chrisgr

My point to you was this ... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1383263#1383263 Canopy progression requires experience.

Why not apply that logic to canopy progression?

You have some excellent suggestions for a standardized, mandatory education program. The discussion in the Safety and Training forum was intended to get this type of input. Would you consider posting your thoughts there?

Thanks again for providing a good explanation for why we need a w/l restriction and mandatory canopy training that goes beyond what is currently provided. Here is a link to one proposal for a new canopy training program ... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1407364#1407364

Chuck, you have another very good point. Due to the lighter w/l, I had to increase the speed of the turn to get decent results from the 270 deg approach. This could have been close to “snapping around” the canopy. I do not consider this to be safe or effective for HP landings. The 180 deg turns on my Sabre and Stiletto do not require that increased turn rate. At my w/l, I can take it slow and build speed through the 180 deg turn. This is far more comfortable for me and I get much better and more consistent results.

From personal experience, the article is right on target. I have over 1100 jumps at ~1.35 … 700 on a Sabre and 400 on a Stiletto. When I started my progression on HP landings, the Sabre was a great canopy to learn the basics. I spent a lot of time flying the Sabre and learning different approaches and landing it in a variety of conditions. As I started performing larger turns (up to 270 deg) however, the results became less consistent and I found that the canopy (and I) did not perform as well. Due to the lighter w/l, the canopy would frequently start to recover from the dive before the 270 deg turn was completed. I backed off to 180 deg turns and worked on my consistency and accuracy. When I switched to the Stiletto 2 years ago, I started the skills progression again and worked my way back up to 180 deg turns. The 180 is also the maximum turn for me under this canopy. Anything more and the results do not justify the risk. For me, the most important part of the article is that all jumpers must learn about the behavior of their canopy before attempting any HP landing maneuver. Understanding how your canopy responds to different types of input is critical before bringing in a HP landing. I am very concerned, however, that some jumpers may misunderstand this article. As Tree mentioned, there are specific skills that must be mastered before moving on to larger turns. Some jumpers may interpret this article as reason to downsize so they can perform larger turns – without mastering the basics.

I am pleasantly surprised to hear that. Some of his previous posts suggest that he is more impressed with the performance benefits of downsizing to a higher w/l than teaching a safe skill progression. Take your time and enjoy.

Did he tell you to downsize?

Hope you have recovered from the bad landings. Regardless of how you setup and approach the landing area, you will always be individually responsible for landing your canopy. Even if you are dependant upon your JM for your landing pattern, the actual landing is up to you. You were able to safely land your canopy when you followed someone else in the pattern. However, it doesn’t matter if you followed someone else to the landing area -- you landed the canopy using your own knowledge and skills. It may have helped to have someone in front of you because you were able to relax and think more about proper flare and landing technique. As that becomes more second nature, you will be able to incorporate that skill with the other skills required to navigate in a landing pattern. It is interesting to watch some jumpers who started at small DZ’s when they first get to a larger DZ or boogie with more canopy traffic. This transition causes some jumpers more difficulty with their landings because of the other distractions. You may have been distracted when you first had to pick and fly a pattern on your own. This distraction may have affected your landings.

Consider how frequently some instructors use different jumpsuits, weights, etc. to stay with students in freefall. Chances are that most instructors can get another student rig or other canopy that will allow them to hang with the student during the canopy training. Most students are not able to discern when a canopy may be approaching in a controlled manner for no-contact CRW. If they are briefed on the plan for the hop-n-pop and who will be in the air with them, perhaps they will be more comfortable with another canopy nearby. Perhaps the task of flying within 100 feet of another canopy for no less than 60 seconds would be the place to start training. That might help the student become more comfortable and allow the instructor to fly closer to better watch and film the remaining jumps.

At 40 jumps, you have achieved the wisdom that so many others seem to lack.

Thank you for making our point! Anyone who has problems safely landing their canopy under any conditions should reconsider their canopy choice. Students and low-time jumpers do not have the practical experience to know what is REALLY an appropriate canopy for their skill level. The w/l restriction would help protect jumpers from learning this the hard way. It sounds like your past training included landing in a target area that was defined as a circle. This was good for you when you were a low-time jumper … now you have 1600+ jumps and over 10 years of experience. You are also correct that the new training program is not for you. It is for the students and low-time jumpers who need the extra training and guidance in a structured program that has graduation and licensing requirements. Is your DZ still hosting student weekends? That’s a nice way to focus on skill development for new jumpers for freefall, canopy safety, gear maintenance, packing, etc. Perhaps you could kick-start the program and help improve the overall safety of your DZ.

I hope everyone got this from one of Dave's prior posts ... And now, one of the most important components of a w/l restriction – a canopy flight program that would provide additional training beyond our current student programs … http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1407364#1407364 This type of advanced canopy training should be considered part of any proposal to restrict w/l.

During an off-field landing into a tight area, most jumpers will not -- and should not -- execute high-performance landings as if they were on a ‘swoop course’. Can your students perform a straight-in approach to a landing target in deep brakes and ‘sink’ their canopies onto the target?

Forgive me, but I'm not sure if you answered the question. In addition to swooping, have your students mastered the survival skills on the list? You should consider that when someone makes an off-field landing, they will not be looking at any lines -- or circles -- on the ground. However, being able to consistently land within a 10 meter circle is a better representation of a canopy pilot's ability to safely land in tight areas and is still a well-established standard for licensing in the US.

As your students were making their canopy progressions, did they demonstrate basic survival skills on one canopy before downsizing to another? Perhaps they can swoop a pond, but can they perform these skills … - flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet - flare turn at least 45 degrees - land crosswind and in no wind - land reliably within a 10 meter circle - initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing - land on slight uphills and downhills - land with rear risers The published list is an excellent way to measure if someone is really ready to downsize ... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

Beth, Sorry to hear about your injury. Hope you are healing nicely. You are aware of your personal responsibility to safely fly and land your canopy. Your instructors should also care enough to ensure that you have learned these basic skills … including how to perform a PLF. Life is full of opportunities… http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1327077#1327077

You have demonstrated a good understanding and respect for the canopies that you choose to fly. Every jumper needs this same knowledge and respect for their canopies. Many of our student programs provide some form of basic canopy control, but none could provide the level of knowledge and training that you have acquired during your 10+ years of skydiving. For those new skydivers who cannot learn these survival instincts quickly enough, the w/l restriction may help protect them from the dangers of rapid downsizing.

Matt got the extra education that he needed because of his own initiative. He overcame a dangerous limitation of many of our current educational and training programs. You are correct: a w/l not to exceed limit with no educational component would be mere legislation. Hopefully the discussion can continue and emphasize how we can consistently teach those skills that Matt had to learn on his own. To continue with a previous example … keep in mind that the educational process that teaches us how and why we pull above 2K goes far beyond what is referenced in the BSR’s.

Drew, Did you transition directly from the Stil120 to the Sam105? If so, how did the higher w/l on the Sam feel compared to the Stiletto?

Nice quote, but the wise man may not have considered that effective regulations are often combined with education. Education will be crucial to make the regulation stick and will provide some guidance to the ‘blind idiots’. You said … “Only you are going to decide what you want to fly, and no one is going to talk you out of it once your mind is made up. Only you can decide if you have made a poor choice in canopy size, and need to upsize.” If a low-timer doesn’t have the training and understanding to recognize what size/type of canopy is appropriate for them, do you want them to find out the hard way? The 2K pull rule wasn’t just a regulation that was slapped on us. We have been taught about these rules during our student training and most of us have recognized the real need for following the regulation. Making the w/l regulation part of the educational process may require you as an instructor to educate your students about the need for the w/l ‘not to exceed’ rule and your help may be required to enforce the regulation. Are you willing to do that?

Thanks for the tips. Considering the possibility of losing my shirt in the tunnel (pun intended), we’ll take our FF suits and make plans to have tunnel suits at the ready.

While I strongly agree with the need for a ‘not to exceed’ restriction, I would be cautious about its implementation. Comments by some already indicate a possible interpretation of this rule as a guideline. This rule is intended as a maximum allowable w/l – a regulation. It is not intended as a ‘progression’ chart. Just because someone has 400 jumps does not mean that they are ready for a 1.4 w/l on certain canopies. As mentioned in previous posts, we can wait until 2K to get a PC out, but most of us do that considerably higher.

It has been 2 years since I was in the Orlando tunnel and I am planning a trip back – finally – in late January. Back in 2002, baggy suits were standard issue for freefliers who wanted to play in the tunnel and it was still a lot of work. It was a LOT of fun, but still very physically challenging. With the new motors and improved lift, are freefliers ok in their own rags? I usually just wear FF pants and a long-sleeve tee. My FF partner and I both have ‘slower’ natural fall rates – 145 in a sit. From what I’ve read, we should be OK. Comments or suggestions?

Early in my skydiving career, I was approaching the landing area and noticed a friend watching from the ground. At that point, I decided to ‘swoop the beer line’. I grabbed a riser, made an ugly turn and pounded myself into the ground. The canopy continued flying my bruised body another 50+ feet before depositing my pathetic carcass on the ground. A couple of people who witnessed the horror were very surprised to see me get up under my own power and were even more surprised that I was able to walk back to the hanger. I was extremely lucky to have only suffered some severe bruising and road rash. There was no plan or foresight into this turn. I did not use a conventional approach towards the beer line and I acted on an impulsive ‘need’ to show off. Some lessons: 1) swoop for your own pleasure … not to satisfy others 2) know when you are going to swoop and have a plan 3) be aware of your outs -- throughout your turn 4) know thy altitude – throughout your turn 5) be ready, willing and able to abort your swoop or swoop plans at any time The worst damage from this incident is that my friend has been left with the permanent image of my body pounding into the ground. Someone who cares about me – and who I care very much about –saw me almost permanently plant myself because of a foolish, impetuous mistake. The effects of the road rash can still be seen on parts of my legs, knees and ankles today and I hope they never heal. There is nothing I can do to remove that image from my friend’s memory, but I can do a lot now to avoid another incident. Thanks to all who continue to inform, discuss and educate through these forums.