Kamkisky

Yeah, simple physics suggests any abrasive force from rubbing along sand would take out the rubber bands along with the rotten edges of the bills. I don’t see how that could even be argued. It’s obvious. Any theory that states the bills rotted elsewhere, then floated downstream has to explain the shards. The rotted edges of the bills would be lost in any river float/sandy bottom theory. Unless the claim is some minor rotting occurred first, then the river ride, then more rotting in place at Tena Bar. That takes out a lot of other theories though and leaves you with the money being somewhere just upstream rotting until it moves to Tena Bar to rot some more…but…how do the rubber bands stay on? Again, it makes no sense. The rubber bands in good condition adjust to the size of the package and when the package volume is reduce the effectiveness of the bands is reduced. How would they survive a river ride after some rotting? The bands would not is the answer. The simplest explanation is someone buried it at Tena Bar. All it requires is a reason, there are no other obstacles. The other transport methods have so many contingencies, it strains the imagination.

“The money was rounded off about 50% around the outside of the packets. I have seen buried money images and it doesn't look as uniformly eroded as TBAR money. The shards don't account for the outer erosion. Palmer suggested tumbling, we don't know for sure but it is consistent with tumbling end over end. The money looks like a wet bundle rolled end over end along a sandy river bottom.” How does the edges of the money get removed by tumbling end over end on the sandy river bottom but the rubber bands survive? That makes zero sense. Your position is the money did not rot in place?

It was commonly used enough for this new transplant family to be BBQing there. There’s literally someone there when the FBI are searching. The beach is accessible by water, everyone talks about the road for some reason. Anyone with the right sized boat can get there without going past a Fazio. I’m not saying it’s for sure he wanted it found. Under the ceremonial theory he might have buried it without the intent it be found. Civilizations across time and the global have ceremonies that from a resource allocation perspective are insane. Burying 6k out of 200k is not outlandish by these standards. Under the FU to the feds theory he’d want it to be found, same for the communication to Tina concept. And no matter where he put it people could say there were a million better spots. I do know this, if I want it to be found on that specific beach but need to be discrete about how I’m doing it, I want it buried just below the surface of the sand too. I’d just setup some gear and slyly get a little hole dug, drop it in, spread some sand and gather my gear and leave over the course of an hour or two. Just a guy out fishing. You could be 30 feet from me and not notice. And what would I expect to happen? I’d expect someone to eventually find it (while I’m long gone), which is exactly what happened. Buried things on beaches get found, happens all the time…it’s the nature of sand. If it was buried in a backyard or field or woods it’d be different. As for the tumbled edges, aren’t those the shards? The money rotted in place, if it rotted somewhere else to the point edges fall off in water there wouldn’t have been shards of all sizes. The tumbling would have washed all that away and you have what the photos show after the Ingrams washed it. The evidence suggests none of the other theories. We have to make those up. We need to invent other people, miracle dredges that are gentle enough for bundles of cash to stay together, money falling from Coopers pocket, paper bags, etc. It’s all made up. We know Cooper had the money. We know the six grand shows up at Tena Bar. We know he was polite to Tina and offered her money. We know the bar is reachable by water and the beach is used for recreation. I see a pattern forming here that requires no inventing things to discern.

Also, money bundles sink. The bottom of the river is littered with debris and trash. It’s not getting far before finding its snag and resting place at the bottom. The money just wouldn’t travel far or last long in the river. It’d of had to of come from just up stream and it would have needed to not be in the water until it floats down. And you need a high enough flood stage (debated) and it’d have to get buried in sand (is that even possible?). That bank money bag isn’t lasting years in the PNW either so it’d have to have been stored in a different bag/container. There's just so many obstacles to the floated down river theory. It’s not overcome-able. Meanwhile, the somebody put it there theory only requires a reason why…the rest of it works just fine. Way less obstacles.

Tena Bar was a well known fishing spot and recreation area. There was a grey bearded dude there fishing when the FBI showed up. It’s anything but one in a million. You put something on a used beach and someone will eventually find it, which is exactly what happened. Also, it wasn’t out at the waters edge, it wasn’t intended to float away. My two cents, it likely took longer to find than Cooper wanted…maybe he didn’t account for the cows and it got stomped down lower than he left it, so it took longer to surface. As for T4T, hell of a coincidence. Then it’s the same amount Tosaw says was offered. Second hell of a coincidence. How many coincidences are we going to over look before we accept the evidence?

If a fantastic suspect arises who is 5’9” or 6’1” I think the vortex can handle it. That’s actually a big range in real life and likely not generally mistakable, but 50 years on we have to use a wide view, and the witnesses had a variance so we are justified in doing so if most other things align. Ultimately though it’s a variable each person gets to set within reason…the FBI can have a standard. Ryan can have a standard. You can have a standard. It’s all good…it really comes down to the rest of a suspect’s case. Braden is tiny and considered a quality suspect…it happens. Does his height help his case, no. Did it prohibit his case being made, no. It’s like eye color or accent, there’s some wiggle room (brown or hazel/Ohio or Kansas).

The funny part is you both think Cooper is within two inches…the margin of error. Cooper is taller than Tina (I fail to see a counter argument), but he isn’t unusually tall for the period 6’2’’ +. The middle range for Cooper is 5’10” - 6’ (where you both have him), not short but not abnormally tall for the era. It’s another Cooper is basically an average dude stat. If we have to lean one way it’s likely taller IMO given witness statements but it’s all in the wash…a 5’9” suspect (barefoot military measurement at 18 or younger) and a 6’1” suspect (in shoes) are within the margin of error. One inch outside the median doesn’t determine Cooper. The argument is upper range or lower range. This reality hurts tall suspects as much as shorter ones. Yeah, there are more short people than tall but the facts we have don’t change. Cooper is likely 5’10”-5’11”. YMMV. Everyone can have their own standard…as long as it is not insane.

Melvin Wilson and a Melvin Fisher Im not familiar with Melvin Cooper? Also, I believe Ryan posted a stat about height guesses generally being within two inches. Posting a screenshot of him guessing Darren’s height within two inches only supports that concept. My two cents…Cooper was taller than Tina. She would have noticed if she was looking him in the eye.

“Cooper knew the plane had fuel. He knew the plane could make it to Mexico. He has the money. He has the chutes. Cooper can utter one sentence and the final piece of his initial plan happens and they go to Mexico. My question to you is simple…why doesn’t he utter that sentence? “ I’m almost with you but I’m still not seeing the answer to this. Why doesn’t Cooper complete his plan? One sentence away…

A coastal route for the Mex/Reno route was a legit option. FACT —— Yes, it’s a legit route for the plane to fly. Cooper thinking it was legit for his purposes is an assumption. Cooper agreeing to it is the counter factual you are just sliding into the factual. He never agreed to that AND he didn’t complain when they went south. Cooper never gave any input for a route other than Mex/Reno. FACT —- Yes, both south (Yuma too). That’s the input. It’s all the input he needed to give. A coastal route for the SF/LA route was a legit option. FACT —- Again, yes for the plane, it is an assumption that Cooper would have accepted a coastal route. Cooper said SF/LA was too small. FACT —-You meant to big and yes, but so what? They went over numerous airports, he was by definition going to have to deny some for some reason. I’m still struggling to live in your theory. Cooper doesn’t initially care about the route because he isn’t going to jump early but go straight to Mexico first. Ok. Got it to this point. Then, for some reason -you have stated miscommunication- Cooper agrees to abandon Mexico and go to Reno. Once Reno is agreed to he decides it’s better to just jump before Reno (good thing he wasn’t on the coast route ehh). Cooper then jumps at random. Here’s what I don’t get…why did Cooper give up on Mexico so easy and allow himself to be forced into a new plan that forces him to do a random jump in Washington (long ways from his initial goal of Mexico)? Cooper knew the plane had fuel. He knew the plane could make it to Mexico. He has the money. He has the chutes. Cooper can utter one sentence and the final piece of his initial plan happens and they go to Mexico. My question to you is simple…why doesn’t he utter that sentence?

“No, that is not the point, you are straw manning, they discussed a coastal path so it was a legitimate route for the plane. You kept denying this.. claiming some specific path from Cooper,, you are wrong.“ It’s a legit route for *the plane* under normal circumstances. Does that mean *Cooper* would have agreed to going west and down the coast? Again, it clearly does not. Thinking Cooper accepts a coastal route is the assumption.

Because NWO discussed a coast route means Cooper would have been ok with it. Does that make logical sense? Of course not. The pilots considered going out the front window too. Maybe Cooper considered sticking his pistol in the cowboy’s face. Lots of people considered doing lots of things..so what? The fact is everything Cooper stated or agreed to is south. That’s irrefutable. Sure, you could fly east first and then south, or west first and then south. They could have flown north out of Seattle too, anything could have happened. What did happen is Cooper stating the plane is to leave Seattle and go to southern destinations, it did. He then jumps at the first sign of civilization, into perfect farmland. Also, I’m lost on your geography. All these mountains are under 150 miles from the coast.

I’ll start here: “To claim by not giving instructions he didn't want to go the coast is an inversion of logic.“ This is your claim just framed in the negative. My claim is Cooper wanted to go south. That means the plane leaves Seattle and flys south. This is the only direction he ever requested or agreed too. The assumption comes in stating Cooper would have been fine with a coastal route (jumping or not)…that’s your assumption. You keep saying Cooper didn’t give a path. Yet he repeatedly states and negotiated a path…all south. I think what you mean is Cooper didn’t specify v23, ok. But he didn’t have to. I’ll give an example of why in a second. Regarding this 150 wide range flying south, to achieve this the crew of 305 would have needed to agree to go mountain top dodging, all of the mountains listed are within the 150 range to the coast. Several significantly closer (like half). To fly south up to 150 miles wide from the coast 305 would be bobbing a weaving through mountains taller than 10k ft. Now…I’m not an aviation expert so maybe this isn’t a problem and they would comfortably do so. But from newbies look it seems problematic to be flying in a dirty configuration, at night in cloud cover, in a jet hovering barely above stall speed while playing pinball with multiple mountains which have unique effects on wind and weather. Maybe I’m wrong…I await an expert aviation person’s opinion. Back to the stated path…I’m skyjacking in SF. My plan is to jump into the Central Valley of California. I tell them to fly to Denver. They negotiate Salt Lake. I agree if they will fly in my jump configuration the whole way. What have I lost? Zero. My plan is the same. Take off and go west, any other direction and I’m reminding them who has the bomb and we are trying it again. When I see the lights of the next metro west, Sacramento, I know the terrain all around it and I know I can jump into farm land. Notice…I didn’t need to give a victor airway to achieve my exact goal.

For fun let’s take a look at the cousin of Battle Ground, directly west on the coast under V27. A place called Cape Falcon Lookout. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ksi1xfjNhcGBQp3h8 (Google maps) Little different than the slightly undulating farm lands around the DZ. Cooper never picked anything on the coast. He is wearing a parachute. Jumping the coast at night is legit suicidal, I don’t need to be a skydiver to know that. There’s millions of ways to die, basically endless possibilities. It’s not guaranteed death, but it’s absolutely rolling dice on your life. Allowing a plane to fly V27 for a parajacker makes no sense.

Cooper never said don’t fly to Canada. He never said don’t fly to Idaho. He never said a lot. What he did say was clear. Mexico. Which is south. Then he agreed to Reno, which is south. And he agreed to Yuma, south. There is a discernible pattern. Cooper wanted to go south. There’s not a shred of evidence he wanted any other direction. Now imagine they pick V27 and the plane takes off and heads west. Cooper does or says nothing? Imagine the plane heads north? Silent Cooper? Imagine it veers due east at takeoff…Cooper twiddles his thumbs? Come on…he couldn’t have been more clear. Go south. He repeated it. If the plane goes a different direction that’s the funny business he warned about. There is only one stated and agreed upon direction throughout the skyjack after reaching Seattle…south. Additionally, west is the worst option for Cooper or any parajacker. He’d be better off going north or east. I’m not getting where Fly is coming up with this 150 miles range for flying south. Flying south from Seattle you quickly encounter Mt Rainer…14k ft. Then Mt St Helens which at the time was 9,600 ft. If one wanted to go east and do some mountain dodging in triple cloud cover there’s also Mt Adam at 12k ft. Then just south of Portland is Mt Hood 11k ft. Flight 305 flying at 10k ft is wedged in on the east. Mt St. Helens is less than 100 miles from the coast. Mt Rainer is about 100 miles to the coast. Portland is about 50 miles from the coast.The plane only has to go the agreed upon direction and Cooper is heading over/near Portland. He absolutely set parameters and those parameters worked. Cooper knew the direction and flight time. He knew the area from the air (Tacoma). He knew it on the ground (McChord). He could see I-5 as a guide. He could see the darkness until he sees the lights of BG. He could see the metro lights of Portland. He gets the stairs open in advance of BG. The oscillations start when the lights of BG appear. There’s no mystery here. It’s a simple plan that put him jumping into farmland and not the coast or mountains. And…Reno is West of LA.

Just my take. New eyes are sometimes helpful. A guy parajacking a jet, who has got rid of the passengers, put on the chute and strapped the money bag to himself, and is focused on getting the aft stairs lowered, likely cares if the plane is flying over water. Seems straightforward to me. Parachuting over water seems like a bad idea, just my newbie perspective. As for he did nothing to stop them from flying out over the ocean…he did. He told them where to go, every option he gave/agreed to was south, the ocean is west. My theory is he planned to jump (thus the chute being on) and he planned to do so south of Seattle (not west or north or east). I’m not dismissive of the idea of Mexico. Hell…he said fly to Mexico. But, there is a difference between Cooper wanting to go to Mexico and Cooper wanting the plane to go to Mexico and the authorities to search all the way down to Mexico. I don’t think skyjackers are always sharing the full story or telling the full truth. It’s part of the occupation.

I struggle with the concept of a guy literally wearing a parachute and money bag not caring about flying over ocean. I think he would have cared.

I know basically nothing more about skydiving than the average person (maybe a tiny bit more since joining the vortex) but I know the coastline of California and the PNW. There is no case to be made a coastal route is beneficial for jumping. Cooper wants to jump -thus the whole parajacking. The two things are opposites, there’s no way to marry them. Imagine parachuting into Big Sur (at freakin night)? It’s laughable. Cooper has zero reason to accept a coast route.

Cooper never talked about V23, only locations which all had a clear direction of south. The reason I ask is because Cooper wouldn’t want anything on the coast, any coastal route is terrible for him. This seems like a reason to reject several large airports. Fun side note: LA is east of Reno.

What are all airports he rejected? SF and LA. Are their others we know he ruled out?

Seems to me Cooper traded the refuel stops resulting from flying dirty for a straight shot to Mexico. And in your theory that was a bad trade, it resulted in him having to jump at random. In my theory that makes sense, get the escape hatch and configuration secured asap. If that means the plane ghosts to Reno instead of Mexico so what. He was never going to be on the plane the next time it lands anyways. Cooper and everyone else knows the more he touches down the higher the likelihood the FBI separates his head from his body with a sniper. One touchdown is all he wanted…and it worked. If Cooper was really planning to go to Mexico he doesn’t need to be wearing a chute and strapped money bag in Seattle. However, if he plans to jump at Portland it makes sense. It’s the opposite of Eric U’s theory on an early jump right after takeoff. In that theory Cooper isn’t prepared enough for takeoff. His level of jump prep and the 30 minute wait all IMO point to a planned jump about where he did. Maybe he had a few areas and visual cues further south if he missed BG/Portland. I could see himself giving himself optionality.

He has the money. He has the chutes. He has a refueled plane that can make it to Mexico. He has won. He is one sentence away from Mexico. Im trying to live in this theory and this is the part I’m not getting. Cooper didn’t forget the plane could make it to Mexico based on whatever miscommunications are happening.

I’m going based off what Fly says was his goal, Mexico… and comparing that to what actually happened. What I’m missing is why he gave up on his goal *when he didn’t have to*? He knew the plane had the fuel and range to get to Mexico. Couple scenarios: 1 - Cooper insists on his original goal. He tells them to fly straight to Mexico. In this scenario Cooper gets what he wants. 2 - Cooper agrees to stop in Reno, which in turn causes him to jump into randomness before landing in Reno. In this scenario he doesn’t get what he wants. Why pick option two? He gains nothing. He loses his main goal according to Fly. He ends up jumping and hoping at random. All of this when he could have just said a single sentence…fly straight to Mexico and I’ll give future instructions. If Fly is right and Mexico is his goal he is one sentence away from achieving it. Yet…. This situation makes more sense IMO if you take the request to go to Mexico not as his goal but as a way to drag out the search area and increase his get away time. With this understanding his openness to negotiate Reno makes sense, it still accomplishes what he wanted. I like a simple Cooper. Point A to B and back to A. Know the terrain, read the signs viable from the air. Jump into farmland. The plane can continue on to Mexico or Reno…he doesn’t care.

I’m just trying to live in your theory. Cooper is flying around looking for a flight to skyjack and take to Mexico. He selects 305. He demands the money, chutes, etc and to go to Mexico. He then changes his plan while he is getting everything he wants. I’m not seeing why he would do that when he knows a fully fueled 727 can make it to Mexico. Cooper initial said no US stops. He clearly didn’t want Reno or any of the others. Cooper selected to abandon straight to Mexico *when he didn’t have to.* He knew the plane could make it there, he knew it had a fresh full tank. What does he gain by abandoning his main goal so easily? It appears in your theory he gains the opportunity to jump into randomness and hope. It’s on you to explain why he decided to pick jumping randomly over a simple sentence…”fly directly to Mexico and I’ll give further instruction then.”

Did Cooper know the plane could fly to Mexico? If the answer is yes, then Cooper chose to negotiate refueling stops over flying straight to Mexico. You can argue it’s over a miscommunication but it’s what happened. Cooper was open to switching Mexico for Reno…when he knew the plane could make it to Mexico flying normally. Whatever understanding he had or the pilots had doesn’t change that Cooper walked in the plane knowing it go make it to Mexico and decided to change to Reno. This is where your theory hits a wall. If Mexico is the goal he gave up on it real easy when he didn’t have to. Cooper could just demand they fly directly to Mexico and no funny stuff. Simple. Done deal…305 goes to Mexico. In my theory he just wants south so he don’t give up on anything. He gains the jump configuration he wants to be operational the whole time…he secures his only line of escape AND keeps the direction he wanted.