cobaltdan

just look at the icarus advertisments in parachutist. last year the nose is distintly heart shaped when flown. just viewing the icarus ads you can see a progression to recently what is not more distintly fish mouth shaped. there are also pictures posted online from the ranch (i think someone posted the url previously) with some very good pics head on showing the nose of the new crossfires. sincerely, dan

jaybird, there is most definately a problem with many crossfires. and many of us in the industry knew about it long before the ranch. i am glad that you are happy with your crossfire and that it is apparantly a good one. but understand there is a wide tollerence in manufacturing ram air canopies. designs can and have been marketed that are on the edge where manufacturing tollerences can widely effect the canopy. just because you may have an early canopy that seems stable is not proof that the design is. you should be careful of blowing this off, as someone might listen to you disregard this and kill themselves under another crossfire. the original crossfire uses a nose modification where area is closed off from the bottom spanwise half of the inlets. this causes boundary layer seperation on the top skin under some situations, the a-lines loose tension first and the canopy can roll under. taking out the a-b line cascades is a fudge. the main way to solve thisr problem is by modifying the inlet design. i obtained a 1 year old crossfire, and wind tunnel smoked it last week. there is without a shadow of a doubt a problem with this canopy. period, absolutely no speculation here. i have not flown or tested their new ones, so no opinion here, except that i have viewed many pictures from the last 2 swoop competitions and the nose design is definately modified to a more stable design. do not down play this, canopies were marketed with an apparant although overlooked design flaw and continued to be marketed while changes were being experimentally implemented, all without any notification to the unsuspecting costomer and industry. this was dangerous and very unethical. sincerely, dan atair

the defect on the crossfires is not the trim. it has to do with the way the bottom skin on the nose is liped up on the non-loaded rib. look at the advertisments, you will see that the nose design is different on ads from last year. icarus was aware of crossfire design defects for at least 8-10 months. they slowly made modifications to solve the problem, all without a recall of previously sold canopies, without informing anyone of the potential dangers, and while continuing to sell the newly modified canopies. it is completely unethical to commercially release untested designs. skydivers should be able to take for granted that when they buy a canopy is is not actually an experimental prototype. i held back a huge amount of information on this thread (as did several other people on this list). i did go on record with icarus explaining the data we had on a crossfire design flaw asking them to act immediately to ensure safety. could have just gone public and exploited icarus'mistake but this is not how we do business. because this is about peoples safety, we also went on record with skydiving mag to ensure the information would be made public only in the event that icarus continued to act unethically. sincerely, dan atair ps. please excuse my tone, but this is a subject that has upset me considerably. plus i have been to too many funerals this week (we are in nyc).

some types of parachute fabrics can be painted with stain. unfortunately, these are high porosity fabrics. i know its all about fashion, but for an every day canopy it is hard to give up zp materials for a logo design. a better alternative is to have your design reproduced with sewn on applique. in this way you increase pack volume but do not sacrifice performance. we have built custom canopy with designs ranging from red bull, to budwiser, to a tiger motif. cost depends on complexity but can add $500-1000 over the cost of the canopy. sincerely, dan atair

airlocks on all canopies in the future: definately not. there is currently no scientific data whatsoever that airlocks help in turbulence and about 20 years of scientific data (paragliding industry) showing they are not worthwhile. tricell cross bracing on a tandem: why? pros: crossbracing reduces airfoil distortion and increases the airfoil efficiency. cons: opening issues on a tandem you are not concerened with flying the smallest canopy possible, you are concerned with: safety, soft openings, low toggle pressure, stability and good flare. all of these points can be improved on existing designs and not by tricell cross bracing. sincerely, dan atair

the nitron is the same thing as the european nitro which is a copy of the jalepino (with different lines). we built the prototype nitro's for profil about 4 years ago. they just licensed the paterns to precision. our opinion was that it just doesn't compare to the cobalt, hence we were not interested in continuing to produce them. the ones sold in europe i believe are now manufactured in shri lanka. definately try one, then try the cobalt & crossfire and post your opinion. sincerely, dan atair

wing loading is canopy specific. but i agree with you completely. underloading canopies is just as dangerous as overloading them. many student operations signifigantly underload canopies below the minimum acceptable for their design. i have 3 friends that were injurred this way, 2 seriously, while on aff. underloading will only make a canopy so slow, beyond that it just make them unresponsive. sincerely, dan atair

jay moledski...my mistake: a velocity dan atair

i finished eric's cc 120 on friday. he jumped it cold (no practice) in the sky's the limit swoop competition last weekend. the course was downwind and during the morning competition it was 25 knott winds plus gusts. it was pretty unbelievable. a 200' water course up a 5' elevation (water was very low) to a 80' land course. 20' past was the treeline. everyone setup short first few runs and blew mach speed through half the water course past the land blades through the plastic tape fence, skidding on their butt into the trees... eric and jay (flys a vx) quickly rose to the front of the pack and dueled it our for first place. the competition carried over until sunday. i had to leave so i didn't see who finally took first place. i called the dz and they told me there were still going over footage and that it came down to eric or jay and perhaps there would have to be a tie breaker. eric is awal with a cutie he met. when he turns up i will post the results. sincerely, dan atair

the nose on a competition cobalt is completely different from a crossfire. the crossfire has no continuous spanwise tapes on the nose and both top and bottom skins are brought to meet in the center of the non loaded rib. basically the rectangular shaped inlet on a standard 9 cell with rounded corners. the heart shape you see is because the rounded corners are on the non-loaded ribs and they not being braced float up higher. the mod reduces drag, but is non-structural. the compt-cobalt has a continuous tape on top and bottom skin with triangle spanwise cross braces closing the nose to the ribs. it looks sort of like shark teeth. the braces on the loaded ribs are structural spanwise cross braces, the braces on the nonloaded ribs are not structural and only aerodynamic. additionally the a lines are set back and a zig zag bottom skin inlet is formed for opening inflation. the retrofit that some people are doing aka the 'howard mod'. is a standard cobalt with the structural braces sewn on. this was a mod that howard adams started i believe on alphas years ago. like the comp cobalt it reduces drag and cross braces the nose of the canopy, reducing span wise airfoil distortion and increasing efficiency. stane and i designed and built several prototypes with noses similar to the crossfire. we had some trouble with stability in these prototypes in certain conditions. the problem was noticable in designs where the bottom skin was brought up into the inlet area. note: the cobalt is a very diferent canopy than the crossfire with different variables, ie airfoil, cg,cl, etc... i am not saying that the crossfire has this or any other problem. after witnessing the accident and hearing the rumors, i felt better safe than sorry and offered our test data to precision and icarus. i spoke with george galloway last week and offered to send a prototype canopy to him that flew nice with the exception that it could be piloted into a roll under collapse with specific conditions. george was at the ranch last week and is also very upset. even though he stated he is only a 'cut and sew subcontractor, having no design input on these canopies', he is intent on assuring there are no issues, he was appreciative for our test data and everyone will be analyzing the video this weekend. until anything else is discovered, the accident is being accepted as collapse from rotors. sincerely, dan atair

it was not a slam. i said bad in that drag is more. good in that its safer with aramid type lines. simply stating pro vs con. sincerely, dan

i stand by my recommendation that a cobalt @ 1.2 could be a better choice. it will be slower than the hornet. much, much more lift, flare, glide & softer openings. take your advice from someone that has flown the canopies you are considering AT the loadings you are considering. sincerely, dan

that russian canopy has 4 open cells and due to their size could probably be landed with mid section only. inlets are not needed on the sloped cells due to the crossporting. it probably opens quite fast actually, the center section is huge and cut like a reserve. wierd looking... :) btw. true ellipse planforms are possible (onyx) and many paragliders. dan atair

we need to nail down regie (designed the airblades and swoop course of the para-performance games) for some standard courses. rember these are not straight swoop ditches but highly challenging 3d courses set on a diamond pond. this way us east coasters can practice. it does not create a fair field when only people at perris valey can practice on a course prior to a competition. blue skies dan

basically, any canopy that does not use the same cross-section rib on every cell can be considered elliptical. tapered, semi-tapered, ellipticall all mean the same thing: that the rib section is not constant. i keep pointing out that performance of a canopy design is goverened by the sum of many design elements, not just if it is elliptical or not. all an elliptical plan form means is that it is potentially a more efficient wing. still many people do not believe this, all you have to do is look around at a dz. ie. there are heavilly ellliptical canopies that are docile student canopies and there are square canopies that are pocket rockets. ie. the ultra high performance cross braced canopies on the market are very square compared to even many 'semi tapered' canopies sincerely, dan atair

caven warren on our swoop team has i believe 1600 jumps on the smallest nova made. you might want to speak with him. overall the was a large amount of incidents of them collapsing. given that there were some good ones and some dangerous ones i believe the design was very sensitive to construction tollerances. anyway, why take the chance with so many proven canopies on the market. be safe. dan atair

aramid lines tend not to stretch noticably and catastophicly fail at the end of their life, whereas spectra can change dimension enought to put your canopy out of trim providing an indication to change lines. for this reason i do not like the current way aramid lines are being used. people will not change their lines every 300 jumps and this will create a dangerous situation with aramids. people are under the mistaken idea that lines only break on opening. with soft opening canopies you can pull more g's on a hook turn than opening. chances are you will break lines on your final hook. (this has happened on many test jumps). this is a nightmare. you cant cut away and your canopy will range from unsafe to gone. continous lines are bad in that they create signifigantly more drag. the cascaded lines are the second largest source of drag on a canopy. non-cascaded lines are even higher. but non-cascaded lines are also safer when using aramids, as when you snap a line or two, you have a better chance of not loosing the canopy. the idea of using aramid lines comes directly form paragliding and is not new. with so many line groups it was necessary for competition wings to go to smaller diameter lines, that would not go out of trim. the statement that because the lines are thiner a non-cascaded parachute has less drag on its lines than a cascaded with spectra micro-line, just is not true with the current sizes being used. kevlar line that looks like carpet thread has suitable strength but can not be used due to other requirements of using it in parachuting. this line can slice through itself, fabric, flesh etc when used in diameters small enough to signifigantly impact it aerodynamic drag. dan atair

we are not putting out competition cobalts demo's. currently, we are only allowing them out at the pro-level. the market is so small for canopies like the vx, velocity, cc and the potential for harm is so high, when piloted by someone not experienced enough. sincerely, dan atair

thanks ! dan atair ps. we will be jumping wingsuits at the ranch from 22k on friday and swooooping at the sky's the limit competition on saturday......

simon and i were supposed to go and compete but our schedule changed and some of the negative politics surronding the event we took it for a sign. anyway, stane (atair founder), svete, and robert (bird-man) went and will be returning on sunday. i will be glad to post news after then. sincerely, dan atair

onyx picture attached

the current onyx is a design excersise and is to be a swoop competition canopy only. it has an aspect ratio of 3.5 ! the planform is an ellipse, with varying angle of attack and inflated stabilizors. this canopy will probably set a new mark with a 400' swoop. several weeks ago we hit 365' with a competition cobalt. we will probably not release this canopy for sale. we will however release a tribrace based on the proven cobalt planform. as fas as the xaos, icarus is in financial trouble, fernando (simsa)majority stock holder in icarus)) announced that he would pull the plug if icarus was not profitable by the end of the year. two weeks later george (precision)minority stock holder in icarus, and u.s. sub-contract manufacturer of icarus canopies)) announced that they developed their own tricell canopies. the ones i have seen at the paragames and the pondswoop nationals are identical copies of the icarus canopies (planform and airfoil). they made slight construction changes and switched to velocity design nose inlets. nothing new in anyway. george is banking on a stategic move to ensure that icarus is a sinking ship and that precision will be the one to step into their shoes. normally, i would never pass on gossip, but this was told to me first hand by one of the principals. sincerely, dan atair

for the record, we hired the dz rigger at css (leland) to assemble several canopies onto risers. people make mistakes. this is why you always do a line check when connecting risers to your rig. sincerely, dan atair

i would have to agree that a loaded stilletto is a very poor choice for wingsuit jumps. if you watch slow motion footage of a stiletto opening, you will notice that the entire canopy inflates before the slider can come partly down. the leading edge can not be straight as it is constrained by the lines through the slider. it will snake violently and eventually snap straight when the slider is far enough down. this snaking causes off headings and frequent spins. additionally this is influenced by the fact that the weight of the jumper is suspended in front near the nose to lighten riser pressure. this placement of center of gravity to center of lift on the wing creates a stituation where the canopy is prone to continuing to spin after a twist. not what you want when constrained with a wingsuit. without seeing you fly perhaps a cobalt in the range of 1.4-1.8 would be a better choice. cobalts are not twitchy and not prone to spins. deployments are staged ensuring a straight on heading leading edge. they are ideal for wingsuit jumps. jari and robert, inventors/owners of birdman suits have jumped atair main canopies and base canopies for years. now jari is sponsored by icarus and flys a vx (felt icarus could better promote bird-man). jari i believe has about 600 wingsuit jumps on an impulse/alpha (predecessor to the cobalt) and quite a few on a cobalt. i currently fly a skyflyer (LOVE IT!) with a cobalt 95 loaded 2.2. i believe strongly in specialization of equipment, so i and am setting up an old rig exclusively for wing suit jumps with a cobalt 120, longer bridal and larger pilot chute. when you are jumping a wing suit it is all about a super stable deployment. jumping a light to medium loading can make for additional forgiveness when mistakes are made. i love being an extreme canopy pilot, but flying a skyflyer is extreme enough. i prefer to separate the two activities. if you have any doubts of your options/decision contact jari at www.bird-man.com he is an awesome guy and has more wingsuit jumps than anyone. sincerely, daniel atair www.extremefly.com

hi everyone, i have been away at the us pond swooping nationals. i will try to respond to all the posts later tonight. i watched a new friend die in competition yesterday. i'm very upset and trying to read some posts for distraction. dan