Pendragon

Oh absolutely - of course the wind could also be moving upwards. How else could I ridge-soar in my hang glider? However, you need a hill in order to deflect the wind and cause it to move upwards (or rising air in a thermal, or wave effects [marked by lenticular clouds])... ... but we're not talking about swooping the pond in the middle of hills on a particularly thermic day when a cross-valley breeze has set up nice wave too. In general, we're thinking about fairly level, unobstructed fields - and that's because we're considering the aerodynamics of the wing, rather than what the airmass is doing relative to the ground. Wind will absolutely have an effect on swooping; the point of the set up, the perspective of the ground during the turn etc. It's just that, aerodynamically, it doesn't make any difference. Wind does not turn a canopy or keep it in a dive any longer. The initiation altitude should be the same (if you do everything the same). I don't consider either myself or anyone else who's contributed to this thread as a self-appointed guru. I just think the quality and logic of any answers and/or questions will bear through. If someone has a good argument against what I have just said, please let that person stand forward and write - I would like to hear what they have to say.

***I want to join this sport to be free, and not get sucked into politics... Starting to skydive to avoid politics? Now there's a thought. Might be in for a bit of a shock then, once you've qualified. Now, there's this story ... -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Ahh, so you've had an "experience" with Jane. She's actually okay - sometimes. You'll soon find that there's a bunch of characters hanging around this sport. When are you booked into Headcorn for your static line course? I'll drop by and say hello if I'm around. PM me if you want to chat about it beforehand; what to expect etc. I know most of the CSIs there (Category System Instructors - they teach the static line courses). You'll have a good time (even if you do have to leap around like a starfish for a while ) Richard -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I think what's happening is that, due to the wind pushing you back, the arc looks much steeper than in nil wind conditions. As a result, you may be tempted to tighten and quicken your turn, reducing the amount of altitude loss. I would assert that it is your interpretation of how the set-up is progressing (am I too low etc?) and subsequent reactions that cause you to make inputs that reduce the overall altitude lost, rather than anythng directly to do with wind action on a canopy. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I used to think similar - but the point the guys are trying to make is that you just don't know how you're going to feel at the exit point - and that makes all the difference. I am a pretty awesome tracker out of a plane, yet on my first terminal BASE jump, I didn't do as well as I'd expected I would have done. Why? I was nervous, and stiff as a board. Your ability to fly well in a wingsuit stems from your confidence in one, and your knowledge that you can easily be stable, fly well... and be relaxed. This won't translate straight away into a BASE environment. It is quite something to see that wall rushing behind you!

When the original poster works out why Jaap made that comment, and why their initial post was imprudent, then they might be ready. To the original poster: you might want to travel a bit. You'll get much better answers to these questions (and also ones you don't yet know to ask) in person from an experienced BASE jumper. Show some initative, resourcefulness and dedication to it and you might get somewhere. It's not for everyone - and it's quite right you should be deterred. You have to really want to do this. "Maybe" and "try" aren't quite good enough. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

The "best" DZ in the UK is the one where your mates are at - the guys/gals you jump with. Solos get boring quickly... even if you only get 4 in during the weekend, 4 good, quality ones are far better than 8 solos. Each DZ has its own positives and negatives. I actually get quite tired of hearing others slag off dropzones they've never jumped at (or maybe had a bad experience at years ago when they turned up without BPA membership, an out-of-date reserve, too-small-a-canopy with an "attitude" to match and wondered why they got a less than welcoming reception). My "home" DZ is Headcorn; I learnt there. It p155es me off from time-to-time, but you'll find everyone has something they hate about their DZ. I've done some good jumps there, and received helpful advice. It does have a Let410. If you're into 4-way there's far worse. I like Weston quite a bit - again I know people - and occasionally drop in on Sibson, which seems to be where most of the freeflyers hang out - the ones that don't make it up to Hibs that is. I'd go to Black Knights for scenery and hospitality (if it wasn't so far from my house!) Maybe I'll even get to jump at Langar. Whatever floats your boat. [wingsuit training available at selected dz's] That is all. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

If you're interested, look at: http://www.pilotnotes.co.uk/Flight_theory2_HTML/flight_screen.htm ...under the "Drag" and "Polar Curves" chapters On the polar curve: don't worry about lift/sink, but draw lines from the origin (nil wind), -10 mph (tailwind) and +10 mph (headwind) and see where the intersect with the curve. Min sink is the highest point on the curve. What you'll find is that max glide is ALWAYS faster than min sink. Also, there comes a point on a parachute's polar curve that it goes pretty much vertical (small increase in airspeed dramatically increases sink rate) - bit like pulling down hard on front risers to the point you don't get anything out of the wing. You still end up going straight down, and not improving glide. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I voted for a Mamba - it's easily got the most powerful flare of any non x-braced canopy out there. (I actually own a Xfire2, which I love - it opens beautifully and also allows me to get back from the odd long spot too... ) but since the question was regarding swooping... I bet the Katana wins the vote though - too many people out there think PD and nothing else -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

You're right to think that forward speed increases - but the way parachutes are trimmed, "glide" (as it would be in nil wind conditions) falls right off. You really degrade the parachute's performance. Best speed for glide depends on the wing's polar curve and the component of wind velocity in the direction you are travelling Example 1: if you're facing into wind and wind speed = canopy flying speed at full drive, you would be going straight down. If you pull on the front risers a little. descent rate increases but you make some forward penetration. By definition, you have just improved your glide. Example 2: if you're on a long spot but going slightly downwind back to the DZ you would want to stay in the moving airmass as long as possible, as the wind will carry you back to the DZ. Consequently, rear-risers (or a little brake) is going to give you the best glide as it brings the canopy closer to min sink. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

From a mixture of my own and others' experiences, I would concur with that.

I know of someone who had similar issues with a Sabre2 in the UK, again one of the very early versions. It was sent back and a replacement issued. I believe the line trim was the problem. I haven't heard of anything like that since, only satisfied customers. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I'd also like to point out that the Sabre2 is a more advanced canopy than a Sabre1 in it's handling. I'd even venture to say that it is tuned to be the highest performance in its class (comparable canopies being Safire2 and Pilot, amongst others). Turns are faster on the Sabre2 over the original Sabre, and the recovery arc is also different. Lightly loaded (

I can believe that. The V1 (and V2) are immensely stable suits IMO. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Nathaniel is cool - and knows what he is talking about. He was at the Flock & Dock 2.0. Bigger suits can actually be more stable, it depends how they are balanced. Bigger - and wider - leg wings (relative to the arm wings) make for stability (think about riding a bicycle; slowly it's unstable etc) so Skyflyer 1 bad, Vampire 1 good. If someone has >50 wingsuit jumps, never has issues at pull-time, flys steady (without radical movements, washing in/out etc), nails exits and barrel rolls and consistently flys a good pattern then, like others, I can't see any reason (from a safety aspect) why it would be unreasonable to "upsize" However, it depends why you want to. I have a V-1; I have just taken receipt of an Acro. If I'm flocking, I'll have more than enought forward speed in the Acro. V-2 is a really fast suit - and is quite strenuous. It's made to cover as much horizontal distance as possible. It's also really hard work to fly. Is that what you want? That's not a judgement BTW, just a question you should ask youself. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

... which is was I said (just didn't spell out the short period of time - I thought it was obvious from saying "half-transitions") You know as well as I that having inexperienced freefliers trying to hold head-down for sustained periods of time without any form of reference is a really bad idea. Don't encourage anyone. I agree with you, this is safe. Again, totally sensible (and discussed previously). Richard -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

You see I thought you had to buy the patch. Doh! Duped again... -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

See: "Relativistic effects on canopy flight and the importance of sushi", Dr R Parkin et al., J. Am. Bolcks. (2) 2006 115-199 -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Matt - you're just special. One of a kind. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I'm the doctor. Ted, your humour is like a fine wine - it just gets better with age. /[thread hijack] PS six smilies! -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

The same way you get all great things in the US - by paying money. (Cancer Chris was handing out patches - but you had to buy the patch for, $20 wasn't it?) Can't come... I'm already going to be in the famous Swiss valley -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Who cares? Buy a V-2! -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I only ventured into turbulence as it was raised. You're right, the effects are different and are a deviation from this thread. Turbulence can result in loss of wing pressureisation and increased descent rate, but that's got nothing to do with normal flight. Think you got it right there! -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Gusts do affect wings - you wouldn't have paragliders tucking in turbulence otherwise! In a stable airmass, with you drifting with it, it doesn't matter what direction you are facing (balloon example above). However, thermic gusts, for instance, will cause an acceleration on the canopy faster than the person (relate this back to throwing a piece of tissue from a pylon - it gets a more horizontal separation as it accelerates to the airmass' velocity faster than the BASE jumper will). Given a little time, the pilot of the canopy will catch up, but not immediately. All of this is experienced by "bounciness" on landing approaches when it's thermic. You are right, however, to assert that in a steady state the absolute wind velocity does not make any difference! Regarding initiation altitudes, I wonder if it has something to do with level of control input required? For example, in nil wind, you will need a longer toggle stroke in order to flare than in high wind, as you seek to set the ground speed to zero which is merely to have enough speed in an opposing direction to the wind, rather than stop the canopy flying altogether. As a result, maybe the swooper is fooled into thinking he's too high as the amount of input required was less? No more speed was induced in the turn; but instead of going from say 50mph to 0mph, the canopy is going from 50mph to 20mph (where 0 and 20mph are the wind speeds respectively) -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Craig raised an interesting question: why was the PC size changed? -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13