cobaltdan

I sent a bunch of canopies for testing out to the houston crew last week (eric butts, craig catfish stanly, brian moffet, & ramon) included was a cobalt 39 (to be used in systems we are building under contract to the Department of Defense), and a biplane canopy (built for fun). Just got back a tape of footage that is pretty mindblowing. for starters they jumped the biplane, nice deployment, looks too wierd flying.... but what really made me smile was eric under a comp cobalt 120 and catfish under a cobalt 39 doing 2 stacks ! the canopy is dead stable and producing so much lift that in partial brakes it can match a canopy 300% bigger in full flight. The video almost looks doctored as the 39 is about the size of a beach towel with a wingspan barely bigger than my height. i was hoping to post pics but unfortunately the video is vhs and i can only frame grab digital video.... sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

you are welcome to have your rigger lengthen them. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

executivechute said on camera that they couldnt live jump test the canopy because of faa restrictions. they showed dummies being static line jumped off of a crane. (and what looked like a sure double femur landing). they are full of #@%! and the reason we wrote an article on ethics and parachutes. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

give me a call in the office and i will be glad to discuss the differences. sincerely, dan preston atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com 718-923-1709 ph Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

we have gathered a huge amount of electronic data on parachute openings using dataloggers, load links, and accelerometers. i have recorded peak forces on hard openings in the worst case exceeding 50g's. A hard opening, (not to mention a hard landing) could definately cause a misscarrige. you will have to decide if the risk is worth it. ps. congratulations!!!! sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

tom, i agree that parachutes are not a viable means of emergency escape from highrises. imo companies like executivechute are unethical and their product in use would result in killing more people than potentialy save. i was interviewed by 20/20 in the empirestate building as was supposed to be executivechute, but they were thrown out of the building for pitching scare sales to people entering the building. it was an interesting sceen, that upset many people. btw. we manufacture a huge number of apex down rounds as paraglider reserves. in general the design is ment to be a second canopy out. meaning you deploy it in addition to and without cutting away your failing paraglider. these canopies tend to oscilate and having 'line laundry' out stabilizes them. sincerely, dan atair Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

these canopies were designed and manufactured by atair. they were manufactured in quantity orders for winchester (gunter) and privately labeled for him. we no longer sell through winchester and our canopies are available direct through our dealer network. for more information visit our web site or give us a call. sincerely, dan preston atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

we are not putting out demo's of the onyx at the moment. we are already booked on orders for the onyx sight unseen. once all orders are filled we will complete a demo fleet. demo cobalts and comp cobalts: we have at least 2 of every size. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

dear caerdydd, i am confused by your statement as i have made no such advice on our current line of base canopies. in fact i am still jumping our earliest troll (love it although tom beats me up for it) and have not tried the mdv yet. stane and robert have acumulated a huge number of jumps on the mdv. as far as morpheus they maintain to be our exclusive retailer of base canopies in the u.s. because robert and kathy are so knowledgable and trusted. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

there really isnt any place to base in slovenia, at least nowhere i consider reasonable. best bet is to drive a few hours into croatia for a 100m bridge, on the way to split for a chiminy or to northern italy for the walls. stane (atair) and robert (atair & bird man) are the experts in slovenia. drop them a line. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

jeremy, to explain: we dropped advertising for a year as we had developed enough momentum to do so and we felt it was our best business strategy to divert that advertising money into our military division towards completion of our satellite guided parachute systems. now the reverse will be able to happen, military division putting money back into sports. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

hey kansas, sorry been very busy and havent checked the forum in a while. a few notes on the cobalt. definately give us a call and try a demo. your concerns about oversteer will be quickly alleviated. the cobalt is anything but twitchy. it is very stable, flies big, and does not continue to turn for any appreciable amount after releasing your toggle. flare and glide ratio are second to none, and opening sweet with a huge amount of testing behind them at freefly speeds. there was a comment about the cobalt having a short recovery arc and it being safer to go with a canopy with a long recovery arc. i couldnt disagree more. a quick recovery arc will save your butt, some day. having a short recovery arc does not mean you can not maintain a dive, it simply means that on its own with no control input the canopy will recover out of a dive to level flight in a shorter span of altitude loss. such properties does not mean you are going to initaiate your set up turn lower, you will still do that at a safe altitude, it just means that if you wind up in the corner one day the canopy can react to potentially get you out faster and with less altidude required. as for my recommendation of setups cobalts favor a slow initiated carve, by counter steering in your harness you can adjust the recovery arc from very long to short. if your flying style is fast snap hooks (which imo are not as safe and definately not as efficient for distance swooping) you will not be able to maintain a long recovery arc, as the control input is quickly gone and the canopy will naturaly recover. hope that helps. thank you for your interest. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

a good 3d gps will give you your 'vector velocity'. this is a speed measurement from the delta of two 3 dimensional points in space. this is how we calculate foward speeds. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

incorrect information. skykat is correcting. they posted information about aerodyne under atair. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

already answered. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

hook, i am defining a beginner as an a licence jumper. and student as a non-license jumper. last time: we recommend cobalts as a superior alternative to sabres,safires and hornets. if you are safe to fly any of those canopies you will be equally safe on a cobalt, if not safer as in the event of a high speed deployment. planform i.e. how elliptical a canopy planform is, is not the prime indication as to the skill level required to pilot that canopy. planform does not dictate whether a canopy is a begineers canopy or a pocket rocket. it is the sum total of many design variables that make that determination. knowing only that a canopy is elliptical tells you only that it is more efficient than a similar square, nothing more without knowing the other design variables. most canopies are labled as elliptical, semi, or tapered simply as a marketing tool clasification, not as a true indication of their actual planform shape. there are pro level swoop canopies that are 'less elliptical' than begineer's canopies, and begineer canopies 'more elliptical' than pro level swoop canopies . i am tired of trying to explain this point. if you do not understand so be it, but i do not wish to continue bickering with you. you ask so which is it? is the cobalt a swoop canopy or a beginers canopy. it is both. this is in no way contradictory. what makes the cobalt a good swoop canopy at high wing loading is exactly what makes it a good beginners canopy at low wing loadings. the cobalt is not a particularly fast canopy, but it is an extremely efficient canopy. it has a better glide and continues to generate lift a slower speeds, additionally the top skin is tensioned to reduce distortion. a cobalt can outglide other design canopies 2 sized larger at eaqual loadings. these design aspects allow it to be highly loaded and competitive with higher speed design canopies. we basically made up for speed with efficiency. we later took the design a step further with the comp cobalt by reducing nose drag to allow for higher speed. the result was a 9 cell canopy that ranked 2nd out of 160 tricells. the alpha and space were identical canopies: same airfoil and planform to the cobalt. for 6 years the alpha was highly competitive on the swoop circuit and the space was a popular begineers canopy with a flawless track record. this has been pointed out many times and no one has ever pointed fault with either statement. they just choose to ignore the fact that they are the same canopy. now transpose the newer model the cobalt, (basically the same canopy with construction improvements and minor changes that increase efficiency), and dont play the name game and there are people like you who find fault based on predjudices rather than fact. do you prefer manufacturers basically lie, shaping statements to what the consumer wants to hear. or tell the truth and try to educate if the consumer has misconceptions? since you have entered the sport canopy technology has been significantly advanced, probably more than you realize. the idea that 'elliptical' = negative traits only suitable for experienced pilots is based characteristics of out of date canopies and is simply a misconception today. i will still post the aerodynamics introduction references. please read them and do not take it as some personal slam from me. its not, i think you will learn alot and enjoy them. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

so basically you do not dissagree that the flight characteristics of a lightly loaded cobalt are well suited for a beginner. just that the openings on the 170 need to be addressed: which you know they are. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

it is simply slightly less tapered than the cobalt, otherwise same proven airfoil and trim. we should have our demo fleet completed by end of april. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

the 170 was designed from the start to open faster. this was because it was targeted at begineers. the feedback we received initially towards the 170 was to make it open faster. this is why the 170 is different that the other size cobalts, it was an intential design. as far as introducing the indigo: no matter how great a canopy a cobalt is for begineers, there will always some uninformed people saying "you cant put a begineer under an elliptical canopy, you should try a sabre or safire". i'm tired of explaining that 'planform does not dictate performance skill level, the sum total of many design variables dictate if a design is a pro swoop canopy or a student canopy'. 90% of market buys square-semi tapred canopies. the indigo is directed at this market segment. giving them the expected slightly tapered planform while still providing high speed safe openings, and superior glide and flare to the sabre and safire. it is either that or go back to marketing under 2 different names (re:space, alpha) which i do not really agree with. hook, the cobalt and alpha/space have an excellent track record with begineers. if i accidentally interchanged 'student' with 'begineer' my appologies. again the recomendation is that anyone safe on a sabre,safire or hornet will be equally safe if not more so under a cobalt. we stand behind this recommendation as do many sta's and instructors. also i have several book recomendations for you on basic aerodynamics which i think you will appreciate. unfortunately i am snowed out of the office today. i will try to post them for you tomorrow. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

i wouldnt call them 'wicked bad'....but on the 170 size cobalt: the first stage works as it should and the the second stage opens faster than other sized cobalts. on any other sized cobalt even at high speeds the force vs. time curve reads a max of 4.5-8 g's for stage 1(depends on speed, canopy and loading. we have live jumped cobalts up to 256mph (fasted recorded deployment on a ram air)) then stage2 is a longer duration peak of about 3.5g. on the 170 the force peaks are almost reversed, basically soft stage 1, and a shorter duration pop on stage 2. at slow speeds the 170's can be brisk, at higher speeds they better, anyway due to a couple unhappy campers whom we would like to make happy, we are correcting the 170. we have also received many inquires about selling comp cobalts in larger sizes. so 2 birds one stone: the comp cobalt 170. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

the direct scoop: no such thing as a cobalt 2. the new design was either the onyx or just confusion because we agreed to produce comp cobalts in larger sizes (suitable for lower skill levels) 135-150-170 the standard cobalt is definitely our biggest seller. it is an awesome canopy and imo outshines anything else in its class. introduced at the pia show was our onyx 36 cell, our ruby and indigo. the indigo is a slightly less agressive planform canopy based on the cobalt airfoil available in sizes 135-190 the ruby is a 7 cell canopy also based on the cobalt airfoil. available sizes 120-190 web site is currently being up dated and should have new information in several weeks. we are behind on the site as we have a huge amount of military work which has taken precedence. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

you may want to rephrase the question to be from below 20k' . or better 12k and below. above 20k the air is thin and you will not be able to glide well. at 100 k forget it. not to mention that the longest standing record in aviation history is a jump from that height. if you keep your question to lower altitudes you will not have to figure air density into the equasion and you can have examples of both theory and practice to look at. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

gps repeaters are relatively cheap. as our dataloggers have an internal 12ch gps, for every test jump we make we tape a repeater on the plane. basically it is a small patch antennae connected to a small reradiating antennae and a nicad battery. the reradiating ant. is taped to the inside of the plane and the receiving ant. is either taped to the cockpit window or outside to the fuselage. if attaching to the window make sure it is a clear patch (no metal wires in the glass). sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

we have a 3d ploting software we wrote in labview for our gps data. you can also plot vertical speed and glide ratio. unfortunately we do not have the developers pack yet so i can not make executables for people not running lab view. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)

i have dataloged from a jumps done with a skyflyer and a piggy backed passenger in full head down to gain speed followed by the passenger droping off and the pilot pulling up in the wingsuit. best jump yet reached speeds of close to 280mph and 0 vertical speed after the 'flare'. based on that i do not think it is possible with a single pilot to gain altitude even for a short period or as per this thread perform a back loop. btw there was damage to the skyflyer from these attempts (stitching becoming undone). protracks are great, but the hardware is not up to the task of datalogging for this purpose. the sample rate is too slow to draw definate conclusions. we have used both protracks and prologs as back up to our dataloggers on many jumps and the data between the protracks/prologs never match even amoung multiple protracks in the same mounting location. sincerely, dan Daniel Preston atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military)