Guru312

I'm kidding, but he isn't. There actually is a font style known as "Cooper Bold". If I'm not mistaken, DB created that font shortly after buying himself new shoes to replace the ones he lost during the jump. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Much to my own amazement, I think I found DB Cooper and maybe what he did with the money. He actually had the balls to name a road and a company after himself. Did he live to start an electrical supply company...and name it after himself?! Maybe so...he uses his own picture on their boxes!!! My friend, Brenda, would call it real chutzpah. See for yourself: http://berniesayers.com/Electric%20DB.htm Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Actually, I don't *really* think it means anything. But some people actually do. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11:11_%28numerology%29 Given all of the conspiracy theory around here, I thought Ckret's date and time of posting to Jo was very conspiratorial. Just like everything else. Like, why did you put *your* suspect number at the end of *your* post? It's all connected to this: "Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." Right? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Our resident agent wrote the above at 11:11 on Friday the 13th. OMG, What does THAT mean??!! Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Yes! It certainly does make sense. It is brilliant, actually. I have 2000 hours flying jumpers with about 1000 hours flying for a heavily first jump oriented DZ on the Eastern Shore of Maryland known as Pelicanland. I was always expecting a student to freak-out and grab onto me screaming, "I'm not leaving this airplane!" As I've written, I put a 28 into an NB-6 because I didn't want a potentially hard landing under a 26. The more difficult hard pull was a bonus for protecting me from the nutty first time grabbers. I would guess that Cossy or the pilot for whom he packed the rig would want the larger, easier landing canopy for the same reason I would. His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right. Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out. My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it. OK...what's next? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Well, duh! Obviously number 312. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I'd say Nitro is correct for pilots who aren't jumpers. Depending upon the type of emergency, I wouldn't hesitate to jump. I think most non-jumping pilots would rather not. I mentioned a month or more ago that the rig I wore when flying jumpers was a 28ft canopy in a NB-6 container. I knew the pull would be hard if I had to use it; I packed it. The number of crazy things that can go wrong on jump run are many. Maybe my reasoning was flawed back then but I wanted a rig that some crazed student couldn't pull easily by mistake. [My guess is that's Cossey's DZ had a rig like that for the same reason.] I had a number of situations where students got out of the plane, onto the step, and then decided that they'd rather not jump. Getting a student in that state of mind--very terrified--back into the plane safely wasn't fun for the J/M, for me or anyone else in the plane. If Cooper wasn't a jumper, as I don't think he was, he probably knew very little about the importance of cinching down- very tightly --the leg and chest straps. Given that I believe he couldn't effectively secure "the package" to himself single-handedly, he probably left the plane with the harness way too loose and 20 pounds of money beating the living crap out him as he was tossed around violently by the wind on exit. Imagine getting hit in the face with 20 pounds of money which hit you because of that 200 mph of wind. It wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that he got knocked out the money bag...before it took it's own path to the ground. Every time I post to this thread I keep asking myself, "Why am I bothering to hash all this over and over? Don't I have a life?" Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I concur. If I were an FBI agent... I'd contact Brian Ingram and ask him what, if anything, he found near or under the money. Although, had I been Brian, I would be yelling to my dad, "Hey, Dad, come over here there's a whole bunch of money!!" I sure as hell wouldn't be taking notice of anything *but* the money. Never the less, if Brian told an FBI agent, back then or now, anything about the area around the money...such as describing old suspension line or old pieces of tattered cloth...a VERY big part of this puzzle would be in place with many questions answered. And...we will have narrowed the search area for hardware, and possibly harness webbing, to only a few thousand square miles up river to the point where the aircraft course passes over, or near by, a tributary. If I were an FBI agent... Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Finally!! You guys have come around to my perspective on this issue. As I've written previously, I spoke with the owner of the bag company who probably manufactured the bag. He couldn't find invoices back further than the late 1970s although he did find invoices from Seattle First bank. You write, above, using the word "rope" which is technically incorrect because Cooper tied the bag with nylon suspension line. Prior posts referring to information provided by our agent-in-residence indicate that Cooper cut two lengths of cord about 15' long. Nylon suspension line of this type "probably" has a breaking strength of 550 pounds. Plus, nylon is very long lasting in its strength...unless subjected to long-term sunlight. It is my speculation that Cooper used all of one length of cord to tie the bag. Depending upon the exact measurements of the bag and money, he could rather easily create a very secure bundle which would totally contain the money--even without rigger skills and knot tying ability--which could survive a terminal impact. This being because of the tensile strength of the cord and the "giving" nature of the money within the bag. It is my further speculation that Cooper used the other length of cord to tie the bag to himself and the harness. The act of *securely* tying a 20+ pound bag of bulky canvas to himself without help is damned near impossible. I can't imagine how he would begin to tie the bag to the harness. A *real* pain the ass to do...let alone do well enough that the "package" would survive the exit into the 200mph wind. Given that Cooper was even attempting this ridiculous caper, I'm of the opinion that he was not a jumper, rigger or person knowing much about jumping. I've done some really crazy shit in my life but I wouldn't consider doing what he did in the way he did it. The difficulty of tying the bag to himself would mean the money bag would be very loose. The shape, placement of the bag and poor tie job is a recipe for losing it either upon exit in the turbulence or upon opening. If he opened, which I don't believe he did. My speculation is the fully tied bag survived the exit, fall and impact. It somehow found its way into a tributary of the water at Tena Bar. From my discussion with the bag manufacturer he speculated that the bag could remain in water for years before finally beginning to disintegrate. Disintegration of the canvas bag would occur long before the nylon suspension line would disintegrate. By the way, I am still not DB Cooper. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I hope to hell that when "the Feds" bang on my door...not they have any reason, of course!!...that they have half your sense of humor. Thanks so much for putting up with us. And I mean that sincerely. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I thought you'd never ask! Yes, there are circumstances when this would be done. I did it myself for 5-6 years when flying jumpers in my Cessna 182. Lots of crazy stuff happens in airplanes from which people are going to jump. I packed the rig myself on purpose. [I have a chest and back senior rigger rating.] I wanted a larger canopy, a tight and rather thin container and a "more secure" container. Over the years, I heard/read about many in-flight emergencies or very bad accidents where ripcords got pulled---mostly belly mounted reserve openings, I admit. My reasoning was that I'd rather have a hard pull after a statistically unlikely emergency event than I would with some freaked out person grabbing at me as they crawled out the door. Packing a 28 ft canopy into an NB6 container was slow, difficult work but worth the effort...at least in my mind at the time. Lots of stuffing and poking of the material with a wooden packing stick. My guess is that Cossey picked up a rig used by one of the jump pilots at the DZ and included it with the rigs sent to Cooper. I doubt I'm the only pilot/rigger who packed an emergency rig that way. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Good question. I thought one of them looked an awful lot like the FBI sketch of DB that we got from Ckret. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

No, Sluggo, he wants to distract us from the name he has given the "doctor-killer Bonanza" picture which any OLD computer gaming nut, such as myself, would recognize as *the* magick word used in early computer Adventure gaming. If a player entered XYZZY at the appropriate time/place in early Adventure games they got teleported to the banks of the Columbia river where the players can choose to pick up $195,000 in $20s, the gun that killed MLK, the Holy Grail, three pairs of Britney's underwear or Duane Weber's first jump certificate. If a player picks up the proper item, those following the DB Cooper thread are released from DB purgatory and allowed to go on with their lives. If a players picks up the wrong item they are condemned to bicker about exit points, float time and how many times DB picked his nose while in the bathroom. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Thanks for consolidating, better than I've done over many months, the more plausible aspects of this case. Exit point, live or die or who DB really is can't be determined with the scant evidence available at the present time. Simple as that. DB tied the money bag with 550 cord. Money was found. Occam's Razor helps me think that the tied money bag finally, after many years, deteriorated and packs of money entered the water without the protection of the tied canvas bag. A boy found some of the money. We know almost nothing beyond the above. I keep wondering why I read this dang thread 2-3 times a day!! Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Me too! And, like you guys, I've been following the caper since a few hours after it happened. And, like you guys, I disagree totally with Quade's handling of the threads. His disdain for the subject matter isn't a sufficient reason to handle moderation the way he has. He wasn't even born when DB jumped. Those of us who were in the DZ business back then know what DB did for us...both in law enforcement hassle and in new customers. Kids! They just don't appreciate nostalgia for us olde farts. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I found the bag company and a family member/owner that probably manufactured the bag. I say probably because the company records he could find didn't go back far enough. We spoke for nearly an hour. He asked to not be identified by name or company, but, given who you are and your interest, he may speak with you. If you send me a PM I'll pass along the contact information for him. In our conversation, we discussed many possible scenarios. One which impressed me the most was the "money tied tightly with parachute suspension line in a water-repellent canvas bag" didn't have to float the entire time to reach the find-point. He and I both believe that money wrapped securely within such a bag could last for years in the river. Some folks here, particularly Safe_PLF and probably Sluggo, are holding to the "it has to float" theory. Needless to say, I think otherwise. As I've repeated, repeatedly, I think DB tied the money bag *very* securely into a tight bundle with one 14 ft length of line; he tied the bundle to himself with the other length of line. He lost the bag either upon exit or opening shock. I think most of the people following this thread are making an error of reasoning by working from the "pressure bump" to the found-money-point. I think the money-point is our only *real* known and pressure bump is meaningless in context. Considering the condition of the recently found parachute, I'm thinking that DB's rig, with his bones nearby or not, could be "out there" somewhere. But so what? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I had a student and very good friend, Harvey Soss--Herd member extraordinaire!-- who jumped the Eiffel Tower and a number of other places, I seem to remember him saying he did the Leaning Tower but I'm not sure. There can't be too many people to jump either one of those structures. I know that he jumped Angel Falls because he gave me a picture that you can see here: http://www.aicommand.com/SossAtAngelFalls.htm Soss died while riding his Harley after being hit by a drunk driver. As far as I know, he never got hurt BASE or skydiving. I looked at your fatality list, and it got me to thinking: Is the fatality rate from skydiving and BASE jumping greater than the fatality rate of auto/cycle accidents for those people who BASE/skydive? I bet driving is statistically more "dangerous." Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I just posted an autographed photo of Owen Quinn's jump off the World Trade Center South Tower: [URL]http://berniesayers.com/Owen%20Quinn%20South%20Tower.htm[/URL] After my friend sent me the picture I Googled Owen's name and found out that he made the jump to bring attention to the plight of the unemployed. Can anyone comment on anything about his jump? I found hundreds of pages about DB but very little about Owen. Any stories to tell regarding the jump, the planning and execution and his punishment? How did he smuggle that rig into the building? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Well, duh! Those of us following this caper after all these years--I've been doing so since a few hours after it was reported on the news--should feel damned lucky to have Ckret posting and contributing at all! Jo obviously has some issues with how the FBI has dealt with her but Ckret isn't anyone's researcher or gopher to uncover "stuff" dealing with this DB Cooper mystery. Let's be a bit more practical, and maybe even considerate, with our resident FBI agent's involvement. And don't forget, this is *not* an open FBI case. Larry Carr is just a guy as fascinated by the case as the rest of us who happens to be an FBI agent. In short: let's be real and practical about all of it. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I started this thread dealing with night tandem: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1637282;search_string=night%20tandem;#1637282 Given USPA's position against night tandem, I doubt any wuffos will be riding a night tandem from a 727. As a money maker, night tandems from a 727 could work for a very short while but I doubt too many non-jumpers would want to endure the exit more than once. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

This has been discussed before. This will not happen. If we gave the topic any MORE publicity, it wouldn't need its own forum, it would need its own cable news channel. As for it generating more actual members of the skydiving community, uh, gee, maybe we should get the USPA to start a forum. No! We should convince Sangrio that what he needs is a moderator who has a clue. Every single view of the DB Cooper thread--either thread!-- is WONDERFUL for skydiving. Every single view here in this DB Copper thread--by wuffos particularly!--represents a person who could spend money in our sport. Safe, Sluggo and all the wuffos---who choose not to jump at this point in their lives, may decide to jump---and that's good for parachuting. Every DB-curious wuffo who visits *here* is a potential buck for a DZO, even it's only the sale of a hot dog, a soda and a T-shirt. Quade, didn't you read my posts or my essay about my DB advertisement and how many students I got because of the buzz? I got hundreds of new students because of DB Cooper. My crazy DB ad stayed on the bulletin board at Ripcord for over four years because it helped all of us in the DZ business. DB Cooper was good for us DZOs in 1971 and DB Cooper can only be good for DZOs in 2008. To NOT create a "All About DB Cooper" subject forum within "Skydiving" here on DropZone.com is counter-productive for the entire community. And Quade, your comment about creating a USPA-sponsored DB Cooper forum--which you clearly meant in jest--is actually a pretty smart idea. Some enterprising web-savvy person at USPA headquarters should add a DB Cooper section to the USPA web site containing sections on the site for FAQ, History, Facts and wild-assed speculations. Sangrio, please think about doing this. It can only make things better around here. This the Internet! The more page views here, in this DB Cooper thread... the better for the entire jumping community. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Thank you for expressing what I've been figuring out how to say for a number of weeks. In my estimation, Quade has been overly harsh, critical and should not be chatting us up--and reprimanding us at the same time. The concept of "moderation" in a forum such as this offends my Libertarian senses and really pisses off the renegade in me. Funniest thing of all is how much these kids are willing to accept being "moderated" and controlled. I never thought I'd have to play the Senior Card to get more freedom. I certainly identify with your perspective...and our collective history of the DB Cooper event. Being a DZO during the Cooper era was kind of a pain. I'm sure glad you wrote these words. Thanks! Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Neither am I but I wish I was so I could admit to being Ol' DB and you guys can get on with your lives. My advertisement "Parachute Lessons for Hijacking and other fun" brought me huge numbers of people who wanted to be taught how to jump out of an airplane by DB Cooper. I admit that I played the gig for quite some time. I had newspaper reporters baffled as to "was I or wasn't I". It was fun...pretending. My point: people seem to want to believe DB lived. People allow emotions to cloud and, essentially, set the tone for what they believe. This subject and the comments made about it prove how much people believe with very little or no evidence what ever. And I'm guilty of fascination with the subject and the people who believe. If I answer that I was an adult in 1971 when I wrote the DB Hijacking advertisement will you explain for us how our age could have ANY significance to the issue? Oh, by the way, I just checked again; I'm still not DB Cooper. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

You keep focusing on "float time" for reasons that I don't understand. The bag needs to stay together as it protects the money inside as it bangs along the bottom. It has years to travel to some point "relatively" close to the Ingram point. I'm really at a loss as to why the bag needs to float. Welcome back, Ckret, your presence is appreciated. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I go away for a weekend skiing with my daughter and come back to find people still "arguing" about DB...and mentioning my "research" but misunderstanding my conjecture in the process. Regarding the above quote: I think that as a non-jumper you are misunderstanding what we jumpers are saying regarding DB's exit. The turbulence forces involved during a high-speed, aerodynamically dirty aircraft exit would be extremely difficult to compute. The forces act in three dimensions and could be described as what you'd expect if you jumped into the wall of a tornado. One can not pick a Calculus I formula, punch in airspeed, and expect to determine pounds of pressure for a situation such as the one before us. Doing so is way too simplistic not representative of the situation. IMHO. My hypothesis is that he used a 14 ft length of suspension line to tie the bank bag into a tight bundle. My money bag manufacturer source said a bag that size would have handles to make carrying the bag easy. He also said it would proably be 10 or 12 oz canvas and most likely treated with a water repellent. Remember, he found invoices in his files that Seattle First National Bank had purchased from him but there were no invoices still in existence since 1971. He said Seattle First purchased bags of that size--which is very common--with handles and with zippers and some with just handles but most had zippers. He discussed and agreed in speculation that DB's bag would most likely be water-repellent, have two handles and probably have a zipper. He found it unlikely that a bank in the NorthWest wouldn't have a zipper and water repellent to keep the money dry in that rainy invironment for interbank transfer or movement of money outside a bank. Intrabank transfer is usually done with a none zippered bag. Personally, I find it very odd that the bag wouldn't have a zipper. Think about it folks: a dark, windy and rainy night...and they send $200,000 in 20s in an open bag to a hijacker with a bomb in his briefcase?! Can't you just hear the conversation among all the authorities, "How about if we really piss off this jerk with the bomb and send his ransom in one of them no-zipper and no-repellent bags so he'll end up with wet soggy money? Call that bank manager and ask him to send a bag without zippers instead of what they'd normally use." I find it inconceivable that the money was not protected with a zipper...for water and theft protection. It's entirely too easy to drop money out of an open bag. Can you just imagine an average day among money couriers: "Gee, I'm sorry boss, we hit a bump and five of them danged open, nonzip bags dumped out on the truck floor. We probably missed a couple of packets when we was a pickin' them up; that's why a few packs was missin'. Don't be too upset. The bags fall over and the money pours out every time we make a delivery on that dang mountain road! Oh, and we're sorry about all those wet hundreds from yesterday. That was one hell of a downpour." Any bank logistics manager in the Northwest who distributed money outside of the bank in un-zippered bags would be looking for a job. IMHO. Continuing...When DB gets the bag and parachutes he uses one 14 ft piece of line and ties the bag into a tight bundle. As I figure it, considering the volumes of money and bag volume, he has some folding and tieing of the corners and sides. Not a terribly difficult thing to do. Most Americans know how to wrap Chrismas gifts and that's just what he's wrapping up: A Christmas gift. [He's acquiring his gift two days before Black Friday.] 14 feet of line gives him enough for a few turns around the bag. One length of cord is enough for him to tie a reasonably secure and tight package. It doesn't have to be water proof! What it has to be is securely tied. It does not have to float but if he folds the top and cinches the cord around the fold, the bag will float, and keep out water for quite some time. The money bag man thought a bag securely wrapped could last quite a few days. But...it doesn't need to be water tight. It doesn't need to float forever. It needs to stay tied and bang along the river, moved by the current. Heavy rains and flooding could easily move the bag many miles over many years; 14 feet of 550 lb breaking strength material will keep it closed for many years. Then, sometime later, the canvas finally splits open and the packs pour out. One packet finds it way to the river bank for the boy to find...and a few bills make it to eBay. Did I say the money bag doesn't have to float for the entire time? Synopsis: Tying the money bag securely as a package is fairly easy. Tying the bag securely enough to prevent it being ripped from his body is very difficult. The money bag doesn't have to float for years. The money in the bag, although saturated, is protected from physical degradation by the strength of the tied bag. When the bag finally disintegrates, many of the rubber-bound packets tumble out and one finally ends up on the banks of the Columbia. Years later, total strangers waste countless hours discussing the situation. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper