K763

Hey Rhonda Lea- I've been reading your responses for some time now, and have come to the conclusion that you are entirely too educated, well read, and intelligent to truly fit in here. "Casting pearls to swine" although I'm not well read enough (or memory challenged) to fully reference that quote here, it seems suitable to express what I'm trying to say. Right now Karen the Person (not Karen from BR) is on this trip about separating religion and politics, because I don't see how it's fair to force all of us to live by Christian values when we may or may not be Christian. And right when I think the melding of politics and religion has reached catastrophic proportions, HERE COMES RELIGION INTO BASE! I think I'll go do the "Doux without a friggin' rig. K

Hi Johnny, I also come in Peace (not piece, not now that my bones are all knitted together again...) I totally agree with Johnny's thought process here. We do need to have EVERY detail of every jump on our side, including the bands we use on our tailgates. I have agreed with this school of thought since day 1 of BASE jumping. The reason I put up such a fight over it was clearly expressed by dride (who ever you are, thanks!) that WE NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for ourselves when jumping. My major issue was that the people that had problems (the three that I know of) were using the black bands incorrectly, therefore causing their own problems. Pointing the finger and blaming the black band, or the Multi, for that matter, is NOT the way to save your life. The way to save your life is to accept responsibility, remain teachable, know your gear, know how to pack appropriately, inspect your gear, and no when to say NO to a jump that you REALLY want to do. And even when all of those factors are correct, you can still die, BECAUSE YOU CHOSE TO JUMP OFF A CLIFF. What are you anyway, completely stoopid???? (Whuffo reaction). I love you Nick DG, and DO, (where ya been, DO? I miss hearing from you!!!) thank you for your support on this freakfest. It is hard to be the one that comes under fire when the fit hits the shan. I would have LOVED to have seen that rig before it was jumped. I would have been all over that like flies on cowpatties! I know the owner of the rig, by the way, and when I see him he's gonna get a large piece of my mind and the sharp edge of my tongue. Ditto for the guy that borrowed the rig from the owner. (Which wasn't the guy that jumped it.) But just to make a point to Johnny, if a guy is habitually making "slight human errors" on his business in BASE, I do believe his days are quite numbered. Also, it usually is NOT just one slight error that causes a serious incident; it's usually a string of things that go wrong to add up to the total. I think it's important for us to not be complacent and allow slight human errors to creep into our systems. If we do, we're setting ourselves up. All in all, I believe this was a very valuable thread. I would like to thank Tom for his excellent moderation on this thread...(Tom, this must be your full-time job!) That being said, I would just like to remind everyone that we manufacturers/employees do NOT have the time to spend on these forums to address every issue. Please contact your manufacturer directly when you have concerns. I look forward to seeing most of you on the edge someday soon. As always, be safe, have fun, and soft landings. K

YES, ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Yes, it is possible that the added snatch force of the pilot chute after a 2 second delay could have freed the Multi sheath from the black band. For sure, 1/2 second was NOT enough snatch force to accomplish this. This rig was configured properly, according to BR's recommendations. Quote This is the second time I've seen this comment. IT IS NOT A TRUE STATEMENT. I saw the rig right after the jump and it WAS NOT rigged according to BR specs. The container was rigged appropriately by the time I walked away from it, however. K

Yeah, that's Wellington, all right! I know he's here in SoCal somewhere, but I doubt he hits this forum (smart man, it would seem from the wars going on lately....) I can try his phone number tomorrow and tell him you're looking for him. K Apex Perris

WEBSITE UPDATE! Our website www.basicresearch.com has now been updated! There is a whole new page on the Multiple Bridle Attachment including deployment photos, which explains the concept of the Multi and shows how it works. The press release on the black bands has also been posted, along with a few other changes. Go ahead and check it out! Sincerely, Apex BASE Perris

I don't get it. Certainly there are people out there with far more jumps than me that use Black rubberbands on their tailgate without problems, but the potential problem is indisputable, and so very easily avoided. Of course not! I'm surrounded by pounds and pounds of every type of band imaginable. It is the easiest thing in the world for me to pick a handful of something else. I'M BESIDE MYSELF BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO BE MISSING THE POINT! BOGGLED INDEED!!!!!!!

I think you know a Belgium dude who were really lucky not to get hurt on a tailgate hang up on black rubberbands.This were spoken about aprox 1 year ago. Yes, I'm very familiar with this incident; I saw the video. The jumper took 3 wraps on the tailgate for a very low static line jump. The opening forces were not enough to blow the 3 wraps off the tailgate; he pumped his brakes which opened the tailgate and he flared and landed. This is a situation where the packing was at fault, not the band. This jumper had no training and no mentor. THIS WAS NOT A BAND PROBLEM. IT WAS A PACKING PROBLEM. Two wraps of the band would have been sufficient. Please don't assume that I am trying to push the black rubber bands for use in BASE. I could care less what everyone uses as long as it works. The black band has worked on the tailgate flawlessly for years, and I still have not heard of a legitimate instance where the band was at fault for a hang up. Yet I see the black bands being demonized because people did not use them appropriately. It's starting to feel like a witch hunt, which is what I'm trying to avoid here. We need to use common sense, know our equipment, components, and accessories, and use them in the manner they were intended. Personally, I will continue to use the black bands on my tailgate because they work, they last, and have enough of the buggers to last me the rest of my life. I am NOT into littering our precious sites with rubber bands that take decades to biodegrade. I will be changing the Multi Sheath stow bands in my containers for the beige "barely there" bands, however. Peace, K

The advantage of using a black band girth hitched to the tailgate is that you can use the same band for many jumps. I once had one last past 50 jumps. This is (a) easier, since you don't have to carry a bag of rubber bands around, and (b) more environmentally friendly (how important that is to you is a personal decision) because you don't leave rubber bands at the bottom of objects. What I don't understand about this part of the discussion, is what is the big fear of a tailgate hang up? Am I missing something? Did someone almost die from using a black banded tailgate appropriately? I have not heard of one single instance of this, so I'm confused as to why everyone is so adamant that the black bands on the tailgate is a bad idea. Please enlighten me; I need this information. Thank you.

The black bands were originally sourced for the Tailgate. In fact, in our computer, the item is literally "black tailgate bands". I will continue to use them on the tailgate, and only use 2 wraps on the lower stuff. I believe Todd also agrees with this. I'll let you know if he thinks differently. K

Thanks guys, for your support. This does really suck. Ray, I have pounds of the black bands left, how many do you want? Russel, I will still be using the black bands on my Tailgate WHICH IS THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THEM TO BEGIN WITH. Has anywone had problems with them on the Tailgate besides BelNic? In any case, all is well that ends well. Y'all can use your tight black bands to shoot your pal in the ass when his back is turned, or to train your cat or dog or kid. Hey, if some smart carpenter out there wants something to do, he could design a rubber band gun that uses these black bands. I have other ideas, but probably not ones that would pass the moderator....(use your imagination...) I'm going home. It has been a loooonng day.. K

We purchased ten pounds of bands from Ralph in Sept. 2003, and still have a few pounds left. I guess the longevity of these bands speaks for itself; which is why they are so good for the tailgate, but as we've seen, for the Multi purpose baaaaad juju.... K I would make a joke about buying them on the black market, but I doubt that type of humor would be recognized right about now.....

Thanks Tom. We appreciate that. Karen

PRESS RELEASE!!!! Apex BASE Perris, formerly Basic Research, Inc., announces the following advisement regarding Multiple Bridle Attachment stowage in any/all BASE specific containers: It has come to our attention that the black rubber bands (Skybands by Ralph Ponce) may not be suitable for stowing the Multi Sheath within the container. The black bands are so strong and unbreakable that too deep of a bite on the Multi Sheath can cause a deployment hesitation, creating a pilot chute in tow malfunction. From this point on Apex BASE (BR) strongly urges all jumpers with Multi to stop using the black bands in the tops of their containers, and instead use the small beige skydiving stows available through many skydiving shops. If you prefer, you can also cut the bands in half lengthwise, creating a "barely there" band. The desired result of stowing the Multi Sheath in the top of the container is to help stage the deployment of the bridle, the Multi Lines and sheath, and the parachute. This stowage is in no manner meant to reef the parachute in any way. Firmly constricting the Sheath can and will lead to the p/c in tow malfunction. Please mention this press release to any of your friends that have the Multiple Bridle Attachment option on their FOX or FLiK canopy. Please call us at (951) 940-1324 or visit our website at www.basicresearch.com for more information.

Hi Everyone.... First of all, I must apologize. The thread about the black bands was on BLINC magazine three weeks ago, not here. This is the link, I hope it goes clicky: http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22392&highlight=black+bands The black bands were originally brought into our product line because we found them to be superior in relation to the tail gate. Then, because we had them on hand, we began using them in other areas, such as the multi. When it became clear that the black bands may be hazardous in relation to the Multi, we immediately stopped recommending their use, we bought other bands for that application, and began putting the new bands into our products. This occurred about 3 weeks ago. We did not give one single thought to the cost of this band or that band, NOT ONE! It is quite insulting for anyone to think that we would jeopardize a person's life to make an extra 5 bucks here and there by selling black rubber bands. If we had so little concern for safety and were that greedy, I'm sure BR would have folded long ago from pure bad karma. When you guys say such things, I hope you realize that you are completely dissing some of the people that have given their lives to making this sport safer and more fun for everyone. They don't drive Porches or BMW's, or live in fancy houses. They live more modestly than most of the jumpers they cater to. We are all just people enjoying an extreme sport, and a rare few have made it their livelihood, not from greed, but from love of the sport. To think otherwise is pretty much sacrilege, IMHO. A press release is a good idea, and it will be done. The one thing I wish everyone agreed upon is that we are all on the same side here. We all want to savor the freedom of jumping off things and feeling more alive than any other humans on Earth. It saddens me when these discussions degenerate into insults, attacks, and laying blame. The fact is that we are all personally responsible for our choices, be it driving too fast, smoking cigarettes, not doing gear checks, or jumping antennas in low fog. All of these things can kill you, is anyone to blame? Yes, the person that made the decision. Basic Research, now known as Apex BASE Perris, will continually strive to better it's products and services, discover or invent better ways of doing things, educate the jumpers that are affected, and listen to the feedback we receive from the field. Your input is vital to this process. Please continue to contact the developers and manufacturers of BASE gear and give them your thoughts. If you see something that looks dangerous, mention it! And please, remember that as businesses, gear makers don't have all the time in the world to surf the Boards. Please make the effort to contact the manufacturers directly, rather than wait for a post on a Board to come to their attention. I say this for all the manufacturers, not just Apex. In order for BASE to be as safe as possible, we need to continually communicate with each other and make calculated changes as the need arises. And finally, if all does go wrong and you go in, will you regret your decision to jump? If you can't handle that possible eventuality, then you probably shouldn't be in BASE. After all, it is a life-threatening avocation, no matter how safe the gear, the site, the conditions, etc. Every time you jump you take your life into your own hands. For me, that is the bottom line that leaves me feeling free, empowered, exhilarated, and at peace with my own destiny. Be safe, have fun, and soft landings! Karen Thomas BASE #763 Apex BASE Perris Basic Research, Inc.

QuoteI just think that that's not about the big, very famous and respected by everybody companies. (I remember the Karen's words about BR who felt itself good enough even getting no discounts and free gear

Yeah, having Adolph Hitler's birthday has it's downs, that's for sure. The Columbine High School massacre happened on April 20th, which totally sucked for them and for me, and radical Neo-Nazis like to do stuff on his birthday, stuff that I don't like. That's why I've been so glad about the whole chill herb thing around 4/20. It kind of raises the average, if you know what I mean. I met a girl at Bridge Day that has the exact same BD as me, same year and everything. We took a photo in the ladies' room. Jenn, I hope you get either #969 or #999! (and I knew it was you but didn't want to blow your cover). Have fun, kids! K

Hi All! Just a quick note to let you all know that there will be new stuff posted on our website regarding the Multi, it's design intention, pros and cons, photos, and tech news on the rubber bands. We did already mention to STOP using the black bands approximately 2 weeks ago (Tom, can you help me find that thread?) and switch to the beige skydiving bands. I'm sorry that Peter had such a scary experience; I'm sorry that the person that loaned the rig did not have the new information; I'm sorry that the borrower/jumper did not check the pack job and ask questions on the unknown equipment; and I'm very happy that Peter lived. Basic Research continues to stand behind all of it's products 100%, and would like to remind everyone that any equipment is unlikely to perform appropriately if it is not understood, rigged, packed, and used according to the manufacturers intentions. As far as any culpability issues go, probably 30% of the responsibility goes to the manufacturer to keep abreast of potential problems and educate it's users, 30% lies with the owner to maintain his gear to current industry standards, 30% lies with the jumper to check the gear before jumping it, and 10% lies with Lady Luck. Good thing for Peter, Lady Luck was on his side, since 60% of the mix was against him. Again, we invite you to check out our website as early as this evening for news and information on this topic. And as always, our door is open for your visits, phone calls, or e-mails, and we sincerely encourage you to contact us on this issue or any other issue you may have questions about. Open communication and the sharing of knowledge is key to everyone having a fun, safe, and exhilarating experience in this crazy, wonderful world of BASE. Sincerely, Karen Thomas Apex BASE Perris

Hi Kris- I test jumped a FLiK 220 in my Javelin...it is supposed to hold a 150-190. I had no problems getting the 220 in the container, and I packed it as close to BASE as I could (no bag, small mesh slider up, and 36" p/c.) I did hop 'n pops, gradually taking longer and longer delays in order to assess the opening forces. I think you'll have no problem getting the 220 into your Mirage, and since you're training for BASE, do as much as you can to duplicate BASE packing. Karen Apex BASE Perris

Hi Nick, and all! I mentioned to a girl in Moab this weekend that maybe she'll be BASE 1000. She said she was hoping to get in before that, but then she agreed that being #1000 would be pretty cool. The guy who got 1000 at the SBK got free membership for life! Lucky guy! As for me, I have the coolest BASE number there is other than #69, and #666. Mine is 763, which has several notable qualities. First, my favorite number is 7, and I was born in 63. But even more cool is something I just learned from Iiro. Iiro came by to drop of a copy of his new production, "The Ground is the Limit", and he also gave me a beanie with his company logo on it. It is the number 763, which is the dimensions for a gravehole. 7 feet long, 6 feet deep, 3 feet wide. Now, add to this that I was born on 4/20, and I must be just numerologically lucky. Oh, I guess we won't talk about the shattered leg off the B that qualified me for my base number...(be careful guys, make sure your skills are up to the challenge, base number be damned!) love ya all, K

Hi Konass! This is Karen from BR! We saw your post and would like to help you with your question. Could you please contact us at support@basicresearch.com with the serial number of the canopy, and how many jumps you think are on it? We'd like to look into the matter and see if we can help. Adam made a good point that the age of the parachute can be a large factor. If the lines are stretching out of trim, all kinds of weird things begin to happen. We look forward to hearing from you, Karen & Todd Apex BASE Perris (formerly Basic Research)

Hi All- Russel mentioned that he brought his bridle out the middle of the flap, then set the top pin, then the bottom pin. Todd and I played around with this configuration and found it to be workable. It is better for the longer tracking dives to have the bridle routed out the center, as it is then NOT near the top of the pin flap and susceptible to the air stream. It is not as good for head high attitude deployments. Make sure to leave plenty of slack that you lay on top of the pins and secure by tucking in the pin flap. Be careful to NOT tuck the bridle with the pin flap, especially around the lower end of the pin flap. K PS...this applies to the Vertex and Vertex 2, as we don't have a Gargoyle to play with.

There's a new section called Tech News, in the left pane under the heading Reference. The pictures of the two new rigs are in their respective pages, Prism 2 and Vertex 2. There is also a canopy logo section called Custom Logos in the left pane under the Equipment heading. I hope you find everything ok! K

Hi Yuri, Hi ALL! Todd gave me the following explanation of the difference between ground launching and paragliding, as explained to him by Jim Slaton: In paragliding you're normally in a seated harness, and are attemping to get lift and stay aloft as long as possible. In ground launching you're not in a seated harness, and you're attempting to glide down the slope as long as possible, as seen in "blade running" events, rather than trying to get lift and stay up there forever. Ground launching sounds really fun! There's this great rock in the mountains east of me that is just shy of being BASE jumpable, but could definitely be a location for ground launching. The only thing that makes me nervous is how many TREES there are on mountain slopes. You know, me and trees don't get along very well when a parachute is involved... See y'all in Moab! Remember, bring food for the feast! K