Guru312

And thanks for your effort. This mystery needs as many facts as it can get. What I'm going to relate below is not a "fact" it’s speculation. But the presented material may change our perspective on a few things. If nothing else, it creates a much larger “Drop Zone” for DB’s possible landing point. More correctly, it creates a much larger possible DZ for the money bag’s landing point. Allow me to explain... About three weeks ago I sent an email to the owner of a company which has been in the business of manufacturing bank bags for over one hundred years. I asked him in my email if the SeaFirst bank, being in the continually wet NorthWest, would have had purchased water proof canvas bags. After three weeks time, I got no reply. I figured he thought my questions too bizarre to be worthy of a response. Much to my delight, he sent this response: You recently wrote concerning a money bag that may have been used in a hijacking by DB Cooper. I would be happy to talk with you about this if you will give me a call. NOTE: The gentlemen asked that I not use his name and not identify his company but he was quite willing to answer all of my questions and discuss the issue with that provision of anonymity. I agreed reluctantly to not identify him or to mention of his company. Almost as good as getting his email was the fact that he supplied an 800 number in the email and his company paid for our 50 minute telephone call! I told him that after waiting three weeks for a response I really didn't expect to hear from him. He said, "After more than 35 years what's another few weeks?" I laughed and liked him immediately after that comment. He told me that he remembers the hijacking and all fuss from back then. He and his friends talked about it often. He was so interested in my questions that he took the time to look back through his company records and found sales records showing sales to the "Seattle First National Bank" but the oldest records he could find were for the late '70s and early 80s. Also, he indicated that in 1971, no bank bag manufacturers made truly waterproof canvas bags. During the 70s and prior his company sold "treated" bags, which he called "water repellent", but they were not truly waterproof as bags made today actually are. So, DB wasn't given a true water proof bag. I called the bag manufacturer because of my hypothesis: I'm assuming that DB lost the bag either when exiting, because of the violent turbulence from the 200 MPH speed and the dirty aerodynamic configuration of the plane, or that he lost the bag during opening shock. I’m assuming that he lost the bag because of the difficulty he would have had trying to tie the bag onto his body or the harness. I don’t think he, or any other person working alone, could have tied it sufficiently. So, I'm assuming that the bag itself was tied closed very well but he had considerable difficulty getting it tied to himself. I tried to get into DB's mind. While in there, I determined that he would be overly 'protective' of the money. After all, that's what the whole gig was about: the money. He tied the bag of money with one of the two the roughly 14 foot lengths of suspension line. He'd tie the bag as absolutely tight as he possibly could with many turns around the bag and thus making the bag and the money into a very tight package. That tight package would have voids within because of the multiple packs of money. The voids would hold air for some unknown time and allow the “package” to float for a considerable time. The bank bag manufacturer thought the bag tied tightly as described would float for hours, probably even days, until becoming waterlogged and finally slipping beneath the surface and then slowly sinking deeper into the water...but being carried ever farther downstream. Even after the bag finally became submerged it would still be intact. It could bang along the stream/river bottoms for years. It could get stuck in debris, branches or between rocks. But it would still be intact and move further downstream with flooding…only to get stuck again…and then to continue on its way downstream. After many years, the bag would finally tear open from the canvas rotting…maybe only a hole big enough for a few pack of money to get out…maybe the whole bag would eventually unload into the water from turbulence. Never the less, somewhere, potentially VERY far downstream from where the bag originally entered a tributary of the Columbia, a pack of money ended up on a bank of the Columbia and was found years later by young Mr. Ingram. The bag manufacturer asked me if the money found was in “money sleeves” or wrapped with rubber bands. I told him rubber bands and asked what significance that was. His answer was that money sleeves were made of paper strips and held with glue. He said the glue would be dissolved very quickly; rubber bands could hold money for years—if not subjected to direct sunlight which caused rather rapid degrading of the rubber. [The sun sure dried lots of rubber bands when I was jumping.] He said rubber bands in water could last a very long time. He thought that money wrapped with rubber bands and contained within a canvas bag and wrapped with parachute cord could last in tact for many years. Of all the possible ways the money could have ended up where it did, the above seems to be one of the best explanations. Therefore, Cooper’s point of exit could be anywhere within the web of tributaries leading to the point of the found money on the bank of the Columbia River. This area is probably hundreds, if not a few thousand, square miles of territory. Protected money, wet or not, will last a very long time if there is not physical abrasion of the money. Given all of the above, even if totally plausible and even if totally correct and representative of what actually happened, the next question must be asked. “So what?” Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Me too!!! Come on, Jo, time to show us what'cha got. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I made my first five sport jumps static line from a helicopter in 1960 on Sicily DZ at Ft. Bragg, NC while a member of the XVIII Airborne SPC. What a total thrill to have no prop blast, no apparent forward airspeed and to make a small step sideways out into space. I can't take time to look for my logbook but I think the aircraft was a H-21. Banana shaped with two huge blades. Noisy as hell but very fun to jump. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I'm sure they do but my illustrated dictionary shows a picture of my dictionary next to your dictionary and mine is almost twice as big as yours. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I did it using the Word "Insert-Symbol" menu and then "Copy/Paste" into the DZ.com thread. You can Copy the symbol from my post and paste it into your posts. There are quite a few misconceptions about copyrights. Take a look at this: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html Remember that this is an international forum and therefore copyright law gets more confusing. I've been unable to find an official statement regarding who owns our words on DZ.com. I disagree with Quade's comment which is why I posted my two-line poem. By the way, my dictionary is bigger than airtwardo's dictionary. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Quade did it I am not D. B. Cooper. Quade did it. © 2008 Bernard Sayers Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Hmmm. This is an interesting point. Quade, can you clarify for us who owns the material we post on dropzone.com? Does D4DR Media own what we write or does the person posting own the copyright? On Slashdot.org, a much older and thousands of posters larger than this one, they have a notice that I'll reproduce here for everyone's edification: Could you, Quade, look into this or maybe get an official comment from Sangiro? I don't want to post my solution to the DB mystery without knowing if I own my words...or someone else owns them. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I didn't think you could count to 1000. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

And I don't much care to tip toe around this thread worrying that my humor will be misconstrued as personal attacks by our moderator. So...I'm done posting here and I've decided to not start a DB-centered website. I am out of here. But don't forget: I am not DB Cooper. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Since I am largely guilty of fanning the flames of the war that got our DB Cooper thread locked with my "whuffo" remark I've decided to create a website for just this purpose. I checked the availability of domain names and found a few I liked which are available and I'll be setting up something on Yahoo groups from my own machine in my office. I'll put a clicky for a direct link to the website in my signature block ASAP. Quade, I strongly disagree with your handling of the situation. The whole idea of moderated groups with draconian rules such as those here on DZ.com flies in the face of everything I know about our wonderful sport. I hang with skydivers all the time and all of my close friends are people who jump out of airplanes and value freedom over anal control. What harm is there if we lob obscenities at each other in SCREAMING BOLD CAPS and smiley faces? None. If people don't like the thread they won't read it. If people don't like what I write or don't appreciate my sense of humor they can not read what I write. I happen to find the writing style of some of the new posters arrogant and kookie. I ignore their writings. I happen to find the conspiracy angle to this mystery the kookiest of all. I ignore those posters. I care not how many jumps you have; how many initials you have after your name; the size of your bank balance; your sexual orientation or your skin color. And if you can't take a joke, heavy personal ribbing or don't like being called a kook, stop the whining: you chose to walk into this biker's bar. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Look at airtwardo's picture folks. It's an artist's rendering of a relative of his who was found hanging in a tree some years after DB jumped. I can see why he wants to distract us. It's the old "Move along folks, nothing to see here" routine. He wants DZOs to not check those twenty dollar bills he's been spending on jumps for so many years. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I wasn't addressing whether you are wanted here. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Absolutely not!! And I apologize if my jumper humor came across that way. I wrote that after reading post after post by non-jumpers and thought it kind of weird for that to be the case. You guys have added quite a bit of information and reasoning to this mystery. But you've also made some blunders which have been quite funny. As with any discipline we have our own jargon which many of the whuffos are not getting. Please...accept my apology I meant no offense. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Talk about hijackings! Don't you get the impression that this thread has been hijacked by a bunch of whuffos? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I transitioned from fun jumper into JM/I and DZO and then gypsy jump pilot. It's hard to go back making an occasional jump. My daughter wants to jump when she's 18 which is in three years. I'll get current by then so I can jump with her. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I shudda known! If anyone was going to break the air to air code it would be you. I got snatched up by my girlfriend who was flying a J-3 with a banner hook. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

The phrase "once the weight was removed" really doesn't make sense to me. Unless my old brain is remembering physics incorrectly, air pressure is based on the cube of the velocity. At 200 mph the amount of pressure on the airstair without Cooper's weight or the sled weight would push the stairs back into the plane. Mechanical advantage by being on the very bottom of the steps could be enough to push the steps down. I called a 727 pilot friend of mine who flies for DHL. When I told him of Ckret's pictures with the sled on the steps he said, "Makes no sense to me." He explained that the stairs are moved up and down by the "B" hydraulic system mentioned. Hydraulics move the steps in both directions. Possibly--he didn't know the answer to this--the stair system was modified after Cooper's jump around the time the Cooper vane was added. If the pressure bump isn't the signature of his departure all the other issues such as opening altitude and wind speeds to tie the landing into the money location are pretty meaningless. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

7500 Not a secret by any means. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

OK!!! Coming from one of real Olde Men of the sky this makes me feel good. Jeesh...you maybe older than I am. My daughter will be 15 in a month. The local DZ says she can't jump until 18 for legal reasons even though the state allows jumping by 16 year olds. So I have 3 years to wait. I'm gonna be filming that jump for sure. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

In the event that you folks haven't had enough stuff to read about DB... I searched for "BTG VOR" on Google and found this: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44859&highlight=db+cooper I'm passing this along because I haven't seen a link within this thread to the material although one person mentioned "websleuths" My apology if you've all seen it. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I disagree. We have a very serious reason for getting into heated arguments and that reason is our quest for facts which could lead to the truth about one of the more fascinating mysteries of our time. Similarly, we definately do not have any serious reason to treat each other disrespectfully...or meanly...simply because we're shielded from each other by a net of anonymous bits and bytes. This thread is the second most popular in SH&T after the one started by steve1 named "Scary stories from the old days?" Quade, in my estimation your personal thoughts on the DB mystery are just as appropriate and valid as mine or anyone else's. I'm bothered that your prejuidice regarding the issue may be interfering with your moderator responsibility. Look at the numbers: steve1 started the "Scary stories" thread on Nov 6, 2002 125778 views and 884 replies. skyjack71 started the DB thread on Nov 21, 2006 64084 views and 1432 replies. Steve's thread was started five years ago; Jo's thread roughly one year ago. Jo's thread has half as many views and almost twice as many replies in roughly 20% of the time. I'd like to know what statistics exist for "Most popular threads on DZ.com" if any one has them. It would be instructive to see where this DB thread fits into the scheme of things. As long as we are civil toward one another, what difference does it make how stupid or trivial the topic is to you? Since you have told us that no chance exits for the creation of Subject of DB's own, can we start multiple threads within SH&T with Subjects such as: The DB Cooper Mystery: History and Background; The DB Cooper Mystery: Reference Links; The DB Cooper Mystery: What we know from the evidence; The DB Cooper Mystery: Speculation and Comments Doing something like what I suggest would allow those of us fascinated by the topic to interact more meaningfully. Would you approve something such as what I list, above? Finally, it always makes me smile when these personality issues break out in this thread. It makes me smile because we--the skydivers of the world--have, in fact, hijacked this thread completely in violation of "The Rules" here. Jo specifically states in her very first post: "I don't want to debate theories about how the crime was done and who else may have done it. All I want is to find information about sky jumping and any information I might be able to find about Duane Lorin Weber and any of his AKA's." We have totally hijacked the thread. Which seems fitting, given the subject. Please ask the powers that be if my idea for multiple thread subjects will burden your servers or destroy the integrity and goal of DropZone.com. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I'll say too much. Way too much. Much of the evidence points to DB having little or no jump experience and probably no rigging experience. I have about 300 jumps using the NB6 or similar Army counterpart. All of those jumps were with D-rings for reserve attach points to the harness as well as a belly-band to secure the reserve. Anyone here who made an extended freefall with an NB6 and without the belly-band very securely attached can vouch for how the reserve flops around. Now, imagine using pieces of 550 cord to tie on the reserve AND the bag of money. Since we are assuming he was a low jump or none jumper person, and non-rigger, he wouldn't know how to start securing that mess...let allow doing a decent job. The scenario I see is him stumbling down the stairs with a rat's nest of suspension line not holding a damn thing together. The "pressure bump" we've read about was really his ass smacking the stairs as he tumbled out into the prop blast...while the money, the reserve and the briefcase are torn from his body. I can't imagine him having his act together enough to pull the ripcord. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I can confirm that ATC radar can pick up jumpers at a distance of 30--50 miles. During the early 1970s and into the 80s I often communicated with ATC while I was flying jumpers. In some cases I talked to controllers at NAFEC near Atlantic City and at other times and DZs I talked to controllers at Dover AFB. The technology available when I was flying was the same as when DB jumped. When I first started flying jumpers I was under the impression that ATC couldn't see the jumpers because they didn't have enough metal. As 377 states in his post, all sorts of objects that aren't metal give a decent return. I noticed that controllers who were new on the job got a big kick out of seeing the jumpers and telling how many there were. Some times they'd call me and say something like, "OK...I think I saw three that time." They were almost always correct. Now, that said, I'd guess that the controllers on duty during DB's jump couldn't get a return on him because of the lousey weather. As I understand radar technology, rain plays havoc with resolution. That and the very transient nature of DB's jump would make picking out his return rather difficult. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Personally, I hope no one ever solves it. Never, ever. In bad times of economic depression the sheeple need a hero to keep their mind off reality. We need DB to for ever remain a mystery. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I am having difficulty reading the names on the map but it's obviously some very difficult terrain. Making a night jump from 10K on a 26ft conical into that terrain with the winds of a storm pushing the jumper along would be a definite adventure. What is the name of the lake at the top right? What counties are indicated? Clark and Cowlitz? What is the name of the river south of the roadway? I'm asking these questions in an attempt to correlate something into Maps. Some sort of map "key" must exist somewhere in the record. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper