at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control.

You put one(1) jump on a Sabre 190 and now you’re going to buy one?

From the SDC website ... "We have staked out the swoop pond that will soon be going in. It will be placed in the north landing area behind the fuel truck. It will be a 200’x200’ diamond allowing us to host Pro swooping meets and the Nationals. There will still be plenty of room around the pond for people wanting ‘open’ space for landing. We are making it mandatory that you get cleared to swoop the pond. We are working on a ‘qualifier’." IMO: Those interested in heading to Ottawa for the swoop pond should keep up to date with the required 'qualifications'.

Are you a southpaw?

Good idea. Just don’t get too caught up reading your ‘play sheet’. Instead of writing down several tasks for your canopy flight, why not focus on a particular drill or objective? I have had better experience opening high and working on one skill during a canopy flight. If I focus on a particular task and repeat the drill several times during the canopy flight, I can evaluate what is happening as I apply different levels of input to the canopy for that specific task. It is much easier for me to work on that one objective and then review the canopy flight in detail after I get on the ground. Your play sheet(s) may be very good for reminders about the particular drill you have planned for that canopy flight. Enjoy your new canopy!

There is a regular group of local jumpers (one group of 5?) who don’t pay attention to exit separation and the important differences in fall rates and drift of belly-fliers vs freefliers. The attitude of these guys appears to be that they already ‘know better’ and that their experience is more important than what is practiced and accepted in other places. They also did not understand that the ground speed of the Porter was usually quite slow (45 MPH on Saturday) and that the slower speed required more time between groups. More than one local jumper simply counted to 10 (very quickly) and jumped. They are fortunate that the Porter only holds 9 jumpers. I believe that the smaller number of jumpers in the plane has helped to minimize potential incidents caused by improper exit order / separation. It has also helped to minimize potential landing incidents. When I watched this group land for the first time, I was very grateful to be on the ground. There was little or no discipline when approaching the landing area and at least one jumper choose to spiral down in front of other jumpers. When I did get into the air, I tracked like there was no tomorrow after each jump to get away from the line of flight before opening. I then continued flying my canopy away from the line of flight on jump run and waited in brakes until I could verify that all of these guys were getting down on the ground. This is too bad for few reasons. Jay (the DZO) seemed like a really good guy and he was busting his buns the whole time I was there. He was providing ground instructions for tandems and AFF students, packing various rigs, jumping tandems and AFF, debriefing, etc. He is also a rigger who does regular business with some of the locals. The dropzone is on a nice, quiet municipal airport with plenty of room to land (thank goodness) and they have a great plane. I wish them the best, but would caution anyone who goes there to use extra care.

Vinton has a great Turbine Porter and was a nice place to jump. Too bad the locals don't take too well to freefliers.

Weekdays at SDC are a great time to jump. I have been there on Thursdays and Fridays in the past and the Otter was flying Tandems, AFP’s and fun-jumpers. Many of the staff-members also take time during the week to do their own fun jumping or to work on other skills. Even if there is not enough people (6 or 8?) manifested for the Otter, the 182 will fly. There is usually at least one person available who can assist with packing. A weekday would also be a great time to find someone who can provide a packing lesson. One of the available packers or someone from Para Concepts could help. SDC is VERY cool with people who are new to both skydiving and the dropzone. Gravitational, sorry you had a bad experience. Hope you made it back! STL

Rhino, what was your canopy progression? That word – progression – is very important for the long-term health of many jumpers. You may be one of the few exceptions who have survived rapid downsizing to higher wing-loadings on higher-performance canopies. I hope your success continues. Some of what you have said is very important to consider -- especially about doing a 180 hook. No one here wants SuperKat to try 180’s – on any canopy. The main issue is the unique experience of the pilot and their progression. You stated that “If someone wants to SERIOUSLY learn to swoop I believe 1.4-1.6 is the best place to start on an elliptical canopy ‘providing they are ready for that loading’”. Few people with 215 jumps are ready for an elliptical loaded at 1.4-1.6 and even fewer of us would ever recommend such a progression. SuperKat is taking a safe, disciplined approach by working on the double-fronts and practicing up high. SuperKat is also being safe by learning as much as possible under a good wing that is appropriate for their level of experience.

Rhino may have a point regarding the potential safety benefits of a longer recovery arc, but these benefits can become deadly when low-time swoopers get in over their heads. Consistently landing a Spectre at .9 – which SuperKat already flies – is a skill that can be transferred to other canopies. Taking a safe, disciplined approach is the only way to prepare yourself for other, higher-performance canopies. SuperKat, keep up the good work, fly safe and enjoy your canopy. There is SO much that you can do now and you’re on the right track!

A 270 turn at our wingloading (1.35) under a Stiletto can be difficult ... and potentially dangerous. I get better performance from my Stil150 using a 180 turn. Trying to keep the speed through the entire 270 is tough as the riser pressure builds and I am more comfortable setting up for a 180 ... even after more than 300 jumps on the Stiletto. When I was trying 270's, I would start the turn slowly, but then found the riser pressure to build too much during the later part of the dive. If the canopy planed out too high, I could do pull-ups in the dive loops and get no further dive from the canopy. If I tried to speed up the initial part of the turn, I began to get more inconsistent results. When I went back to slower 180's, my consistency increased and the swoops got longer. My Stil150 responds much better to a SLOWER turn rate. You may find the same on yours under the similar loading. You have an opportunity now to try something very helpful ... Go back to 90's and practice up high. Think about the behavior of the canopy as you turn at different RATES. Consider the difference in the dive when you turn faster or slower. When you find a comfortable turn rate at 90 degrees, try landing it. Slow and smooooooth.

Keep flying the Stiletto and get coaching -- perhaps talk with your DZ's local pro's and/or the S&TA. Learn as much as you can at a conservative w/l! It might be ok for you to continue on the Stiletto, but do NOT downsize now. I have had a LOT of fun on my Sabre 150 and Stiletto 150. I started getting good swoops from the Sabre a couple of years ago ... and then put another 350 jumps on it before even switching to the Stiletto! Fly your wing!