cobaltdan

sam: thanks bsa1: we have dealers and sponsored flyers. the sponsored flyers consist of our factory pilots: chuck blue, eric butz, brian harrell, tony cannant, caven warren, jimi halliday (& me). and then industry flyers: ie. some instructors, s&ta's, dz staff and friends. simon mccormack and i also travel to dz's for boogies ,and many times our factory pilots do the same. if you would like us to participate in, or organize a boogie at your dz, please give us a call. thanks, dan atair www.extremefly.com

i would like to add to ramon's lists of do's. do: practice swooping as much as you like UP HIGH. the place to practice is not on landing. landing is for displaying the skills you have practiced safely at altitude. sincerely, dan atair

stir it up: that canopy is a prototype for competition swooping, and it came out of my pack. that modification was designed by howard adams in georgia. it was sent out because conway was in a rush. btw it definately was not slamming me, in fact quite the opposite. caven warren has i believe over 1000 jumps on that exact mod. anyway, conway i think arranged to wait for a demo of a stock cobalt. sincerely, dan atair ps. there was an unsolicited cobalt review, full page in skydive the mag of the british parachute association. very positive comments. after his "likes" the author listed his "dislikes" as openings are too slow for his taste (6 seconds), his demo colors, and having to give the canopy back. (article was written by dave mitchell)

hi criss, yes, we will be making larger patterns hopefully for next season. i am waiting for our laser cutter. cutting the pattern templates is very time consuming and the demand for very large cobalts has been quite low. the alpha/impulse/space airfoil, planform even line trim is identical to the cobalt. improvements have been made to improve and increase the stress pattern on the top skin. this lowers the span wise distortion, increasing lift and efficiency. construction improvements are also present ie. 18 top skin panels, etc. please keep an open mind. consider that we have a 6 year track record with these canopies specifically to newbies and if you are interested, contact us or send me your information and we can arrange for you to try a lightly loaded cobalt. sincerely, dan atair

marcello: thank you for your post. criss, i think our points of view are not as far apart as they might seem. you tried a cobalt at 1.7# . this loading is just crossing over the range we would generally consider intermediate into high experience level. high experience level extends to 2.2# and over 2.2 we consider extreme or pro loading. i still stand by our recomendation of 1.2-1.4 for newbies. of course this is a general recommendation and does not take into consideration the individuals competence. final recommendation is suggested to be made by an experienced dealer familiar with first hand knowledge of the canopies and the individuals flying. please remember atair sells almost exclusively through dzo & dropzone dealers. dealers do not make any more money selling atair canopies over any other manufacturer. we have many instructors flying our canopies and putting newbies on them. we insist that instructors test fly a cobalt at 1.2. this is so that they can have a valid opinion as to whether or not to recommend the canopy and to whom. testing a canopy at 1.7 does not give good reference to decide what it will perform like at 1.2. if you only flew a sabres at + 1.7, i think you would have a similar opinion that they are not good for newbies. if you have the interest, i would love to get you on a cobalt at 1.2 and then talk some more. i would like to point out one more time that cobalts are slower in foward speed than a sabre or safire. i point this out because i want to make clear that load recommendations are specific to the canopy design being recommended. ie a 1.4 loading on one canopy may be suitable and perfectly safe for someone's skill level but unsafe on a different canopy. skill level to wing loading can vary drastically on one canopy design to another. this is both on the low and high side, ie. aggresively flying a cobalt up to 2.4 # is within my safe skill level but aggressively flying a stilletto at 2# falls out of my safe zone. sincerely, dan atair ps. your background sounds very interesting. perhaps we can talk sometime via phone or in person.

hi criss, thanks for your candor. we do make lower performance mains... but i truely believe that a cobalt loaded 1.2-1.4 is a superior choice for many people considering a sabre or safire in the range of 1.0-1.2. the cobalt loaded equally to a sabre or safire is slower, not faster in foward speed, with a flatter glide. i have many dataloged jumps to substantiate this. you can load cobalts lighter but end cell closure will occur, especially on very slow flat turns, inboard side. additionaly i would like to point out a 6 year track record with the cobalt's predecessor canopy (same airfoil and planform) with newbies in europe. i am very concerned about safety in this sport. more & more every day as many people close to me have been seriously hurt in the last year. i do not believe the solution to increased safety is to build dogier canopies. i'll explain why: the accidents i mentioned above were all on very lightly loaded sabres: one friend broken pelvis and 2 broken hips, next: broken ankle, 2 plates 10 screws, next 2 broken ankles, next 2 broken femurs, etc...would they have been hurt worse on a cobalt? in one instance yes, in the rest probably not as they would have had the flare to get out of it. regardless its not the canopy, its the complete lack of education, skills and practice. even with only 50 jumps, a newbie probably has close to 500 minutes canopy flying time. what can you learn in 500 minutes? alot ! but most newbies and many 'experienced' jumpers know suprisingly little about their canopy (ie. simple aerodynamic principals, and routine to determine key flight charateristics) and have even less practice. every canopy flight should contain practice elements up high. anyway, my eyes are starting to get blurry. i spent the day doing wing suit jumps at the ranch. i am very tired and wstarting to stray. i apologize but i will finish this post tomorrow. sincerely, dan atair

>If you weigh 190, your exit weight is probably about 215.. The largest Cobalt made is a 170.. 1.26 wing loading based on a 215 exit weight.. Ok, maybe 1.26 is not ridiculous for a newbie, but on a full elliptical, at 10-20 jumps, it's almost a deathwish.. ---------------------- this is a completely ignorant statement. the only assumption one can make about an "elliptical" canopy is that it is a more efficient wing. PERIOD. what determines whether it is a pocket rocket or a student canopy is a host of different design variables. there are "full" ellipticals that are student canopies and there are "semi"'s that are twitchy pocket rockets. your opnion must be based on the individual design as a whole. there are "semi tapered" "docile" canopies being reccomended that are more elliptical than cobalts. rather than play this manufacturers game of calling apples, oranges just to avoid popular ignorance. we are trying to educate. the predecessor to the cobalt, called the alpha in the us and impulse in europe was marketed by skydepot (us) and performance variable (europe) for 6 years to students and begineers. the only difference between the student version and the pro version was the label and loading reccomendations. we have a tremendous track record with this canopy and begineers. the cobalt is the exact same airfoil and planform. (there are minor improvements that increase rigidity and efficiency, makes for a huge difference at extreme loadings). the skill required to fly a cobalt is equal to that required to fly a sabre or safire. we strongly believe a cobalt is a superior choice for most people in this skill range. to any pocket rocket flyers that are predjudiced into believing that a cobalt which can be flown at extreme loadings is not suitable for a newbie at light loadings. please try one loaded 1.2-1.4 and directly compare it to a safire or sabre at 1.0-1.2. you will find it equaly stable, slower in foward speed, much more efficient ie. flater glide, more lift, much more flare, more difficult to stall and the opening force is lower and safer at higher speeds. sincerely, dan atair

point taken about the message, it now states tuesdays and thursdays its voice mail only. this is required during the season height. tuesdays and thursdays our office personel are able to concentrate on shipping, receiving, billing, ad design, video, etc.. uninterupted. this is key as all the other days the phone rings off the hook. additionally this gives me uninterupted time for design work. as far as a call in advance to let someone know the demo is late. scheduled shipping date is tentative and a phone call is placed just prior to shipping to ensure the person will be expecting the demo. this works best, as if a demo is late we usually do not know when it will arrive only that it is late. we maintain over 30 demos (excluding our dealers demo programs). keeping them actively in play is a primary focus of atair, as on average 8 out of 10 demos become a sale. we have a great staff. intelligent, tallented, and they all go out of their way. definately not people that leave work undone because it is 5pm. the original post in this thread trully upset me. sincerely, dan atair

mike, you left a series of messages on our off day. i spoke to you at the end of the day and explained that heather (operations manager) or leslie would contact you first thing in the morning in reference to the demo ship date. i also explained that the tentative ship date given when you submit the demo form is just that, tentative. if we receive the canopy back late from the person in line before you the schedule changes accordingly. if we need to check or repair a demo the schedule changes accordingly. demos are shiped in order of requests. we do not cut the line by slipping in "more important people". i'm sorry you view this as bad customers service, we view it as being fair and organized. note, almost all of our distributors have 3 of thier own cobalt demos separate from our demo program. dealer list is on our web site www.extremefly.com in speaking with leslie (whom you spoke with today). she relayed you were extremely irate that you could not have the demo now, she offered to try to do you a favor and work something out given your personal schedule and was told to forget it. sincerely, daniel preston atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com 718-596-8641

cobalt aspect ratio is 2.83 icarus vx we measured at 2.78 btw our prototype onxy (cross braced) is a 3.5 aspect ratio. all icarus canopies use a stilletto airfoil. i was told this first hand by gyro. the cobalt does uses a different airfoil and uses "tensioned skin technology" to create a lower distortion airfoil that more closely matches the modeled shape. sincerely, dan atair

a note on the cobalt tandem... turns out the brake lines were being stowed incorrectly. (there are two lines per side, its a bit different). since this was realized, larry tells me the canopy is opening as hoped for. sincerely, dan atair

about 4 years ago we built the first prototypes of the nitro as a sub contractor. i am not sure where they are made now, i think somewhere in shri lanka. the winglets do not function to reduce drag (as they should), rather they were necessary to add stability. non cascaded lines add drag (lines are the second highest source of drag on a canopy). but also reduce the chance of loosing control when you snap a kevlar line or two... this was not a design we wanted to produce. sincerely, dan atair

give larry at skydive suffolk in suffolk virginia a call. i think his site is www.skydivesuffolk.com he has alot of experience with hornets (and cobalts) sincerely, dan atair

typo? 4.7 i think you might mean 3.7 (i was told 3.6) lougi's exit weight is about 160# for a 4.7 on a 46' canopy he would have to wear #60 of weights. sincerely, dan atair

>can high wing loaded canopies be landed straight in? it directly depends on the efficiency of the wing. so it is different from one design to another, and at different loadings. some designs are not safe to land straight in at extreme wing loads because they do not have enough lift, they require an increase in speed to increase their lift to a suitable point. other canopy designs are effiecint enough to provide enough lift without a speed building manuever... cobalts can most definately be landed straight in without building up speed, even at extreme loadings. in general up to a loading of 2.2 you can land a cobalt straight in on a no wind day and stop it on dime (ie. you do not have to surf it). at loadings above 2.2 it becomes dificult not to surf it. there are pictures on our web site showing mike stevens and tony canant landing the cobalt 65 both straight in and hooked. the highest wing loading i personally have landed is a 2.75 (a cobalt 75) and the first two jumps i brought straight in. sincerely, dan atair

interesting, we tried marketing a similar product about 4 years ago. our transmitter was only 1/4" diameter * 1.2" long range 30 miles for 40 hours identical units have existed for over a decade for locating model rockets. problem was cost: $150 for transmitter and $500 receiver, plus, we found that even if the dz bought the receiver, most jumpers were not willing to shell out $150 for 'insurance'. they would rather take their chances. we still sell some though along with our test equipment to various agencies and industrial parachute users. sincerely, daniel preston atair aerodynamics 718-596-8641

hi tefkros, the cobalt is imo a technically superior design and performing canopy to the hornet. openings: cobalts are the only canopy designed for higher speed deployments. we have exhaustively tested them at speeds that would kill the jumper if using another canopy. (to everyone that requested a video: mass mailing is going out tommorow) freefly speeds are high enough to fracture your neck, break your neck, or detach your retina in the event of high speed deployment using conventional canopies. canopies known to open hard are responsible for breaking the necks of several dozen jumpers, many not even freeflying. construction: there is a big difference in quality of construction between the cobalt and the hornet, or even the coablt and many other popular canopies. show them both to your rigger and ask them their opinion. flight: cobalt has a better glide than the hornet, more lift, more flare, different center of gravity, more stable in twists. i am not crazy about the hornets construction but overall i do not think the hornet is a bad flying canopy, just not nearly as good as the coblat. i do not think you will outgrow the cobalt as fast as the hornet. cobalts are built to last and should have a better resale value when you are ready to trade in. given that many peoples first canopy is only for 1-2 years, the cobalt might turn out to be a more economical choice in the long run? sincerely, dan atair

the cobalt uses a different airfoil than the stilletto, crossfire, saftir,fx,vx, etc...actually all of those canopies use the exact same airfoil. all of those canopies were based on a stilletto. different airfoils have different pressure distributions on the top side. this pressure graph combined with many of other vartiables ie. planform, alpha, cg, cl, etc..will determine the performance characteristics of your canopy. by just being elliptical all that means is that it can be a more efficient wing. a stilletto airfoil/planform is such that to reduce excessively high riser pressure the jumper must be weighted under the nose. this has the advantage of decreasing riser pressure but makes the canopy twitchy and with twists keeps the canopy spining. the cobalt uses a new airfoil. the jumper is suspended back towards the wings center of gravity. this makes for a stable, non twitchy flyer that if twisted up can fly straight. other major differences include our tensioning technology. the reason cross bracing increases efficiency of a wing is because it reduces the airfoil distortion on the top skin by pulling down distorting billowing fabric closer in line to the shape modeled. this is not the only way to skin the cat. atair has developed pat. pending technology for inducind a specific strain pattern into the nose and top skin. this reduces the distortion without the negative opening charicteristics of x bracing. tensioning works as is evidenced by the fact that even conservative flyers fly cobalts 20sq' smaller than a stilletto or sabre/ we have landed cobalts at up to 3.6#/sq' / set the current world record for the smallest 9 cell: the cobalt 65 (tony canant has been jumping it constantly at about 2.7#). how many people think it would be possible to safely fly and land a stilletto or sabre 65? it wouldn't be possible as the wing does not have the efficiency required. openings are very different. the cobalts are designed to limit conductance of inflation air from the center cell towards the outer cells, creating a distinct 2 staged opening. the competition cobalts have a multistaged opening (ie 3-5-7-9 cells). this makes for safer higher speed deployments. we have recorded data from live test jumping deploying at speeds up to 228mph. head down deployments to 180mph. at 180mph a premature deployment on most canopies would either seriously injure you or kill you. beginners: canopy is very stable, not twitchy, docile, staged openings create on heading openings (on a stilletto spinning on opening is common because the entire canopy inflates before the slider moves, the leading edge can not fit in a straight line until the slider is down, this creates a violent snaking motion of the leading edge, this can easilly be seen by videoing a stilletto deployment and watching in slow motion). cobalts are predictable and responsive without being too fast. because of the high efficiency the foward speed is low. for equal foward speed to a stilletto or sabre you will be loading a cobalt heavier. this added efficiency wing also translates into a huge flare available in the low end (where you do not have it on a stilletto). hope the above was helpful, i had to pen it in a hurry.. if you have any further question feel free to call me at our office 718-596-8641 sincerely, dan atair www.extremefly.com

hi carl, about the first 20 jumps i put on a cobalt (i was relatively inexperienced) i always has endcell closures on the right side. of course i thought whats up with the canopy? but then i tried a little experiment, i shifted my weight in the harness during deployment to my left side. result end cell closure on my left side now... after realizing i was not truely symetrical during deployment it was easy to pay attention and correct the problem. you can acutally watch the canopy open and stear it with weight shift at your hips throiugh the opening. after about 10 more jumps it became automatic and i rarely now ever get an end cell closed on opening... sincerely, dan atair

actually, atair will not be in chicago either. we have no demo's to bring. they are all out in play... we are working our butts off making canopies: double shifts, 6 days a week for the last month. my only getaway is going to be antennae jumps in florida on monday-tuesday in practice for the world championships in kuala lampur next month. have a blast in quincy everyone!!! sincerely, dan atair

wow, i'm shocked of all the canopies to pass over a cobalt for: a diablo !!! they are in such different leagues i don't even know what to say... dan atair

hello, i don't normally monitor the talk back section. but with about 1800 new messages since i last checked i thought i would poke my nose in. in reference to the poor customer service hear say...that doesn't sound right... heather sinclair (operations manager) and myself go far out of our way to accomodate all our dealers and flyers. as far as end cell closures this is common in 2 instances: 1-light loadings (both sides), 2-uneven weight distribution during deployment (the side with more weight on it). note: even 3 full cells folded under will not induce a spin but rather a slow very correctable turning. which can be corrected to straight flight using either weight shift, risers or toggles. the cells are not completely closed as in some lightly loaded squares but rather the nose on those cells is simply folded under. the best method to clear this is to slowly flare and stall the canopy. this changes the angle of attack of the canopy. pumping the toggles is not effective. blue ones dan atair ps. customer service? how many other equipment manufacturers have their design engineers monitoring web forums and answering questions?

its silly to ask about the brake settings. how would anyone know without flying that particular canopy... after opening this is the first thing you test on any new canopy. ie. flare to level flight to stall. then repeat with varying degree of turns first. this is the beginning of a flight pattern you must perform to a defining the flight characteristics of any new canopy. never, never do anything on landing that you have not practiced at altitude. sincerely, dan atair ps. the fx/loading you are testing does not need to be hooked for landing. it can be landed straight in. if you find it too hot for you, fly it in flat turns, land straight in, and you will not hurt yourself.

btw, the last thing anyone would call a cobalt is twitchy... even at phyco loadings up to 3# / sq ' they are not twitchy... blue one's dan atair

definately demo one. i would suggest the 150 not the 170. the cobalt is a much more efficient wing, it loads heavier than a sabre for an apples to apples comparison. the 150 will not be faster than your 170 in foward speed, it will have a ton more lift, flatter glide and flare. have fun :} sincerely, dan atair